Epstein, Kiddies, And Trump. Oh, My

[ZiprHead]

Violence is committed against prostitutes working in legalized settings, here and abroad. Coercion is alleged in the cases of sex workers in places such as Nevada, as is wage theft. In places where prostitution is legalized, there is an increase in sex trafficking, particularly of minors.

I think that 21 is a reasonable age for legalization of sex work:

21 Things You Can Do at 21 Years Old (& Not Just Drinking)

Drinking alcohol, gambling at casinos, renting a car, and more!In the United States, a 21st birthday is considered a major milestone since it marks the age that you're legally allowed to drink alcohol. But did you know that there are a ton...

www.wikihow.com

I think that it is pertinent that one cannot e gage in some activities which can/do have an adverse affect in your health until you are 21, namely legally consume alcohol or tobacco or cannabis.

I would divide sex work into solo (stripper, solo modelling, cam girl) with an 18 limit and not solo with a 21 limit.

But isn't tobacco 18 limit?

Girls, at least in the US, already grow up with tremendous pressure to look a certain way and already have a lot of people obsessing over their bodies and sexuality. Delaying the potential for ANY sex work can only help.

I write this knowing that there will always be a market for underaged sex workers of all sorts. And that some will inevitably get trafficked. But with firm age limits at 21, it will be much much harder to send yourself by claiming you thought the 15 year old was 18. It’s a much bigger stretch from 15 to 21.

But but but... what about the guy that wants to have plausible deniability? Why aren't you thinking about his feelings?

Which isn't how it should be. No "said they were legal", but proved it. Due diligence, not strict liability.

And let's make it easier to verify IDs: there's a 2D barcode on the back, modern scanners have no problem with it. Simple app, scan the back of a license, it either comes back with the picture, comes back with a picture + "expired", comes back with a picture + "replaced" (lost, found by someone else), or comes back "invalid". And note that this provides a way to age-gate without automatically showing a name. A malicious version of the app could still get the info (it's all in plaintext) but it doesn't automatically identify you like showing the front would.

"C'mon, guys. lets go to the bar to pick up chicks. Everyone have their ID scanner handy?"

 

[Jarhyn]

Violence is committed against prostitutes working in legalized settings, here and abroad. Coercion is alleged in the cases of sex workers in places such as Nevada, as is wage theft. In places where prostitution is legalized, there is an increase in sex trafficking, particularly of minors.

I think that 21 is a reasonable age for legalization of sex work:

21 Things You Can Do at 21 Years Old (& Not Just Drinking)

Drinking alcohol, gambling at casinos, renting a car, and more!In the United States, a 21st birthday is considered a major milestone since it marks the age that you're legally allowed to drink alcohol. But did you know that there are a ton...

www.wikihow.com

I think that it is pertinent that one cannot e gage in some activities which can/do have an adverse affect in your health until you are 21, namely legally consume alcohol or tobacco or cannabis.

I would divide sex work into solo (stripper, solo modelling, cam girl) with an 18 limit and not solo with a 21 limit.

But isn't tobacco 18 limit?

Girls, at least in the US, already grow up with tremendous pressure to look a certain way and already have a lot of people obsessing over their bodies and sexuality. Delaying the potential for ANY sex work can only help.

I write this knowing that there will always be a market for underaged sex workers of all sorts. And that some will inevitably get trafficked. But with firm age limits at 21, it will be much much harder to send yourself by claiming you thought the 15 year old was 18. It’s a much bigger stretch from 15 to 21.

But but but... what about the guy that wants to have plausible deniability? Why aren't you thinking about his feelings?

Which isn't how it should be. No "said they were legal", but proved it. Due diligence, not strict liability.

And let's make it easier to verify IDs: there's a 2D barcode on the back, modern scanners have no problem with it. Simple app, scan the back of a license, it either comes back with the picture, comes back with a picture + "expired", comes back with a picture + "replaced" (lost, found by someone else), or comes back "invalid". And note that this provides a way to age-gate without automatically showing a name. A malicious version of the app could still get the info (it's all in plaintext) but it doesn't automatically identify you like showing the front would.

"C'mon, guys. lets go to the bar to pick up chicks. Everyone have their ID scanner handy?"

It's called a "cellphone with a camera and Internet access".

