Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

So because the children were already sick makes denying them food okay??? That's some Nazi shit right there.

Get a clue!

Ever see a terminal cancer patient? Sure looks like they're starving, doesn't it. Does that mean someone is keeping food from them?? I've even seen an accusation of starving the patient.

 

[ZiprHead]

So because the children were already sick makes denying them food okay??? That's some Nazi shit right there.

Get a clue!

Ever see a terminal cancer patient? Sure looks like they're starving, doesn't it. Does that mean someone is keeping food from them?? I've even seen an accusation of starving the patient.

Were those kids cancer patients? Medicine is also blocked from entering Gaza.

 

[laughing dog]

So because the children were already sick makes denying them food okay??? That's some Nazi shit right there.

Get a clue!

Ever see a terminal cancer patient? Sure looks like they're starving, doesn't it. Does that mean someone is keeping food from them?? I've even seen an accusation of starving the patient.

Were those kids cancer patients? Medicine is also blocked from entering Gaza.

Notice LP avoids answering your question that did not mention starvation. Malnourishment exacerbates medical issues, especially in children. It is not common medical practice to withhold nourishment to the sick.

 

[laughing dog]

I have long said about aid being used for control. Somebody got around to actually studying it--even worse than I was aware of.

Aiding Who? Humanitarian Aid and the Continuation of War by Other Means

<p><strong>What must be done to aid civilians without simultaneously bankrolling those who harm them?</strong><br> We tackle this question through a comparati

papers.ssrn.com

The aid organizations know it's being diverted, they consider it normal. The 90% diversion in Gaza is not unusual.

Was there a reason this was the start of a new thread?

Yes, because the problem is universal. That paper is full of cases where the aid mostly or even entirely goes to the power blocks. I'm saying the 90% we see in Gaza is not an aberration from the norm.

Inspired by this thread.

Inspired, yes, but it's a worldwide problem. By merging it in here it's gotten totally buried. Aid basically enslaves the population while letting us pretend we are doing good.

Yeah, feeding the hungry is enslavement. Much better to let the surplus population die .

 

[Loren Pechtel]

When expat Palestinians complain about the situation in Gaza, I have never heard them direct most of their complaints toward Hamas. They used to complain about PLO in the 1980'ies a bit. But now their hatred seems utterly and completely directed towards Israel. That's a pretty extreme shift in radicalisation. We can debate all day why this is. But Gazans are not purely innocent victims here. Just like all Germans weren't innocent victims of Hitlers policies. Nor war the ISIS fighters innoncent victims of ISIS. No organisation can survive without plenty of grass root support.

Welcome to the Dr. Zoidberg tilt-a-whirl, where posts swing quickly back and forth between 'I feel for the Gazans, they are the victims of Hamas in this' and 'The Gazans are complicit with the crimes committed by Hamas against Israel'. Please make certain you are firmly strapped in, because this ride will jerk you all over more than riding an angry bull.

It must be difficult for you, with the world not being as simple as good guys and bad guys

It is you who are dividing this into good guys vs bad guys. Most of the rest of us find there are no good guys at all in this situation.

But you keep taking the positions Hamas wants you to take. They don't care that you hate them, they want you to give them power and you do.

Palestinians are both complicit to the crimes of Hamas as well as being its victim. At the same time

Despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Israel locked Gazans into a prison with Hamas, not Hamas. Gazans are not allowed to have weapons so the only weapons in Gaza are those smuggled in by Hamas, for Hamas. Hamas is just as brutal to Gazans that resist as they are to Israelis.

Your statement is utterly ridiculous.

Israel armed the police in Gaza in one of the peace deals--but there was near 100% overlap between "police" and "Hamas".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You make no sense. We have nation states, so we can act as a single unit in foreign policy. That's just how we have chosen to organise our world. Calling it collective punishment is absurd. But sure... I am the guy who struggles with reality... lol

I have no idea what that word salad means.

Your lack of understanding doesn't make it wrong.

