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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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Yes, also it being different times and different situations is not lost on me.

Edit: I’ll expand on my thoughts later, right now my wife is asking for some quality time. Honestly, I hope that one day no Israeli or Palestinian has to lose moments like this with their loved ones because of this conflict.
 
This war is unique. Never before has a side in a war intentionally put it's own civilians in harms way. The Palestinian civilians are trapped in Gaza. That is also, almost unique. When there's a war in an urban area, civilians always get the fuck out.
Which side has had them locked in, for decades?

<snip>
Wow, haven’t been in thread for a while and the very first thing I see is you breaking the rules again by libeling people.

Post reported.

I'm going to keep taking a stand against racism in this thread. The moment this site actively defends and protects racists, I'm out of here. Then I should be banned, because this site won't be for me.

I'm going to keep calling out antisemitism in this thread.
 
I'm going to keep taking a stand against racism in this thread. The moment this site actively defends and protects racists, I'm out of here. Then I should be banned, because this site won't be for me.

I'm going to keep calling out antisemitism in this thread.
You know I agree with you about the basics on this. But even I find your use of the term antisemitism very annoying. It's just way too counterproductive and needlessly insulting.

It's also just flat out wrong.
Tom
 
No Arab nation ever codified ‘kill all Jews’ as official policy. But Nazi propaganda absolutely bled into the region, Husseini’s partnership with Hitler exported that poison, and Hamas later picked up those tropes. That’s not the same thing as a blanket Arab policy. The problem is, history itself feels antisemitic to DrZoidberg, so as long as he keeps derailing into that angle, there’s no way to have a deeper good-faith discussion. Which just leaves IIDB spinning in the same circles as every other platform. :rolleyes:


You just don’t understand how Arab culture and Islam works in the Middle-East. We get a warped understanding of it because we in the west have a lot of contact with second generation Arab immigrants. And they don't get it either. That’s why so many suicide bombers are recruited among second generation Arab immigrants.

In the Arab/Muslim rhetoric Islam owns the middle east. Christians and Jews are tolerated as long as they accept being second class citizens.

Arabs didn't have a problem with Jews until the founding of Israel in 1948. When they all, all at the same time, kicked out their Jews and sent them to Israel.

The modern nation states of the Middle East were built by the colonial collaborators, who sold out their people to gain power. When the colonial system collapsed, these people took power. The same groups and families still hold political power. They're not popular among the people. And before this it was local collaborators to the Ottomans. The Arabs equate having power with being a theif and a sell out.

As a result the Middle-East doesn't have nation states in the same way we do in the west. They're not loyal to their nation for the same reasons. Its just a different tradition. Because, history, took some different turns

The Middle-Eastern nation states stay in power through brutality and repression. They also, typically, suppress militant Islam. Because Islam is also a problem for the Middle-Eastern nation states. As it was for the Ottomans. Which explains why it was such a shit show when Iran got ruled by the Ayatollah.

Anyway... the Middle-Eastern Arab countries are not democracies and their official stances do not need to reflect:

1. Their actions
2. The people's opinions
3. Nor the actual policies of the government

The antisemitism of the Middle-East is a nuisance for most Middle-Eastern governments as well. Israel is a stable democracy. Not a kleptocracy. Of course all the Arab countries would prefer doing business with Israel. So they do it as much as they can. Without the people rising up.

They don't want to murder all the Jews, but feel they have to pretend like they do.

Different countries have different histories. So there’s variations. But this is the general story of them.

Iran isn't an Arab nation. It's quite different
 
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The main difference between Israel and Islam is that Islamists’ leaders are right up front about wanting to wipe out Israel and Israeli Jews, whereas Israel’s leadership wants to wipe out Gazan and West Bank Muslims without ever having to admit that was their goal.
Nah, bullshit.
Zionists want one small country where Jewish people can be safe from the government. Permanently.
Muslim supremacists will kill and die to keep Zionists out. It's what supremacists do.

The big problem for Gazans right now is the degree to which Muslim supremacists will sacrifice Gazans to achieve the ethnic cleansing of Israel. If the Muslim supremacists would let Gazans move towards peace and prosperity, by cooperation with Israel, things could start improving for the regular people. But the use of Gazans for cannon fodder and human shields continues to benefit Islamic terrorists, so I am not expecting any big improvement for the foreseeable future.
Tom

Let's not forget that a lot of the Gazans, (if not most) are also Muslim supremacists, and likely have been since the time of Mohammed. Which is why they've been such a willing tool for organisations like Hamas.

When expat Palestinians complain about the situation in Gaza, I have never heard them direct most of their complaints toward Hamas. They used to complain about PLO in the 1980'ies a bit. But now their hatred seems utterly and completely directed towards Israel. That's a pretty extreme shift in radicalisation. We can debate all day why this is. But Gazans are not purely innocent victims here. Just like all Germans weren't innocent victims of Hitlers policies. Nor war the ISIS fighters innoncent victims of ISIS. No organisation can survive without plenty of grass root support.
 