Im a little curious why the app doesn't already exist. I mean it does exist; every bar from here to Sunday seems to use it.. so why can't John B. Horny? Or can he and I'm just a dinosaur?

 

[Toni]

Jebus... you are too damned old to be whining about the threat against not being able to have sex with 18 year olds!

Did you ever wonder what the archetypal “dirty old man” was like when they were younger?

AKA cash cow.

 

[Toni]

Violence is committed against prostitutes working in legalized settings, here and abroad. Coercion is alleged in the cases of sex workers in places such as Nevada, as is wage theft. In places where prostitution is legalized, there is an increase in sex trafficking, particularly of minors.

I think that 21 is a reasonable age for legalization of sex work:

21 Things You Can Do at 21 Years Old (& Not Just Drinking)

Drinking alcohol, gambling at casinos, renting a car, and more!In the United States, a 21st birthday is considered a major milestone since it marks the age that you're legally allowed to drink alcohol. But did you know that there are a ton...

www.wikihow.com

I think that it is pertinent that one cannot e gage in some activities which can/do have an adverse affect in your health until you are 21, namely legally consume alcohol or tobacco or cannabis.

I would divide sex work into solo (stripper, solo modelling, cam girl) with an 18 limit and not solo with a 21 limit.

But isn't tobacco 18 limit?

Girls, at least in the US, already grow up with tremendous pressure to look a certain way and already have a lot of people obsessing over their bodies and sexuality. Delaying the potential for ANY sex work can only help.

I write this knowing that there will always be a market for underaged sex workers of all sorts. And that some will inevitably get trafficked. But with firm age limits at 21, it will be much much harder to send yourself by claiming you thought the 15 year old was 18. It’s a much bigger stretch from 15 to 21.

But but but... what about the guy that wants to have plausible deniability? Why aren't you thinking about his feelings?

Which isn't how it should be. No "said they were legal", but proved it. Due diligence, not strict liability.

And let's make it easier to verify IDs: there's a 2D barcode on the back, modern scanners have no problem with it. Simple app, scan the back of a license, it either comes back with the picture, comes back with a picture + "expired", comes back with a picture + "replaced" (lost, found by someone else), or comes back "invalid". And note that this provides a way to age-gate without automatically showing a name. A malicious version of the app could still get the info (it's all in plaintext) but it doesn't automatically identify you like showing the front would.

"C'mon, guys. lets go to the bar to pick up chicks. Everyone have their ID scanner handy?"

It's called a "cellphone with a camera and Internet access".

Im a little curious why the app doesn't already exist. I mean it does exist; every bar from here to Sunday seems to use it.. so why can't John B. Horny? Or can he and I'm just a dinosaur?

Uh, because it would remove plausible deniability from guys who prefer them underaged.

 

[Jarhyn]

Jebus... you are too damned old to be whining about the threat against not being able to have sex with 18 year olds!

Did you ever wonder what the archetypal “dirty old man” was like when they were younger?

AKA cash cow.

??

I know the dirty old man these days is generally someone who never really had meaningful or engaging emotional relationships with those they are "dirty" towards at any phase of their life, not even really themselves.

It's the sort of thing that happens when you take folks for granted, or as a right.

In some respects, I could see how this would translate into a cash cow for the sex industry.

Is this an otter misunderstanding?

 

[ZiprHead]

Violence is committed against prostitutes working in legalized settings, here and abroad. Coercion is alleged in the cases of sex workers in places such as Nevada, as is wage theft. In places where prostitution is legalized, there is an increase in sex trafficking, particularly of minors.

I think that 21 is a reasonable age for legalization of sex work:

21 Things You Can Do at 21 Years Old (& Not Just Drinking)

Drinking alcohol, gambling at casinos, renting a car, and more!In the United States, a 21st birthday is considered a major milestone since it marks the age that you're legally allowed to drink alcohol. But did you know that there are a ton...

www.wikihow.com

I think that it is pertinent that one cannot e gage in some activities which can/do have an adverse affect in your health until you are 21, namely legally consume alcohol or tobacco or cannabis.

I would divide sex work into solo (stripper, solo modelling, cam girl) with an 18 limit and not solo with a 21 limit.

But isn't tobacco 18 limit?

Girls, at least in the US, already grow up with tremendous pressure to look a certain way and already have a lot of people obsessing over their bodies and sexuality. Delaying the potential for ANY sex work can only help.