The world consists of nation states. We do not consider it punishment when the inhabitants of a nation state are harmed by a war the nation state is engaged in. And Hamas/Gaza sure waddles and quacks like a nation state.

Gaza is a prison. Nothing more. Created by Israel.

Created by Egypt.

 

[Arctish]

This article is from Frontline, a highly regarded PBS documentary series with an excellent reputation for accuracy and fairness:

Timeline: War and Peace Between Israelis and Palestinians, From Oslo to Gaza

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There are several things your post leaves out. Gaza is indeed treated as a lower class area, in many ways, but there was the suicide bombing epidemic that kept repeating for over a year that precipitated the Israel response. When you keep getting weapons lobbed at you, some people becoming reactionaries isn't unusual. Of course, Israel has always had reactionaries. The West wasn't always so chummy with the nation of Israel.

Exactly. Israel doesn't do these things for giggles, they're in response to attacks.

That all said, limiting access to Israel didn't prevent the 10/7 massacre. And it didn't take much technology to perpetrate what happened that day.

And the result is going to be it's even more limited and thus Gaza is even worse off. Exactly as Hamas wants.

Israel is in an unenviable position of having mercy responded in kind with violence. Hamas' goal is to disrupt, nothing else. They don't want peace and they are incapable of following through on the mission statement. Walls only worked for so long. And 20 or so months of bombardment hasn't ended Hamas. As long as Iran backs Hamas, this isn't going to stop. Which makes what is going on right now seem fruitless and needless and counterproductive.

Exactly. There have been many decades of lessons that kind acts are rewarded with harm, harsh actions produce less harm. Is it any wonder that Israel takes the hard line these days? Want peace? Don't screw over Israel for moving in that direction.

But it's not fruitless--Israel can't really stop while there are still hostages. They should walk away and leave dozens of their people subject to torture for whatever is left of their life?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But there are INNOCENT people in this scenario, which DrZ seems to forget/ignore.

In conflicts between nations the people of the country that started the war are not considered innocent.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As much as it might make you feel uncomfortable, Jews have a right to defend themselves. You can’t send hundreds of suicide bombers over a border and then start crying when they put a wall up

Toni has already proven that the walls were put up before the suicide bombing campaign began. You do understand the concept of time, right?

The rest of your post is just the same insulting drivel you always post.

1) Fences were up, not walls.

2) So what if they did? A country is free to put any barrier it wants on it's borders, there is nothing wrongful in doing so.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

More collective punishment apologia.

You still haven't established the "punishment" part.

The Gazan population is no more or less responsible for the acts of their leaders than any other nation.

That is an utterly ridiculous statement. Is the population in N Korea resposible for their government?

I didn't say they were responsible, I said it's the same relationship. Nobody is going to call it punishment if the North Korean civilians suffer if the war goes hot again. Why do Gaza civilians have any different status than anyone else's?

No, you didn't. JFC, your quote is right there.

Yes, my quote is there. "no more or less". That doesn't specify a number, just equality.

We tried to avoid killing any more of the civilians in the Axis powers than we needed to but nobody was saying we can't go after Hitler because not every German elected him.

The city of Dresden would like to have a word with you.

1) Even if Dresden was wrong that doesn't change what I said.

2) There has been so much revisionism I no longer think we have much of a chance of even knowing if it's wrong.

You take it as self-evident the Jews are in the wrong and provide no proof, nor give fair consideration to evidence that you're wrong. Why should we see the-Jew-is-always-wrong as any different than the Jim Crow the-black-is-always-wrong? See why Z keeps using the term "antisemitism"?? I disagree with him on this, I think it's just the result of manipulation rather than true antisemitism, but it sure waddles and quacks.

There has been plenty of proof provided in this thread. You just reject it due to ideological reasons.

Proof? What we are objecting to is the double standard and that's not even being addressed. It's always Israel guilty unless proven innocent. How about the point I keep bringing up about the actions of "IDF snipers". Too much evidence (why do they keep happening in front of rolling cameras??) of improper targets being hit, zero evidence about who did the shooting. Yet you all blindly believe Hamas. Instead of objecting to "antisemitism" how about showing why it doesn't fit--because he's asked repeatedly and it's never addressed.

