Cambodia and Thailand at War

[Swammerdami]

With all sorts of wild news affecting the U.S.A., I wonder if Americans are even aware of combat along the Thailand-Cambodia border. I suppose Aussies are aware, also being in the Asia-Pacific region.

From Reuters-->World-->Asia-Pacific I see only "Cambodia and Thailand conflict: how do their militaries compare?" (Answer: Thailand's military is MUCH stronger, but that shouldn't matter much unless skirmishes turn into serious war.)

Aljazeera's home page links to a Thailand page with a few articles on the war. Excerpts:

More than 10 people, including several civilians, have been reportedly killed in attacks by Thai and Cambodian troops along a disputed section of the countries’ shared border.
...
Thai military sources reported the heaviest casualties in Si Sa Ket province, where six people died during an attack on a petrol station. At least 14 others sustained injuries across three border provinces.

The fighting escalated as Thai forces launched air attacks against Cambodian military positions, while Cambodia reported Thai jets bombing a road near the historic Preah Vihear temple.

CNN gives more information, e.g.

• Thailand launched airstrikes against Cambodian military targets along their long-disputed border, escalating tensions between the Southeast Asian neighbors. Thailand also accused Cambodia of launching rockets into civilian areas. Thailand’s health ministry said that at least 12 people, including 11 civilians and one soldier, have been killed in clashes with Cambodian troops.

• The strikes came a day after a Thai soldier lost his leg to a landmine on the border, prompting a downgrade of diplomatic ties by both Bangkok and Phnom Penh as relations collapse to their lowest level in years.

• Thailand’s Prime Minister Paetongtarn Shinawatra was suspended this month and could face dismissal after the leak of a phone call she had with Cambodia’s powerful former leader Hun Sen, in which she appeared to criticize her army’s actions in the dispute.
...

Cambodia’s Ministry of Culture and Fine Arts [states that] Thailand’s targeting of Preah Vihear temple — a UNESCO World Heritage Site — “may constitute war crimes.” ... The strikes caused “significant damage” to both the “surrounding area and the structures” of the temple, it said. The temple, it added, is a “sacred cultural site and historical legacy of the Cambodian people.”
... Cambodia’s defense ministry said earlier Thursday that a Thai F-16 fighter jet had dropped two bombs on a road near the 11th-century temple as clashes erupted at several flashpoints along the two countries’ disputed border.

With Paetongtarn -- Thailand's youngest-ever PM and only the 2nd female PM (her aunt Yingluk, now in exile, was the 1st female PM) -- suspended, but not replaced, who's running the country? Perhaps her father Thaksin (also a former PM), widely thought to be in charge even before she ws suspended.

The suspension came after someone in Cambodia leaked a telephone conversation between Paetongtarn and Hun Sen, long-time Cambodian dictator and father of the present P.M. Hun Manet. Hun Sen helped the Thaksin when he was in exile. Her telephone call to Hun Sen, a "family friend," seemed to me a logical attempt to defuse the dispute, but caused much anger here since she disrespected Thai generals.

I wish there were some highly respected international figure, e.g. a former U.S. President, who could successfully urge a cease-fire.

 

[Tigers!]

Yes Ausies are aware of the fighting and wonder why?

We realise that there in a world that in larger that USA, Cnada and Mexico.

 

[Tigers!]

With all sorts of wild news affecting the U.S.A., I wonder if Americans are even aware of combat along the Thailand-Cambodia border. I suppose Aussies are aware, also being in the Asia-Pacific region.

From Reuters-->World-->Asia-Pacific I see only "Cambodia and Thailand conflict: how do their militaries compare?" (Answer: Thailand's military is MUCH stronger, but that shouldn't matter much unless skirmishes turn into serious war.)

Aljazeera's home page links to a Thailand page with a few articles on the war. Excerpts:

More than 10 people, including several civilians, have been reportedly killed in attacks by Thai and Cambodian troops along a disputed section of the countries’ shared border.
...
Thai military sources reported the heaviest casualties in Si Sa Ket province, where six people died during an attack on a petrol station. At least 14 others sustained injuries across three border provinces.

The fighting escalated as Thai forces launched air attacks against Cambodian military positions, while Cambodia reported Thai jets bombing a road near the historic Preah Vihear temple.