I write this knowing that there will always be a market for underaged sex workers of all sorts. And that some will inevitably get trafficked. But with firm age limits at 21, it will be much much harder to send yourself by claiming you thought the 15 year old was 18. It’s a much bigger stretch from 15 to 21.

But but but... what about the guy that wants to have plausible deniability? Why aren't you thinking about his feelings?

Which isn't how it should be. No "said they were legal", but proved it. Due diligence, not strict liability.

And let's make it easier to verify IDs: there's a 2D barcode on the back, modern scanners have no problem with it. Simple app, scan the back of a license, it either comes back with the picture, comes back with a picture + "expired", comes back with a picture + "replaced" (lost, found by someone else), or comes back "invalid". And note that this provides a way to age-gate without automatically showing a name. A malicious version of the app could still get the info (it's all in plaintext) but it doesn't automatically identify you like showing the front would.

"C'mon, guys. lets go to the bar to pick up chicks. Everyone have their ID scanner handy?"

It's called a "cellphone with a camera and Internet access".

Im a little curious why the app doesn't already exist. I mean it does exist; every bar from here to Sunday seems to use it.. so why can't John B. Horny? Or can he and I'm just a dinosaur?

You still need access to the DMV/SOS database and that's restricted for privacy concerns.

So we would need skeevy pigs to lobby state reps to make access to those databases available so afore mentioned skeevy pigs can fuck girls of a questionable age in safety. Yeah, they should get right on that.

 

[Toni]

Jebus... you are too damned old to be whining about the threat against not being able to have sex with 18 year olds!

Did you ever wonder what the archetypal “dirty old man” was like when they were younger?

AKA cash cow.

??

I know the dirty old man these days is generally someone who never really had meaningful or engaging emotional relationships with those they are "dirty" towards at any phase of their life, not even really themselves.

It's the sort of thing that happens when you take folks for granted, or as a right.

In some respects, I could see how this would translate into a cash cow for the sex industry.

Is this an otter misunderstanding?

Yeah, I was thinking of the sex industry. A portable ID reader would remove plausible deniability for whom under age is the entire point. They could no longer claim they didn’t know ( wink wink) that the person is not old enough for whatever the guy ( or gal) has in mind.

Some of it is the power of the forbidden. Some of it is just plain sexual insecurity—younger means having less of a means of comparison—no man is going to come up short, so to speak if there is no previous experience.

And…I suspect for some men, they need maximum stimulation in order to perform and fur some, that requires a perfect body before them—no extra baggage, no stretch marks, no saggy bits.

But I’m not a guy so those are just guesses.

And yeah, I dud respond quickly without carefully reading. Still difficult for me to have uninterrupted time….

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Which isn't how it should be. No "said they were legal", but proved it. Due diligence, not strict liability.

And let's make it easier to verify IDs: there's a 2D barcode on the back, modern scanners have no problem with it. Simple app, scan the back of a license, it either comes back with the picture, comes back with a picture + "expired", comes back with a picture + "replaced" (lost, found by someone else), or comes back "invalid". And note that this provides a way to age-gate without automatically showing a name. A malicious version of the app could still get the info (it's all in plaintext) but it doesn't automatically identify you like showing the front would.

"C'mon, guys. lets go to the bar to pick up chicks. Everyone have their ID scanner handy?"

Note: "app". As in on your phone.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You still need access to the DMV/SOS database and that's restricted for privacy concerns.

So we would need skeevy pigs to lobby state reps to make access to those databases available so afore mentioned skeevy pigs can fuck girls of a questionable age in safety. Yeah, they should get right on that.

What's the privacy issue? It would not be revealing anything that can't be learned directly from the ID except the validity of said ID.

I just tested it with my phone and my license--scanned fine, same data as on the front. I'm just saying to provide an interface that validates that against the real data.

 

[Elixir]

Yeah, I was thinking of the sex industry.

FWIW, I got that right away...

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In some respects, I could see how this would translate into a cash cow for the sex industry.

Is this an otter misunderstanding?

Yeah, I was thinking of the sex industry. A portable ID reader would remove plausible deniability for whom under age is the entire point. They could no longer claim they didn’t know ( wink wink) that the person is not old enough for whatever the guy ( or gal) has in mind.

