Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

[Bomb#20]

As far as I'm concerned, the word gender is a polite synonym for sex.

Ha! The admission! I remember when you were (angrily no less) pretending to understand the difference. Pants on fire, much?

Can you quote her on that? Dollars to donuts she was indicating she understood the difference between gender identity and sex, and whichever gender ideologue she was arguing with was equivocating between gender identity and gender.

 

[seanie]

As far as I'm concerned, the word gender is a polite synonym for sex.

Ha! The admission! I remember when you were (angrily no less) pretending to understand the difference. Pants on fire, much?

Well yes. Going back people used sex instead of gender, before gender identity was a significant thing, because sex seemed impolite. Because it conjured up images of the act of sex.

Can you give your definitions of sec and gender?

 

[Toni]

I was talking about my medical records keeping becoming female. The most recent instance the radiologist noted "normal mammogram" on an x-ray of my abdomen.

Aside here, but you might want to see if there's a female Loren Pechtel somewhere in your vicinity. I've spent about a year going back and forth with a collection of doctors trying to get my records untangled, and get claims sorted out - there's another person with the same name and day of birth as me in the area. I keep getting bills for cardiology treatments despite not having any heart problems. The worst of it is that my neurologist *merged* our records, since apparently she has epilepsy too. So much fun.

No, it's just people looking at "Loren" and going on the fact that it currently is a female name, not realizing that when I was born that was the male spelling. I've looked over the NPD data breach, there are only two Pechtels in the state and no more than a few hundred in the country. AFIAK my name is unique although it appears to be associated with some bogus data and I've found many cases where it's a flawed web scrape--words attributed to me that I "said", the fact that they were quotes getting lost.

AFAIK, Lauren is a feminine name and Loren is a male name, although apparently that spelling has become unisex.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I was talking about my medical records keeping becoming female. The most recent instance the radiologist noted "normal mammogram" on an x-ray of my abdomen.

Aside here, but you might want to see if there's a female Loren Pechtel somewhere in your vicinity. I've spent about a year going back and forth with a collection of doctors trying to get my records untangled, and get claims sorted out - there's another person with the same name and day of birth as me in the area. I keep getting bills for cardiology treatments despite not having any heart problems. The worst of it is that my neurologist *merged* our records, since apparently she has epilepsy too. So much fun.

No, it's just people looking at "Loren" and going on the fact that it currently is a female name, not realizing that when I was born that was the male spelling. I've looked over the NPD data breach, there are only two Pechtels in the state and no more than a few hundred in the country. AFIAK my name is unique although it appears to be associated with some bogus data and I've found many cases where it's a flawed web scrape--words attributed to me that I "said", the fact that they were quotes getting lost.

I can totally seeing that being the cases if it's just your record saying female. But a radiologist noting a normal mammogram is either a case of records for different people being mixed up... or you've got a really incredibly shit radiologist. An abdominal x-ray wouldn't provide sufficient information or imaging for a radiologist to form ANY opinion about whether or not your breast tissue was normal, and given that you don't have boobs, it's extraordinarily unlikely that a radiologist looking at your abdomen would make any comment on the health of your non-existent breast tissue.

I mean... you do know what's involved in a mammogram, don't you? I sure hope that your radiologist knows what's involved.

Men have breast tissue ( albeit less developed, usually) and can get breast cancer. It is much more rare ( about 1% of all breast cancers diagnosed are in men) but it happens.

ORLY?????

Men with the worst of the breast cancer genes have about the same risk as women without.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The symbols are human. But any hypothetical alien race is going to develop the same techniques but with their own symbols.

I would agree that any sufficiently advanced critters would develop counting and arithmetic. In order to develop the science necessary for space travel, they'd need to develop a language that includes zero, a manipulatable system of counting and arithmetical operations, placeholder symbols for problem solving, etc. They would need to have a language that allows for the manipulation of observed data, expression of the relationships between those data, etc.

I would say that a lot of the language will be symbolically the same - just like human languages have a substantial amount of symbolic similarity - concepts and terms for me and you and we and they and fire and water and the other descriptive nomenclature needed to be able to transmit knowledge from one individual to another. They will be substantially similar and translatable, because the objective real phenomenon that they're describing are the same things.

I'm not convinced that aliens would necessarily develop all of the same techniques. Many of the fundamentals, sure, assuming we're not talking about a species with a crazy kind of telekinesis that lets them mentally warp spacetime without actually having to develop mathematical relationships in the first place. But set theory, or imaginary numbers? Maybe not. Maybe not even linear algebra. They may not even have developed modular math if they evolved in a relatively homogeneous way.

So they'll have calculus. Can't build civilization without it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I was talking about my medical records keeping becoming female. The most recent instance the radiologist noted "normal mammogram" on an x-ray of my abdomen.

Aside here, but you might want to see if there's a female Loren Pechtel somewhere in your vicinity. I've spent about a year going back and forth with a collection of doctors trying to get my records untangled, and get claims sorted out - there's another person with the same name and day of birth as me in the area. I keep getting bills for cardiology treatments despite not having any heart problems. The worst of it is that my neurologist *merged* our records, since apparently she has epilepsy too. So much fun.