Israel is not being targeted by a double standard.

We have aid workers coming back saying this is not being done by "snipers" who work from the shadows so they cannot be identified but by Israelis soldiers doing so out in the open.

And you don't see the double standard?

The shooters work from the shadows and can't be identified. Thus it's Israel, why???

 

[DrZoidberg]

Palestinians are both complicit to the crimes of Hamas as well as being its victim. At the same time

Despite all the evidence to the contrary.

My bad. I guess all the hostages were just Israelis out on a bender in Gaza and got lost? I sure hope they get in touch when they sober up, and we can sort this whole thing out

Israel locked Gazans into a prison with Hamas, not Hamas. Gazans are not allowed to have weapons so the only weapons in Gaza are those smuggled in by Hamas, for Hamas. Hamas is just as brutal to Gazans that resist as they are to Israelis.

Your statement is utterly ridiculous.

And you're a tin foil hat loony.

Are you going to accuse the Jews of eating Christian babies next?

As much as it might make you feel uncomfortable, Jews have a right to defend themselves. You can’t send hundreds of suicide bombers over a border and then start crying when they put a wall up

Toni has already proven that the walls were put up before the suicide bombing campaign began. You do understand the concept of time, right?

I'm sorry. I must have missed when she expressed this fantasy. If only I could back in time to see that.

Gaza–Israel barrier - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

When they switched from a flimsy fence to an actual wall is when the suicide bombings stopped.

I'd call Toni a left wing extremist. And why left wing extremists have chosen to get in bed by Islamofacist terrorists.. I don't know. It's a mystery. Because Islamofascist hates the left wing. But it's what they have done. I don't get it.

The rest of your post is just the same insulting drivel you always post.

We have a sharp rise in antisemitic hate right now. People on the left, do not seem to care what's happening in Gaza. They just make up absurd bullshit stories, just so they can hate Jews. It doesn't matter how outlandish stories are spread. People just love hating Jews. Similar to how things went down in the 1930'ies. Enough people didn't speak up then. So I'm doing it now. You might think it's just Jews and nobody cares about Jews. But I don't like any minority being targetted like this. So I'm going to continue to call out bigots and racists on this forum.

I don't care if antisemites have their feelings hurt if their hatred against Jews get called out. I just don't. I think it's idiotic that that is what you get caught up on. And not the hate against an ethnic group just for belonging to that ethnic group

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

There are several things your post leaves out. Gaza is indeed treated as a lower class area, in many ways, but there was the suicide bombing epidemic that kept repeating for over a year that precipitated the Israel response. When you keep getting weapons lobbed at you, some people becoming reactionaries isn't unusual. Of course, Israel has always had reactionaries. The West wasn't always so chummy with the nation of Israel.

Exactly. Israel doesn't do these things for giggles, they're in response to attacks.

That all said, limiting access to Israel didn't prevent the 10/7 massacre. And it didn't take much technology to perpetrate what happened that day.

And the result is going to be it's even more limited and thus Gaza is even worse off. Exactly as Hamas wants.

Israel is in an unenviable position of having mercy responded in kind with violence. Hamas' goal is to disrupt, nothing else. They don't want peace and they are incapable of following through on the mission statement. Walls only worked for so long. And 20 or so months of bombardment hasn't ended Hamas. As long as Iran backs Hamas, this isn't going to stop. Which makes what is going on right now seem fruitless and needless and counterproductive.

Exactly. There have been many decades of lessons that kind acts are rewarded with harm, harsh actions produce less harm. Is it any wonder that Israel takes the hard line these days? Want peace? Don't screw over Israel for moving in that direction.

But it's not fruitless--Israel can't really stop while there are still hostages. They should walk away and leave dozens of their people subject to torture for whatever is left of their life?

Why in the heck would you suggest I think that the hostages should forever remain hostages? Are you that certain of your own infalible brain, that any other thoughts have to be wickedpy wrong?