Especially in situations where identity is usually hidden (prostitution). Beneficial for society, but I don't see a cash cow because the effect would be to block things that shouldn't happen.

 

[Toni]

In some respects, I could see how this would translate into a cash cow for the sex industry.

Is this an otter misunderstanding?

Yeah, I was thinking of the sex industry. A portable ID reader would remove plausible deniability for whom under age is the entire point. They could no longer claim they didn’t know ( wink wink) that the person is not old enough for whatever the guy ( or gal) has in mind.

Especially in situations where identity is usually hidden (prostitution). Beneficial for society, but I don't see a cash cow because the effect would be to block things that shouldn't happen.

I'm sorry: I wasn't very clear. I believe that I responded or intended to respond to the post that asked why such hand held devices weren't widely used. My remark specifically addressed what you stated: It would create the expectation that everyone knew everyone else's age and remove any plausible deniability: I didn't know she was only 15, 14, 13, 11......

And as disgusting as it is, selling young girls too young to willingly participate in such work is indeed a cash cow. Making their age explicitly known would damage a revenue stream....for some. Of course, for some, the underage part is exactly the turn on.

I genuinely do not care if people like to incorporate under age sex thing as part of their sex play so long as no one is actually under aged. I really do not care if it interferes with the pleasure of some adults to have to consider the negative effects of using children for sex.

 

[Bronzeage]

In my neighborhood, the legal statutes which deal with the issue of sex with underage people, require an age difference of more than 2 years in order for the statute to apply. This is usually called the "Romeo and Juliet" exception.

I don't think any of Epstein's friends, clients, PYL, etc, could have take advantage of the R&J rule. In the same way, the "willful ignorance" of, "I thought she was 18", is not a defense, certainly no more effective than, "I didn't know the gun was loaded."

 

[Jarhyn]

Jebus... you are too damned old to be whining about the threat against not being able to have sex with 18 year olds!

Did you ever wonder what the archetypal “dirty old man” was like when they were younger?

AKA cash cow.

??

I know the dirty old man these days is generally someone who never really had meaningful or engaging emotional relationships with those they are "dirty" towards at any phase of their life, not even really themselves.

It's the sort of thing that happens when you take folks for granted, or as a right.

In some respects, I could see how this would translate into a cash cow for the sex industry.

Is this an otter misunderstanding?

Yeah, I was thinking of the sex industry. A portable ID reader would remove plausible deniability for whom under age is the entire point. They could no longer claim they didn’t know ( wink wink) that the person is not old enough for whatever the guy ( or gal) has in mind.

Some of it is the power of the forbidden. Some of it is just plain sexual insecurity—younger means having less of a means of comparison—no man is going to come up short, so to speak if there is no previous experience.

And…I suspect for some men, they need maximum stimulation in order to perform and fur some, that requires a perfect body before them—no extra baggage, no stretch marks, no saggy bits.

But I’m not a guy so those are just guesses.

And yeah, I dud respond quickly without carefully reading. Still difficult for me to have uninterrupted time….

It would also remove plausible deniability of contact. When your cell phone has a log of having checked her ID, it's hard to say "oh, that dead lady in my hotel room? never met her before in my life!"

I expect that some people do want "inhumanly perfect" bodies.

To be fair, as I said before elsewhere, I'm a furry. Most of the images I stimulate myself with are of art drawn by people whose ideals are not even shaped like a human could ever be and still be called "human". That's why the term "furry" exists.

Many furries are very conventionally unattractive, for all that we find other ways to be attracted to one another.

I genuinely do not care if people like to incorporate under age sex thing as part of their sex play so long as no one is actually under aged.

Yeah, and the most fucked up part about the people who don't is that this is a well-known way people can explore whatever they want or need to in an appropriate way. They generally know this and instead choose to violate and harm children.

Its one of the biggest reasons I have so much derision over pedophiles chasing after children. Like, they have options and they choose evil.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In my neighborhood, the legal statutes which deal with the issue of sex with underage people, require an age difference of more than 2 years in order for the statute to apply. This is usually called the "Romeo and Juliet" exception.

I don't think any of Epstein's friends, clients, PYL, etc, could have take advantage of the R&J rule. In the same way, the "willful ignorance" of, "I thought she was 18", is not a defense, certainly no more effective than, "I didn't know the gun was loaded."