CNN gives more information, e.g.

• Thailand launched airstrikes against Cambodian military targets along their long-disputed border, escalating tensions between the Southeast Asian neighbors. Thailand also accused Cambodia of launching rockets into civilian areas. Thailand’s health ministry said that at least 12 people, including 11 civilians and one soldier, have been killed in clashes with Cambodian troops.

• The strikes came a day after a Thai soldier lost his leg to a landmine on the border, prompting a downgrade of diplomatic ties by both Bangkok and Phnom Penh as relations collapse to their lowest level in years.

• Thailand’s Prime Minister Paetongtarn Shinawatra was suspended this month and could face dismissal after the leak of a phone call she had with Cambodia’s powerful former leader Hun Sen, in which she appeared to criticize her army’s actions in the dispute.
...

Cambodia’s Ministry of Culture and Fine Arts [states that] Thailand’s targeting of Preah Vihear temple — a UNESCO World Heritage Site — “may constitute war crimes.” ... The strikes caused “significant damage” to both the “surrounding area and the structures” of the temple, it said. The temple, it added, is a “sacred cultural site and historical legacy of the Cambodian people.”
... Cambodia’s defense ministry said earlier Thursday that a Thai F-16 fighter jet had dropped two bombs on a road near the 11th-century temple as clashes erupted at several flashpoints along the two countries’ disputed border.

With Paetongtarn -- Thailand's youngest-ever PM and only the 2nd female PM (her aunt Yingluk, now in exile, was the 1st female PM) -- suspended, but not replaced, who's running the country? Perhaps her father Thaksin (also a former PM), widely thought to be in charge even before she ws suspended.

The suspension came after someone in Cambodia leaked a telephone conversation between Paetongtarn and Hun Sen, long-time Cambodian dictator and father of the present P.M. Hun Manet. Hun Sen helped the Thaksin when he was in exile. Her telephone call to Hun Sen, a "family friend," seemed to me a logical attempt to defuse the dispute, but caused much anger here since she disrespected Thai generals.

I wish there were some highly respected international figure, e.g. a former U.S. President, who could successfully urge a cease-fire.

You would have to dig up one i.e. Carter.

 

[Elixir]

Seems futile for Cambodia.
Is the issue religious or strictly territorial?
I’m pretty sure Thailand should win any shoving match. Is that even in question?

 

[Swammerdami]

Seems futile for Cambodia.
Is the issue religious or strictly territorial?
I’m pretty sure Thailand should win any shoving match. Is that even in question?

Although the total death count remains in the low dozens, I read that 150,000 people or more have been displaced! I'll guess these are mostly Thais, since Cambodia has been lobbing missiles many kilometers from the border.

All-out war will not develop -- knock on wood! hope, hope. Without allies Thailand would certainly dominate any major war, but in a "game" of small-scale war, isn't it a matter of derring-do, rather than who has the most missiles?

China is an ally of Cambodia, and Thailand has USA on its side. The chances are tiny that either super-power will want or "need" to get involved, but with a stark-raving maniac running the USA and desperate for diversion, who can be sure?

Where I live everyone takes Thailand's side in any dispute but I'm not sure whom to blame. The PM of Malaysia offered to mediate a cease-fire with Cambodia happy to agree, but Thailand reluctant. (I can't support any side which doesn't want to cease fire.) Then the Orange Imbecile offered to mediate. Again IIUC it was Thailand that dragged its feet. I can't keep track.

Why did the minor centuries-old border disputes suddenly escalate into a shooting war? Two explanations are offered:

(1) The family faction that has dominated Thailand politics off-and-on for decades -- not to mention names but I speak of course of the leader of the red shirts who terrorized Bangkok and destroyed some large buildings 15 years ago -- and the strong man who has led Cambodia much longer -- a former battalion commander in the Khmer Rouge -- have had a falling out. Once close friends who called each other brother (with the Cambodian strong man offering refuge to the exiled red-shirt leaders), for some reason they've become enemies. Why enemies? Perhaps reason 2 gives the answer.

(2) Some or all of the border crossings between the two countries have casinos on the Cambodian side. (One casino I visited is BEFORE you even get to the Cambodian immigration checkpoint. I don't think an alien like myself would dare exit Thailand and then return without a Cambodian stamp in the passport, but maybe this is routine for Thai visitors to the casinos.)

