Epstein, Kiddies, And Trump. Oh, My

[ZiprHead]

Those felonies you like to bring up had nothing to do with any nonconsensual sex. They also were really misdemeanors - mislabeling campaign expenses - and raised to felonies for political purposes. It backfired - the ridiculous hush money case only made Trump more popular.

I don't remember you objecting when Trump's lawyer went to jail for his participation in those actions.

 

[Elixir]

Those felonies you like to bring up had nothing to do with any nonconsensual sex. They also were really misdemeanors - mislabeling campaign expenses - and raised to felonies for political purposes. It backfired - the ridiculous hush money case only made Trump more popular.

I don't remember you objecting when Trump's lawyer went to jail for his participation in those actions.

Of course not. That was a scumbag Jew lawyer, not the blonde haired blue eyed heir to a Kkk slumlord’s fortune!

 

[scombrid]

So, how long before "15 years old isn't a child" arguments start coming in?

As far as age of consent, I think 16 is a good compromise age, and there should be close-age exceptions. I.e. a 16 year old with a 15 year old should be allowed. Note that 16 is the age of consent in most of the developed world, including some US states, and that 18 as age of consent is the exception.

This isn't really at issue with regard to Trump, Epstein, and their clients. You don't see why people question your motives for injecting it into the conversation?

 

[Jarhyn]

So, how long before "15 years old isn't a child" arguments start coming in?

As far as age of consent, I think 16 is a good compromise age, and there should be close-age exceptions. I.e. a 16 year old with a 15 year old should be allowed. Note that 16 is the age of consent in most of the developed world, including some US states, and that 18 as age of consent is the exception.

This isn't really at issue with regard to Trump, Epstein, and their clients. You don't see why people question your motives for injecting it into the conversation?

I even spelled it out 2 times now already. I think at this point it's pathological.

Children having sex with children is still to be discourage, but does not rise to the imbalance of an adult having sex with a child; our leniency with the one does not justify leniency with the other and talking about that in the current context sure makes it look like 'kids with kods' is a camel's nose seeking to bring 'adults with kids' into the tent.

Now notice how these posts will not be addressed while they keep talking about the red herring.

Make this the third time I've explained it, maybe the 5th or 6th time for this thread across all posters.

 

[scombrid]

When women are sex objects and emotional entanglement is not a concern then I guess a lot of things can be rationalized when procurement of sex is the only objective. It's a shame that the law has to get involved to stop exploitation but that's where we are.

 

[ZiprHead]

Interspecies erotica, please!

 

[ZiprHead]

Someone asked if it was revealed that Trump actually did screw around with kids would MAGAts continue to support him.

 

[Derec]

B Curious. Why would you be inclined to slide the age of consent from 18 to 16?

I am not inclined to "slide" anything. Age of consent around 16 is common in developed countries. Including many US states.

It is Jarhyn et al who are the outliers, not I.

Now, why do I think that's the appropriate age? First of all, it acknowledges reality. Many teens have sex before 18 anyway consensually. So to say that they can't consent stretches credibility. Note that there is a difference between whether something is a good idea vs. whether something should carry a criminal charge. Especially a felony charge with sex offender registration. Also, people can misrepresent age. Many 17 year olds can easily pass for even 21. So aoc of 16 strikes a balance between protecting teenagers and not being too draconian.

If we are talking about a person's ability to make sound judgements, the age of consent should move in the other direction.

If we go by a person's ability to make sound judgments, some people don't have that at 30. So that's not a good standard.
And what do you mean by "move in the other direction"? Age of consent above 18, like in Tunisia?

These executive functions of the brain aren't fully developed until the mid twenties, later for some. And this isn't even considering any role alcohol might be playing.

So what do you think age of consent should be then? 21? 25?

Why 16?

I think it's a reasonable compromise that is working in most of the developed world.

 

[Derec]

When women are sex objects

and emotional entanglement is not a concern then I guess a lot of things can be rationalized when procurement of sex is the only objective. It's a shame that the law has to get involved to stop exploitation but that's where we are.

What do you propose the law should be? Have nanny state ban any sex without sufficient "emotional entanglement", as determined by some busybody bureaucrat? And is that proposal one-sided or do you also want criminal charges for women who see men as sex objects?

 

[Derec]

I even spelled it out 2 times now already. I think at this point it's pathological.

Admitting that you have a problem is the first step to getting better. I believe in you, Jarhyn!