ETA, one important thing to remember is that just because one side has a viable grievance, doesn't automatically make their response to the grievance constructive and/or moral.

I remember writing right after the 9/11 attack that the hope was in that when all was said and done, that 9/11 remained the outstanding moral atrocity, not our response to it.

 

[ZiprHead]

More collective punishment apologia.

You still haven't established the "punishment" part.

The Gazan population is no more or less responsible for the acts of their leaders than any other nation.

That is an utterly ridiculous statement. Is the population in N Korea resposible for their government?

I didn't say they were responsible, I said it's the same relationship. Nobody is going to call it punishment if the North Korean civilians suffer if the war goes hot again. Why do Gaza civilians have any different status than anyone else's?

No, you didn't. JFC, your quote is right there.

Yes, my quote is there. "no more or less". That doesn't specify a number, just equality.

We tried to avoid killing any more of the civilians in the Axis powers than we needed to but nobody was saying we can't go after Hitler because not every German elected him.

The city of Dresden would like to have a word with you.

1) Even if Dresden was wrong that doesn't change what I said.

2) There has been so much revisionism I no longer think we have much of a chance of even knowing if it's wrong.

You take it as self-evident the Jews are in the wrong and provide no proof, nor give fair consideration to evidence that you're wrong. Why should we see the-Jew-is-always-wrong as any different than the Jim Crow the-black-is-always-wrong? See why Z keeps using the term "antisemitism"?? I disagree with him on this, I think it's just the result of manipulation rather than true antisemitism, but it sure waddles and quacks.

There has been plenty of proof provided in this thread. You just reject it due to ideological reasons.

Proof? What we are objecting to is the double standard and that's not even being addressed. It's always Israel guilty unless proven innocent. How about the point I keep bringing up about the actions of "IDF snipers". Too much evidence (why do they keep happening in front of rolling cameras??) of improper targets being hit, zero evidence about who did the shooting. Yet you all blindly believe Hamas. Instead of objecting to "antisemitism" how about showing why it doesn't fit--because he's asked repeatedly and it's never addressed.

Israel is not being targeted by a double standard.

We have aid workers coming back saying this is not being done by "snipers" who work from the shadows so they cannot be identified but by Israelis soldiers doing so out in the open.

And you don't see the double standard?

The shooters work from the shadows and can't be identified. Thus it's Israel, why???

Did your train of thought derail before you got to the second half of the last sentence???

 

[ZiprHead]

As much as it might make you feel uncomfortable, Jews have a right to defend themselves. You can’t send hundreds of suicide bombers over a border and then start crying when they put a wall up

Toni has already proven that the walls were put up before the suicide bombing campaign began. You do understand the concept of time, right?

The rest of your post is just the same insulting drivel you always post.

1) Fences were up, not walls.

2) So what if they did? A country is free to put any barrier it wants on it's borders, there is nothing wrongful in doing so.

Gaza is now another country?

 

[ZiprHead]

But there are INNOCENT people in this scenario, which DrZ seems to forget/ignore.

In conflicts between nations the people of the country that started the war are not considered innocent.

Since when??? Is there some place I can read this fanatastical rule?

 

[ZiprHead]

When expat Palestinians complain about the situation in Gaza, I have never heard them direct most of their complaints toward Hamas. They used to complain about PLO in the 1980'ies a bit. But now their hatred seems utterly and completely directed towards Israel. That's a pretty extreme shift in radicalisation. We can debate all day why this is. But Gazans are not purely innocent victims here. Just like all Germans weren't innocent victims of Hitlers policies. Nor war the ISIS fighters innoncent victims of ISIS. No organisation can survive without plenty of grass root support.

Welcome to the Dr. Zoidberg tilt-a-whirl, where posts swing quickly back and forth between 'I feel for the Gazans, they are the victims of Hamas in this' and 'The Gazans are complicit with the crimes committed by Hamas against Israel'. Please make certain you are firmly strapped in, because this ride will jerk you all over more than riding an angry bull.