Anyway, some rich people want to build casinos (with Thai government permission of course) on the Thai side of the border (or elsewhere in the Kingdom?). And Hun Sen naturally opposes that. On either side of the border, the actual casino owners are unlikely to be ethnic Thais or ethnic Khmer. Many or most of the rich people around here are ethnic Chinese; some Chinese are newly arrived, some in the country for generations. Some of these "rich" Chinese are billionaires; some just own a shop or two in a village.

If it seems sick that dozens of civilians should die because someone wants to build casinos, I agree. Fascist Amerika is not the only country with defective governance.

 

[Swammerdami]

The Armistice which ended World War I was signed at 5 am, but the cease-fire was set for 11 am. I assume the delay was because many units lacked radios, and anyway the orders to cease fire had to be passed down the chain of command. Did units which received news of the cease fire cease firing at once? Or did they exploit the hours until 11 am by killing "enemies"? My guess is: The Former.

Hun Sen's son shook hands with the acting Thai PM earlier today in the presence of the Malaysian PM, with the cease fire set for Midnight (GMT+7)., 100 minutes from now as I type. Why delay? These days 'Net is fast and ubiquitous and everybody has a smart-phone. But shooting continues as I write. Supposedly Cambodia attacked, so Thailand sent F-16's to bomb a Cambodian base. All AFTER the cease-fire handshake??

Trump claims credit for brokering the cease-fire: He threatened both sides with increased tariffs.

I've been posting so much fake news lately, that I'm reluctant to post what may be fake news about fake news ... or even fake news about fake news about fake news. But https://vt.tiktok.com/ZSSjyFtSw/ links to a claim that TRUMP posted videos purporting to show Thailand dropping chemicals on Cambodia, but with the picture actually of chemicals dropped to combat fires in California. Apologies for the TikTok link: I asked my kids for a link and that's what I got!

 

[Politesse]

I keep hearing rumors from my students, but the reporting available in the US leaves much to be desired. Feels like there are more fake stories running around social media than real coverage from the big outlets. Making rumor control difficult.

 

[Elixir]

there are more fake stories running around social media than real coverage from the big outlets. Making rumor control difficult.

Rumor control is the enemy of the fascist State. Fake stories are its lifeblood. That’s how they keep the proles angry, the women silent and pregnant, and the ruling class insulated from accountability.

 

[Politesse]

Also in Thai news, apparently a mass shooter killed five people and himself at a Bangkok market because a security guard scratched his car? What the hell is in the water this week? It's no better here of course, but people need to calm down and stop leading with bullets on conflict resolution...

 

[Tigers!]

Also in Thai news, apparently a mass shooter killed five people and himself at a Bangkok market because a security guard scratched his car? What the hell is in the water this week? It's no better here of course, but people need to calm down and stop leading with bullets on conflict resolution...

Shoot first ask questions later is so much quicker that talking about it.

 

[Swammerdami]

And now it appears that Cambodia broke the cease-fire and the Thai military is shooting back. That's the news from Thailand; the news from Cambodia may be exactly opposite.

But maybe that "hiccup" is behind us, with Reuters reporting that the cease-fire is holding. If not, the next time a hand-shake is exchanged, let's agree to mediation, and a peacekeeping force (from Singapore? ASEAN?). Please.

In other, more general news many would agree that the USA has veered away from the enlightened path that made it admired around the world. The wrong-way veers became apparent about 1981 and have accelerated in the last decade or so.

BUT, instead of providing a counter-weight for this wrong-way veer, I see a tendency among developed and developing countries around the world to follow in the wrong-way footsteps of the U.S. The dismal trends we saw in the U.S. circa 2015 were adopted in other countries circa 2025, and much of the world may continue to follow the U.S. on its path toward dystopia. Am I wrong?

Also in Thai news, apparently a mass shooter killed five people and himself at a Bangkok market because a security guard scratched his car? What the hell is in the water this week? It's no better here of course, but people need to calm down and stop leading with bullets on conflict resolution...

As if to confirm US dominance in the field of mass shootings I see that five were gunned down in Manhattan just minutes ago.