Children having sex with children is still to be discourage,

I agree for actual children. It's more complex for teenagers. I think older minor teenagers (16-17) having sex with each other and adult teenagers (18-19) is natural, and attempts to discourage it, for example through "abstinence only" sex-ed, end up doing far more harm than good.

but does not rise to the imbalance of an adult having sex with a child;

Absolutely correct for actual children. It's disgusting, and I don't even have words for Yemen's age of consent. Or for Iraq.
Iraq to lower age of consent for girls to just 9 years old and allow men to marry young kids: ‘This law legalizes child rape’

But when it comes to teenagers, I think things are more complicated. A 16 year old teen is far closer in development to an 18 year old adult than he or she is to a 9 year old child.
I think 16 is a reasonable age of consent, even if I do not think it's a good idea for e.g. a 30 year old to have sex with a 16 year old teen because of the difference in maturity levels. I also do not think 30 with 18 is necessarily a great idea either, but nobody is proposing making that a felony - yet.
However, with your dichotomous definitions of "adult" and "child" you end up condemning perfectly normal relationships. To you, a 17 year old is a "child" and an 18 year old is an "adult", and so by your definition that's somehow bad even though they are almost the same age.
Take two 17 year olds in the same class, about a month apart in age, who are dating. So when one turns 18, he or she is a predator for about a month? In what universe does that make sense?

our leniency with the one does not justify leniency with the other and talking about that in the current context sure makes it look like 'kids with kods' is a camel's nose seeking to bring 'adults with kids' into the tent.

I think the camel's nose is going the other way. Since people naturally understand that human development is not a light switch, if you insist that anybody under 18 is an innocent little child, they will not see ≥18 as adult. TV&CC wants to raise age of consent, presumably into the 20s. Online you aleady see references to people dating or looking at young adults (18- early 20s) as "pedos". It's crazy, and the attitude of people like you is to blame.

 

[Derec]

This isn't really at issue with regard to Trump, Epstein, and their clients. You don't see why people question your motives for injecting it into the conversation?

My "motive" was merely to challenge Jarhyn's assertion that anybody under 18 is a "child".

 

[Derec]

Those felonies you like to bring up had nothing to do with any nonconsensual sex. They also were really misdemeanors - mislabeling campaign expenses - and raised to felonies for political purposes. It backfired - the ridiculous hush money case only made Trump more popular.

I don't remember you objecting when Trump's lawyer went to jail for his participation in those actions.

Cohen was prosecuted in 2018 by the US attorney, only two years after the events of 2016 that the case was based on.
That is very different than Bragg prosecuting Trump in 2023 for a NY misdemeanor past the statute of limitations that he elevated to felony based on questionable legal theories.

And politically, the hush money prosecution absolutely backfired. It made Trump more popular, and it helped him get reelected.

Trump was sliding in the primary polls and slipped below 50% in late 2022 going into 2023. He was indicted by Alvin Bragg and his Chipmunks in late March 2023, and he surged again.

That people like you still defend this fuckup means that you still have not learned anything from the 2024 disaster.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So, how long before "15 years old isn't a child" arguments start coming in?

Well, a 15 year old is objectively not a child. He or she is a teenager, a transitional stage between childhood and adulthood, not quite like either of those two stages of life. Humans are not larvae until our 18th birthdays who then metamorphose into adults. No, we develop gradually, and the society needs to accept that. The notion that anybody below 18 is a full-on child is one of the more pernicious ideas that developed over the last few decades.

As far as age of consent, I think 16 is a good compromise age, and there should be close-age exceptions. I.e. a 16 year old with a 15 year old should be allowed. Note that 16 is the age of consent in most of the developed world, including some US states, and that 18 as age of consent is the exception.
As far as being a sex worker, 18 is a good cutoff as the age of majority. Note that none of this makes forced or coerced sex ok, regardless of age, although younger ages of vicims make it worse, of course.

Note that I will most likely be attacked by the likes of Toni and Jarhyn for having a nuanced position on the matter, and because I do not think that somebody 17 years and 364 days old is a "child" who is unable to consent to sex.

B Curious. Why would you be inclined to slide the age of consent from 18 to 16? If we are talking about a person's ability to make sound judgements, the age of consent should move in the other direction. These executive functions of the brain aren't fully developed until the mid twenties, later for some. And this isn't even considering any role alcohol might be playing.
Why 16?

I'm not Derec but I do believe 18 is too high. It does not reflect reality. I would like to see two things:

1) At younger ages there's a restriction on the age gap. In general I would say maybe two years, but I would favor an exception for those in the same class or the same team.

2) An existing relationship does not become illegal. If it was legal to start it's legal to continue. Both in terms of age (there are states where the older person turning 18 makes a previously legal relationship illegal) and consanguinity. You find out your wife is your sister, you don't have to divorce.

 

[Derec]

I’ve raised children. Anyone who has knows there are stages of childhood development until adulthood.

Then why do you insist on a dichotomous definition that leads to absurdities, like having 18 and 17 having sex be "adult having sex with a child"?

Your dichotomous development is s straw man. Your obsession over when it is okay to fuck children rape apologia is psychologically abnormal,

No, it is Jarhyn et al who erect straw men. And if you cannot sustain an argument without insulting your opponents ("rape apologia", "psychologically abnormal") then there is not much to your argument.

 

[laughing dog]

I’ve raised children. Anyone who has knows there are stages of childhood development until adulthood.

Then why do you insist on a dichotomous definition that leads to absurdities, like having 18 and 17 having sex be "adult having sex with a child"?

Until one is an adult, one is a child.

Your dichotomous development is s straw man. Your obsession over when it is okay to fuck children rape apologia is psychologically abnormal,

No, it is Jarhyn et al who erect straw men. And if you cannot sustain an argument without insulting your opponents ("rape apologia", "psychologically abnormal") then there is not much to your argument.