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When expat Palestinians complain about the situation in Gaza, I have never heard them direct most of their complaints toward Hamas. They used to complain about PLO in the 1980'ies a bit. But now their hatred seems utterly and completely directed towards Israel. That's a pretty extreme shift in radicalisation. We can debate all day why this is. But Gazans are not purely innocent victims here. Just like all Germans weren't innocent victims of Hitlers policies. Nor war the ISIS fighters innoncent victims of ISIS. No organisation can survive without plenty of grass root support.
Welcome to the Dr. Zoidberg tilt-a-whirl, where posts swing quickly back and forth between 'I feel for the Gazans, they are the victims of Hamas in this' and 'The Gazans are complicit with the crimes committed by Hamas against Israel'. Please make certain you are firmly strapped in, because this ride will jerk you all over more than riding an angry bull.
 
When expat Palestinians complain about the situation in Gaza, I have never heard them direct most of their complaints toward Hamas. They used to complain about PLO in the 1980'ies a bit. But now their hatred seems utterly and completely directed towards Israel. That's a pretty extreme shift in radicalisation. We can debate all day why this is. But Gazans are not purely innocent victims here. Just like all Germans weren't innocent victims of Hitlers policies. Nor war the ISIS fighters innoncent victims of ISIS. No organisation can survive without plenty of grass root support.
Welcome to the Dr. Zoidberg tilt-a-whirl, where posts swing quickly back and forth between 'I feel for the Gazans, they are the victims of Hamas in this' and 'The Gazans are complicit with the crimes committed by Hamas against Israel'. Please make certain you are firmly strapped in, because this ride will jerk you all over more than riding an angry bull.
And as happens a lot on this thread,
The response to Zoid's post has no discussion, just empty insults.

Tom
 
When expat Palestinians complain about the situation in Gaza, I have never heard them direct most of their complaints toward Hamas. They used to complain about PLO in the 1980'ies a bit. But now their hatred seems utterly and completely directed towards Israel. That's a pretty extreme shift in radicalisation. We can debate all day why this is. But Gazans are not purely innocent victims here. Just like all Germans weren't innocent victims of Hitlers policies. Nor war the ISIS fighters innoncent victims of ISIS. No organisation can survive without plenty of grass root support.
Welcome to the Dr. Zoidberg tilt-a-whirl, where posts swing quickly back and forth between 'I feel for the Gazans, they are the victims of Hamas in this' and 'The Gazans are complicit with the crimes committed by Hamas against Israel'. Please make certain you are firmly strapped in, because this ride will jerk you all over more than riding an angry bull.
And as happens a lot on this thread,
The response to Zoid's post has no discussion, just empty insults.

Tom
The irony in your response is tepid compared to the irony of the “antiracism” trope of Dr Z.

The plain fact is no objective evidence of antisemitism, or terrorist apologia, or support for Hamas, or pro genocide, in any posts that are critical of Israel’s policies or actions. That has not stopped the supporters of Israel as a group in this thread from flinging such insults or providing apologia for them.
 
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When expat Palestinians complain about the situation in Gaza, I have never heard them direct most of their complaints toward Hamas. They used to complain about PLO in the 1980'ies a bit. But now their hatred seems utterly and completely directed towards Israel. That's a pretty extreme shift in radicalisation. We can debate all day why this is. But Gazans are not purely innocent victims here. Just like all Germans weren't innocent victims of Hitlers policies. Nor war the ISIS fighters innoncent victims of ISIS. No organisation can survive without plenty of grass root support.
Welcome to the Dr. Zoidberg tilt-a-whirl, where posts swing quickly back and forth between 'I feel for the Gazans, they are the victims of Hamas in this' and 'The Gazans are complicit with the crimes committed by Hamas against Israel'. Please make certain you are firmly strapped in, because this ride will jerk you all over more than riding an angry bull.
And as happens a lot on this thread,
The response to Zoid's post has no discussion, just empty insults.
It is true, the content in my post was lacking, however, there were no insults (against forum rules). It was remarking that Dr. Zoidberg's posts flap back and forth like a wind sock puppet at a car dealership when it comes to how Dr. Zoidberg wants to project his opinion of the Gazans. Kind of like how your posts swap back and forth on whether there is suffering or not in Gaza or whether they are complicit as well and therefore it doesn't matter if there is suffering.

This thread stopped being useful for discussion a long while ago and has been wandered into paralleled self-proclamations territory.
 
Welcome to the Dr. Zoidberg tilt-a-whirl, where posts swing quickly back and forth between 'I feel for the Gazans, they are the victims of Hamas in this' and 'The Gazans are complicit with the crimes committed by Hamas against Israel'. Please make certain you are firmly strapped in, because this ride will jerk you all over more than riding an angry bull.
And as happens a lot on this thread,
The response to Zoid's post has no discussion, just empty insults.