No, it's just people looking at "Loren" and going on the fact that it currently is a female name, not realizing that when I was born that was the male spelling. I've looked over the NPD data breach, there are only two Pechtels in the state and no more than a few hundred in the country. AFIAK my name is unique although it appears to be associated with some bogus data and I've found many cases where it's a flawed web scrape--words attributed to me that I "said", the fact that they were quotes getting lost.

AFAIK, Lauren is a feminine name and Loren is a male name, although apparently that spelling has become unisex.

Yup. Last time I looked at Wolfram Alpha it showed no more male use but now it's showing a trickle at about 0.002% of babies. Most common age is 54. As a female usage it's 0.005% of babies, most common age is 28. Lauren as female is showing as 0.05%, most common age is 29. Interestingly, Lauren as male is showing 0.0005%, most common age is 29. I didn't realize there were any male Laurens.

It mixes up a lot of people but only bothers me when they're being an idiot about it like the woman who wouldn't give me the pickup order because "she's not here".

 

[Emily Lake]

As far as I'm concerned, the word gender is a polite synonym for sex.

Ha! The admission! I remember when you were (angrily no less) pretending to understand the difference. Pants on fire, much?

Oh great gravy. I understand the distinction, I just think the concept of gender is bullshit and lacks any real meaning. Seriously, I understand the difference between mind and soul... and I also think that one of those things is a pointless concept without any substantial meaning.

 

[Politesse]

As far as I'm concerned, the word gender is a polite synonym for sex.

Ha! The admission! I remember when you were (angrily no less) pretending to understand the difference. Pants on fire, much?

Oh great gravy. I understand the distinction, I just think the concept of gender is bullshit and lacks any real meaning. Seriously, I understand the difference between mind and soul... and I also think that one of those things is a pointless concept without any substantial meaning.

Well, no. You don't understand the distinction, if you think those two terms are synonyms. Or equivalent to whiffy supernatural concepts like minds and souls, for that matter.

 

[Emily Lake]

As far as I'm concerned, the word gender is a polite synonym for sex.

Ha! The admission! I remember when you were (angrily no less) pretending to understand the difference. Pants on fire, much?

Oh great gravy. I understand the distinction, I just think the concept of gender is bullshit and lacks any real meaning. Seriously, I understand the difference between mind and soul... and I also think that one of those things is a pointless concept without any substantial meaning.

Well, no. You don't understand the distinction, if you think those two terms are synonyms. Or equivalent to whiffy supernatural concepts like minds and souls, for that matter.

Fine then. You go ahead and define your terms. Give us all a definition of sex, gender, and gender identity in a way that actually makes some fucking sense.

I'll go first:

Sex: the evolved body type within an anisogamous species which is associated with reproduction. The body type that evolved in tandem with the production of large gametes is called female; the body type that evolved in tandem with the production of small gametes is called male.

Gender:
1) the set of socially constructed concepts that encompass the behaviors, presentations, roles, and stereotypes tied to the sexes within any given culture. This is a fluid construct that varies by culture and time
2) a synonym for sex because the word sex makes some people think about copulation and then they blush like gradeschoolers

Gender identity: the subjective and unverifiable feeling that some people have about which gender they wish that other people would see them as. This is often presented as if it is something all people always have, even if they don't think they do. It's presented as being innate, and of having the power to override or otherwise negate sex.

To me, gender (1) is religion - it's a set of constructed rules and expectations that might sometimes be useful but are neither fixed nor required for a functioning society. I reject gender (1) as having any real value or meaning in a developed world and I regard it as a pointless concept. Thus, I use gender (2) and it's synonymous with sex.

To me, gender identity is a personality quirk at best, but it usually used in a way that is indistinguishable from a soul. You can substitute the word "soul" in any discussion of "gender identity" and the meaning conveyed would not change in any material way whatsoever.

 

[Politesse]

Citation?

 

[Emily Lake]

I see you're not going to actually provide any of your own working definitions, and instead you'll just misdirect and play silly games. You're asking for a citation of my opinion and understanding? What the hell sense does that make?

 

[Politesse]

I see you're not going to actually provide any of your own working definitions, and instead you'll just misdirect and play silly games. You're asking for a citation of my opinion and understanding? What the hell sense does that make?

It's not about opinion versus opinion, the question is whether, on a very basic level, you understand the definitions of both of these terms. You can invent your own definitions all you like, but if you're pretending that every time someone else talks to you about sex, they mean the odd personal redefinitions that are in your head, you're going to be both confused and confusing.

 

[Emily Lake]

I see you're not going to actually provide any of your own working definitions, and instead you'll just misdirect and play silly games. You're asking for a citation of my opinion and understanding? What the hell sense does that make?

It's not about opinion versus opinion, the question is whether, on a very basic level, you understand the definitions of both of these terms. You can invent your own definitions all you like, but if you're pretending that every time someone else talks to you about sex, they mean the odd personal redefinitions that are in your head, you're going to be both confused and confusing.