If you cannot stand accurate representations of your views, then there is not much to your views.

 

[Derec]

Disagree. The dirty books law he was convicted under was specifically intended for that sort of thing--like nailing Al Capone on taxes. It was meant to target coverups, it did exactly what it was supposed to do. (I do have a problem with it being preponderance of the evidence, though. Both sides have gotten very bad about trying to sidestep the Constitution.)

The law he was convicted under was a misdemeanor though, with the statute of limitations well expired. The US attorney passed on prosecuting him federally, and Bragg's predecessor in the Manhattan DA's office also passed on state charges.
So Bragg combined the state charges with a federal law that Trump was not charges with, much less convicted under, to upgrade the state charges to a felony and extend the statute of limitations.
These legal maneuverings, from a DA known for downgrading charges rather than upgrading them, against a political opponent, in combination with the salacious nature of the underlying case, led to it being a political suicide, even though it resulted in convictions.

How anybody can think that this whole case was not a mistake, even if technically Trump did break the law, is a mystery to me. It shows that the Resistance has learned nothing. Things like:
- Choose your battles.
- "You come at the king, you best not miss".

 

[Derec]

Until one is an adult, one is a child.

That is the very dichotomy I think is nonsensical. There is a transitional stage between childhood and adulthood.

If you cannot stand accurate representations of your views, then there is not much to your views.

Except that it is the opposite of being an "accurate representation".

 

[Derec]

Trump. Fucked. Children.
Trump. Trafficked. Children.
That he hasn't been convicted of these offenses is for purely political political purposes.

If there is evidence beyond reasonable doubt of these crimes, then he should have been prosecuted for it.
What is the evidence?

He is apparently popular with you.

Most certainly not! That's why for example the hush-money prosecution was so infuriating to me. The case made him more popular, and helped him get reelected.

You are apologizing rapid-fire as if trying to dissemble the fact that for several posts of this thread now, you yourself have done exactly what many, MANY people who I would NEVER trust around a kid have done, and I have been VERY clear what I mean by "child" here and why I think that matters.

I think your position is wrong, and I offered reasons why not. All you (and your attack dog) have offered are aspersions like here. People who disagree with you can't be trusted with children, anybody who disagrees with you is abnormal psychologically, and so on. It's as disgusting as it is transparent.

And no, teens do not actually have the necessary experience or time to understand sex.

"Teens" includes anybody below 20. And most teens have sex, including teens below 18.

That is in fact something that evolution itself seems to have set up: an inability to understand reproduction overlapping an ability to reproduce, thus ensuring a fairly high rate of reproduction, and an inability to understand the interpersonal long term effects of a sexual relationship with someone more likely to understand and take advantage of those effects

I do not think it is anything "evolution set up". I think it is a consequence of our brains that our mental maturing takes longer than our physical maturing, but not something that was selected for because of some selective advantage.
Nevertheless a 16 year old minor is much closer in maturity to an 18 year old adult than to a 10 year old child.

That's the whole fucking point: to defeat that overlap by doing a number of things to help people understand it well enough to not do it in a reproductive manner at that age, and to prevent efforts by adults to groom children into imbalanced relationships from which they lack the power or leverage to escape.

I do not think treating teenagers like children is a good approach here. And that goes way beyond sex btw. A lot of young adults these days are not able to function independently because they have been infantilized so much.

Get fucked with "proven in court" about this shit. Trump fucked children.

You may suspect that, but you can't just assume it just because you don't like the guy.

Every last bit of dancing around about children fucking each other (which we should still strive to prevent through education) makes you look worse,

Abstinence-only sex-ed, which is what you seem to be advocating for here, does far more harm than good. Also, your language "children fucking each other" is something you want to apply equally to a couple of 12 year olds and to a couple of 17 year olds. And therein lies my problem with the false dichotomy you are operating under.

because you are trying to use THAT as if it justifies adults fucking children.

No, I do not.

Why does this still have to be a topic?!?

Because you are still unwilling to acknowledge that there is a difference between children and teenagers.

 

[laughing dog]

Until one is an adult, one is a child.

That is the very dichotomy I think is nonsensical. There is a transitional stage between childhood and adulthood.

There is a transitional stage in each year of development. Why the special interest in the age of legal fuckability as opposed to voting eligibility or enlisting in the armed forces or purchasing alcohol or any of the areas with dichotomous limits?

If you cannot stand accurate representations of your views, then there is not much to your views.

Except that it is the opposite of being an "accurate representation".

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

[Jarhyn]

And, yet another screed of red herrings (hint: nobody is really calling for penalties of children exploring with children).

The subject is kids with adults.

There are pictures, evidence, testimony...

It's almost like the reason he isn't being prosecuted on the evidence we already have is because he has corrupted the DOJ and Congress has voted to block even hearing the evidence.

It's shocking that someone can call Joe Biden creepy, or whatever, and then say "oh, where's the evidence" when Trump literally talked about doing it openly on camera.