Tom
The irony in your response is tepid compared to the irony of the “antiracism” trope of Dr Z.

The plain fact is no objective evidence of antisemitism, or terrorist apologia, or support for Hamas, or pro genocide, in any posts that are critical of Israel’s policies or actions. That has not stopped the supporters of Israel Netanyahu's tactics as a group in this thread from flinging such insults or providing apologia for them.
FIFY. I, as many others, fully support Israel and their right to be free from violence. But like the many Israelis protesting in Israel at the moment, I do not support Netanyahu's decisions this far out from the massacre, nor his attempt to move the entire Gazan population into Egypt. These actions are more endangering Israelis than protecting.
 



 



Stop reporting what Hamas wants you to say!
 

It's a few months old but I don't think anything has gotten better since then.
 
I have long said about aid being used for control. Somebody got around to actually studying it--even worse than I was aware of.


The aid organizations know it's being diverted, they consider it normal. The 90% diversion in Gaza is not unusual.
 
He also mentions something that I hadn't heard. But that's that Hamas was using the UN aid, and to distribute it in a way, to force Palestinian civilians to have to stay in places that were strategically valuable. To act as human shields in Northern Gaza. While Israel wanted to move Palestinians to southern Gaza... out of harms way. The only way to do that was to shut off UN aid and set up their own aid distribution. Which they then did. Hamas then did everything they could to disrupt the USAID distribution system. Including forbidding Gazans to take the aid. Any Gazan who takes USAID has been threatened with stiff penalties after the war if they take it. He repeated that there was a 11 week period when Gazans didn't get food and other aid. After that Gazans have been flooded with food. There's no shortage of food in Gaza now. Anywhere in Gaza.

If you just want a good summary of how wars work, and should work and how the Gaza war fits into that it's a good video.
I wasn't aware of Hamas using it to force people to be in harm's way, but the rest of it is no surprise.

I recently encountered a study about this that I decided to make into a separate thread:
 
We like to hold up the Nazis and imperial Japanese as examples of terrible warring nations. As if they're the worst and most devoid of morals.

But the fact is that Hamas is way worse than the Nazis ever were.

They've set a new standard of how godawful an army can be
And ^there^ it is folks.

The redemption of the Nazis, made possible by the need to exaggerate the threat of a Palestinian terrorist organization.

The Nazis persecuted and enslaved Jews, confined them in concentration camps, built death camps so they could slaughter Jews by the millions, conducted horrific experiments on them, castrated and sterilized them without anesthesia, suffocated them in the backs of specially built trucks or simply shot or drowned them, built "showers" so they could herd Jews into gas chambers and then move the bodies to incinerators like a factory moves widgets, and so much more, but at least they weren't as bad as Hamas.

:rolleyes:
Redemption? Saying they aren't the greatest evil isn't redemption.
 
I have merged the "Ethnic Cleansing" thread into this one. It was originally just a whataboutism of this thread anyway.
It wasn't whataboutism, it was pointing out the distorted reporting. It got derailed into matching this thread, though.
 
No, what you are looking at is what comes out of the dog’s ass.
No. I'm recognizing the deception.
There are pictures of malnourished people. Both the UN and MSF report a large increase in malnutrition rates in children based on large samples.
At this point I don't care what the UN and MSF say, neither are remotely credible.

What's absolutely damning is that Hamas can't find them.
All their cases (12, I wasn't aware of some of them) have other medical causes.

With those reports along with a quarter of a year blockade of food and medicine followed by a resumption of 1/3 as much aid allowed in (IDF numbers), it only makes sense to rational thinkers that malnutrition substantially increased.
Check your source--is it truly IDF numbers, or UN numbers? Because 1/3 is about the percent of what's coming in that goes via the UN.

Denial that the gov’t of Israel’s blockade caused malnutrition is unbelievable. Such denials reduce credibility to less than zero.
One can sanely argue that malnutrition is the cost of such a legitimate tactic of war. It may not convince some, but it is honest and grounded firmly in reality.
If there really was malnutrition I find it utterly unbelievable that Hamas could find 12 fake cases and zero real cases.


Your denial is neither. It is incredibly insulting that any person with even a shred of integrity and rationality would expect any sane thinking person to accept such denials as valid.

Which makes me worried for you.
You still haven't addressed the issue of why Hamas can't find what is supposedly everywhere.
 
The 90% diversion in Gaza is not unusual.
Nor is it documented afaik. Source?

What I read is that the preponderance of expert analyses find that while some aid is lost due to theft, corruption, or involvement of various armed actors (including criminal gangs and possibly Hamas-affiliated individuals), the magnitude of diversion cannot be reliably quantified and is not regarded as “widespread” or massive. I think that if it was anywherevnearbyour 90% figure, there would be some documentation.
 
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