I don't know what to tell you dude. Sex is the result of having evolved anisogamy, and in this context, I am using it to refer to the two distinctly different body types that have evolved in tandem with anisogamy. It's how we figure out which animal is male and which is female, indeed it's how we figure out which parts of a plant are male or female. If you want a citation... I offer up the entire field of evolutionary biology and the study of sexual development.

You've challenged my definitions a few times. What are yours? What definitions of sex, gender, and gender identity are you using?

 

[Politesse]

I offer up the entire field of evolutionary biology and the study of sexual development.

Your off-the-wall personal definitions cannot be found in any text on evolutionary biology or sexual development.

 

[Emily Lake]

I offer up the entire field of evolutionary biology and the study of sexual development.

Your off-the-wall personal definitions cannot be found in any text on evolutionary biology or sexual development.

And as yet you've still provided none of your own... Why is that, Poli?

Also... I sincerely doubt you even bothered trying to look it up.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bies.202200173

Of course, a meta-reference is always helpful:

Citations for the Gamete-Based Definition of Male and Female

A reference point for students, scientists, educators, and anyone interested in the biological understanding of “male” and “female.”

www.realityslaststand.com

 

[Politesse]

I offer up the entire field of evolutionary biology and the study of sexual development.

Your off-the-wall personal definitions cannot be found in any text on evolutionary biology or sexual development.

And as yet you've still provided none of your own... Why is that, Poli?

Also... I sincerely doubt you even bothered trying to look it up.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bies.202200173

Of course, a meta-reference is always helpful:

Citations for the Gamete-Based Definition of Male and Female

A reference point for students, scientists, educators, and anyone interested in the biological understanding of “male” and “female.”

www.realityslaststand.com

So, an opinion essay. Which starts with an acknowledgement that what they are asking for is not the current scientific consensus. And which does not contain anything like your provided definition in any case.

 

[Emily Lake]

Fuck it. Have it your way. Sex is totally just a social construct, nobody can tell which are the males and which are the females, and babies are placed under cabbage leaves by magical storks.

Your view is ideological pseudoscience claptrap on par with intelligent design. Congrats on buying into some Deepak Chopra level sci-fi mysticism.

 

[Politesse]

Fuck it. Have it your way. Sex is totally just a social construct, nobody can tell which are the males and which are the females, and babies are placed under cabbage leaves by magical storks.

No. Gender is a social construct. Sex refers to biologically distinct categories. You're just very confused about the nature of those categories, having gotten them so utterly confused with gender categories that the physiological facts of sex as they have been elucidated through the last century and a half of social and medical research, to say nothing of technological advancement, are completely lost on you.

 

[Emily Lake]

Fuck it. Have it your way. Sex is totally just a social construct, nobody can tell which are the males and which are the females, and babies are placed under cabbage leaves by magical storks.

No. Gender is a social construct. Sex refers to biologically distinct categories. You're just very confused about the nature of those categories, having gotten them so utterly confused with gender categories that the physiological facts of sex as they have been elucidated through the last century and a half of social and medical research, to say nothing of technological advancement, are completely lost on you.

You're the one who rejected the working definition of sex that I provided, demanded citations for male/female definitions based on anisogamous evolution, and then declared that it's an off-the-wall definition and isn't what biologists used.

I'm not at all confused by the difference between sex (which is a real, verifiable, evolved characteristic) and gender (which is a set of social stereotypes which are often restricting and prohibitive).

But whatever, dude. I'm tired of your schtick.

 

[Emily Lake]

Might I remind you that yet again, you have entirely failed to provide any actual working definitions of your own?

Fine then. You go ahead and define your terms. Give us all a definition of sex, gender, and gender identity in a way that actually makes some fucking sense.

I'll go first:

Sex: the evolved body type within an anisogamous species which is associated with reproduction. The body type that evolved in tandem with the production of large gametes is called female; the body type that evolved in tandem with the production of small gametes is called male.

Gender:
1) the set of socially constructed concepts that encompass the behaviors, presentations, roles, and stereotypes tied to the sexes within any given culture. This is a fluid construct that varies by culture and time
2) a synonym for sex because the word sex makes some people think about copulation and then they blush like gradeschoolers

Gender identity: the subjective and unverifiable feeling that some people have about which gender they wish that other people would see them as. This is often presented as if it is something all people always have, even if they don't think they do. It's presented as being innate, and of having the power to override or otherwise negate sex.

To me, gender (1) is religion - it's a set of constructed rules and expectations that might sometimes be useful but are neither fixed nor required for a functioning society. I reject gender (1) as having any real value or meaning in a developed world and I regard it as a pointless concept. Thus, I use gender (2) and it's synonymous with sex.

To me, gender identity is a personality quirk at best, but it usually used in a way that is indistinguishable from a soul. You can substitute the word "soul" in any discussion of "gender identity" and the meaning conveyed would not change in any material way whatsoever.