 List of countries by intentional homicide rate shows the US with an intentional homicide rate of 5.763 per 100,000; Thailand with 4.813. (WHO has a page with a similar ratio.) The U.S. rate is much higher than that of any country in Europe except Russia. Thailand's is higher than any other country in Southeast or Southern Asia. :-( I do NOT think it coincidence that Thailand's 15.1 civilian guns per 100 people is much higher than any other country in Asia except Pakistan. U.S.'s 120.5 is of course "off the charts", more than twice Yemen's figure. (Among countries with population above 1 million Serbia is #3 at 39.1, and Canada #4 at 34.7. Canada is frequently cited as evidence that "Guns need help from people to kill.")

Having spent as much of my adult life in Thailand as in USA, I can claim that the inchoate anger that infects so many Americans is much less visible in Thailand.

 

[Politesse]

I see gun violence as a global problem, I did not mean to say that Thailand is specially guilty of it except insofar as history has (as you have noted) left them as a country with a great many personal firearms to hand. But the news is dominated lately with people shooting their way out of situations to which a dialogue would have been a more effective strategy. Once the guns come out, choices diminish rapidly for all parties. Unlike in the movies, when two people pull a gun in real life they generally both end up getting shot several times, and this is also true at scale. Will either Thailand or Cambodia "win" something out of this skirmish? It seems very unlikely.

 

[WAB]

You are spot on about the problem with guns, Politesse. I've grown up with gun culture, from my earliest memories. My father, uncles, dad's friends, brother, brother's friends, all not only gun owners but gun lovers. I was told, not directly but passive aggressively, that for a man with a family to not own a gun meant that you were stupid and a pussy.

Many men I know do not believe that problems ought to be discussed rationally. You get into an altercation, that means the other guy "started running their mouth" and therefore deserved to be punched. It never matters if you initiate things. It's always the other guy who started it, and it's your business as a real man to finish it. If you don't, you're a pussy.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I see gun violence as a global problem, I did not mean to say that Thailand is specially guilty of it except insofar as history has (as you have noted) left them as a country with a great many personal firearms to hand. But the news is dominated lately with people shooting their way out of situations to which a dialogue would have been a more effective strategy. Once the guns come out, choices diminish rapidly for all parties. Unlike in the movies, when two people pull a gun in real life they generally both end up getting shot several times, and this is also true at scale. Will either Thailand or Cambodia "win" something out of this skirmish? It seems very unlikely.

What I've been reading about this is that Cambodia's claims do not make sense and that the real issue is Thailand objecting to the actions of cross-border actions of criminal gangs in Cambodia.

 

[Swammerdami]

I see gun violence as a global problem, I did not mean to say that Thailand is specially guilty of it except insofar as history has (as you have noted) left them as a country with a great many personal firearms to hand. But the news is dominated lately with people shooting their way out of situations to which a dialogue would have been a more effective strategy. Once the guns come out, choices diminish rapidly for all parties. Unlike in the movies, when two people pull a gun in real life they generally both end up getting shot several times, and this is also true at scale. Will either Thailand or Cambodia "win" something out of this skirmish? It seems very unlikely.

What I've been reading about this is that Cambodia's claims do not make sense and that the real issue is Thailand objecting to the actions of cross-border actions of criminal gangs in Cambodia.

I am not necessarily well informed about all this. There are large numbers of immigrants from Cambodia and Myanmar, both legal and illegal, working in the more prosperous Thailand. Just like immigrants in the U.S. these immigrants tend to be law-abiding I think: They do NOT want to be deported.

What IS a problem that has attracted much attention recently are computerized scam centers:

In Southeast Asia, hundreds of thousands of people

!!!

are employed by online scam centres to extract as much money as possible from victims. Mainly based in Cambodia and Myanmar, these cyber-scam hubs generate billions of dollars.

But the employees, too, are victims. They are trafficked by Chinese mafia groups as cheap labour. These workers are tortured, deprived of food and threatened with sexual abuse to force them to work.

Our reporters managed to get to the heart of one scamming operation and speak to some of the people whose lives have been ruined but who managed to escape.

AFAIK this is NOT a cause of the recent military conflicts, but it probably adds to Thais' anger.

 

[Tigers!]

What is happening along the border now? We heard about a possible ceasefire.