And 18 isn't even remotely on topic, as based on statements made regarding Epstein, including Trump, everyone KNEW that Epstein was peddling in the not remotely barely legal market. So, "I thought she was 18" isn't a particularly viable defense, because that wasn't what Epstein was trafficking in.

Which is why we get back to the 15 isn't a child argument, because some people will need to provide cover for something that nothing less than statutory rape and could be quite worse. It is an admission of guilt that is being spun to make it sound like yeah, he did it, but... come on... it isn't like a 15 year old is a 'child'. Also known as the "I'd hit that" defense.

 

[Jarhyn]

... yeah, he did it, but... come on... it isn't like a 15 year old is a 'child'. Also known as the "I'd hit that" defense.

Which has been my whole point throughout the thread. It's apologia and defense of child rape and we shouldn't allow it as an argument.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Especially in situations where identity is usually hidden (prostitution). Beneficial for society, but I don't see a cash cow because the effect would be to block things that shouldn't happen.

I'm sorry: I wasn't very clear. I believe that I responded or intended to respond to the post that asked why such hand held devices weren't widely used. My remark specifically addressed what you stated: It would create the expectation that everyone knew everyone else's age and remove any plausible deniability: I didn't know she was only 15, 14, 13, 11......

It doesn't establish age, just 18+ or 21+. And you seem to be acting like I would have a problem with that.

And as disgusting as it is, selling young girls too young to willingly participate in such work is indeed a cash cow. Making their age explicitly known would damage a revenue stream....for some. Of course, for some, the underage part is exactly the turn on.

But it's an improper cash cow being removed, not a cash cow being created. And it's not just the perverts, a good age gate is not beneficial to any age gated business. And in the other direction the focus is on prohibiting rather than on age gating. Thus there are no strong interests in favor of a good age gate.

 

[Derec]

I didn't know she was only 15, 14, 13, 11......

Or 19, or 20, given your desire to raise the age of adulthood.

 

[Derec]

And 18 isn't even remotely on topic, as based on statements made regarding Epstein, including Trump, everyone KNEW that Epstein was peddling in the not remotely barely legal market.

It may not apply to Epstein directly, but it does apply to arguments by the likes of Elixir and Jarhyn that everybody under 18 is a child.
It certainly applies to Toni, who wants to raise the full age of consent even beyond 18.

So, "I thought she was 18" isn't a particularly viable defense, because that wasn't what Epstein was trafficking in.

I think reasonable belief of age should be a valid defense. Barring that, aoc=16 is better than aoc=18 to prevent accidentally going for somebody underage. A 17 year old could pass for even 21, and get into bars and clubs, but 15 year olds generally can't.

Which is why we get back to the 15 isn't a child argument, because some people will need to provide cover for something that nothing less than statutory rape and could be quite worse. It is an admission of guilt that is being spun to make it sound like yeah, he did it, but... come on... it isn't like a 15 year old is a 'child'. Also known as the "I'd hit that" defense.

A 15 year old objectively isn't a child. A 15 year old is not an adult either.
Just because people disagree with you does not mean we want to fuck 15 year olds. I don't, but I also do not want minor teens to be able to carjack me with impunity because the courts view them as innocent children who don't know any better.
Carjacking victim with her baby nearby speaks out about repeat juvenile offenders

Police later arrested five juveniles, three of whom were already known to law enforcement.
Three of the teens were already wearing ankle monitors.
“If you have an ankle monitor on, you don’t care that you’re at the location, GPS location, of a crime, because you’re gonna get diverted and you’re gonna go in and your’re gonna come right back out. And you’re gonna do it again," said Lawson.
The youngest suspect was a 13-year-old female.
“Basically, they’re going in and coming out without any consequence. And I’m like what’s the point," said Lawson.
Law enforcement expert Betsy Smith criticized the juvenile justice system, saying, "What that says to the community is, we don’t care. We don’t care about you, we don’t care about your safety."

They are not children, and we should not be treating them as such.

 

[Derec]

Which has been my whole point throughout the thread. It's apologia and defense of child rape and we shouldn't allow it as an argument.

It is pretty disgusting that you view disagreement about definition of "child" as rape apologia. Despite my nuanced post on this issue from earlier in the thread, you are still hanging on this baseless attack in lieu of making actual arguments.

And there is something very totalitarian to say that disagreeing with you should not be allowed.