It must be difficult for you, with the world not being as simple as good guys and bad guys

It is you who are dividing this into good guys vs bad guys. Most of the rest of us find there are no good guys at all in this situation.

But you keep taking the positions Hamas wants you to take. They don't care that you hate them, they want you to give them power and you do.

I don't have any power to give to anyone.

Palestinians are both complicit to the crimes of Hamas as well as being its victim. At the same time

Despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Israel locked Gazans into a prison with Hamas, not Hamas. Gazans are not allowed to have weapons so the only weapons in Gaza are those smuggled in by Hamas, for Hamas. Hamas is just as brutal to Gazans that resist as they are to Israelis.

Your statement is utterly ridiculous.

Israel armed the police in Gaza in one of the peace deals--but there was near 100% overlap between "police" and "Hamas".

Historically, Israel provided weapons to the Palestinian Authority's security forces, which include the Gaza police, as part of the 1993 and 1995 Oslo Peace Accords signed by Israel and the Palestinians.
However, Hamas won the 2006 Palestinian parliamentary elections and subsequently ousted the Palestinian Authority from Gaza in 2007, seizing control of the territory. Since then, Israel and Egypt have imposed a blockade on the Gaza Strip.

Hamas took control more than ten years later.

 

[ZiprHead]

We have a sharp rise in antisemitic hate right now.

This I agree with and it should stop. We have actual Nazis marching in the streets in the US.

People on the left, do not seem to care what's happening in Gaza. They just make up absurd bullshit stories, just so they can hate Jews. It doesn't matter how outlandish stories are spread. People just love hating Jews. Similar to how things went down in the 1930'ies. Enough people didn't speak up then. So I'm doing it now. You might think it's just Jews and nobody cares about Jews. But I don't like any minority being targetted like this. So I'm going to continue to call out bigots and racists on this forum.

I don't care if antisemites have their feelings hurt if their hatred against Jews get called out. I just don't. I think it's idiotic that that is what you get caught up on. And not the hate against an ethnic group just for belonging to that ethnic group

Most of what you consider to be BS is not. You just refuse to believe it. Then you unjustifiably call people names.

 

[Toni]

I have long said about aid being used for control. Somebody got around to actually studying it--even worse than I was aware of.

Aiding Who? Humanitarian Aid and the Continuation of War by Other Means

<p><strong>What must be done to aid civilians without simultaneously bankrolling those who harm them?</strong><br> We tackle this question through a comparati

papers.ssrn.com

The aid organizations know it's being diverted, they consider it normal. The 90% diversion in Gaza is not unusual.

Was there a reason this was the start of a new thread?

Yes, because the problem is universal. That paper is full of cases where the aid mostly or even entirely goes to the power blocks. I'm saying the 90% we see in Gaza is not an aberration from the norm.

Inspired by this thread.

Inspired, yes, but it's a worldwide problem. By merging it in here it's gotten totally buried. Aid basically enslaves the population while letting us pretend we are doing good.

Please explain how Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and heads of other large corporations and the corporations themselves are slaves? Does their enslavement make them think that it is ok to enrich CEOs while not paying their fair share of taxes? While paying their workers a sub living wage? Are they racing to see who can become the first trillionaire in order to assuage the wounds their slavery due to all of the corporate welfare they’re forced to accept?

Loren, you make zero sense.

 

[DrZoidberg]

As much as it might make you feel uncomfortable, Jews have a right to defend themselves. You can’t send hundreds of suicide bombers over a border and then start crying when they put a wall up

Toni has already proven that the walls were put up before the suicide bombing campaign began. You do understand the concept of time, right?

The rest of your post is just the same insulting drivel you always post.

1) Fences were up, not walls.

2) So what if they did? A country is free to put any barrier it wants on it's borders, there is nothing wrongful in doing so.

Gaza is now another country?

Don't split hairs. Gaza was independent enough to have its own army. As well as a completely independent and separate economy.

With your logic North and South Korea is also just one country?