Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

No, what you are looking at is what comes out of the dog’s ass.

No. I'm recognizing the deception.

There are pictures of malnourished people. Both the UN and MSF report a large increase in malnutrition rates in children based on large samples.

At this point I don't care what the UN and MSF say, neither are remotely credible.

What's absolutely damning is that Hamas can't find them.

They Became Symbols for Gazan Starvation. But All 12 Suffer from Other Health Problems.

A Free Press investigation found that the viral photos lacked important context: The subjects have cystic fibrosis, rickets, or other serious ailments.

www.thefp.com

All their cases (12, I wasn't aware of some of them) have other medical causes.

With those reports along with a quarter of a year blockade of food and medicine followed by a resumption of 1/3 as much aid allowed in (IDF numbers), it only makes sense to rational thinkers that malnutrition substantially increased.

Check your source--is it truly IDF numbers, or UN numbers? Because 1/3 is about the percent of what's coming in that goes via the UN.

Denial that the gov’t of Israel’s blockade caused malnutrition is unbelievable. Such denials reduce credibility to less than zero.
One can sanely argue that malnutrition is the cost of such a legitimate tactic of war. It may not convince some, but it is honest and grounded firmly in reality.

If there really was malnutrition I find it utterly unbelievable that Hamas could find 12 fake cases and zero real cases.

Your denial is neither. It is incredibly insulting that any person with even a shred of integrity and rationality would expect any sane thinking person to accept such denials as valid.

Which makes me worried for you.

You still haven't addressed the issue of why Hamas can't find what is supposedly everywhere.

View attachment 51834

And you think that makes those 12 cases go away?

I was only aware of four but the point remains: everything's fake, nothing's real. The exact number of fakes isn't that important, the fact that Hamas can't find a real one should be deafening.

 

[Arctish]

We like to hold up the Nazis and imperial Japanese as examples of terrible warring nations. As if they're the worst and most devoid of morals.

But the fact is that Hamas is way worse than the Nazis ever were.

They've set a new standard of how godawful an army can be

And ^there^ it is folks.

The redemption of the Nazis, made possible by the need to exaggerate the threat of a Palestinian terrorist organization.

The Nazis persecuted and enslaved Jews, confined them in concentration camps, built death camps so they could slaughter Jews by the millions, conducted horrific experiments on them, castrated and sterilized them without anesthesia, suffocated them in the backs of specially built trucks or simply shot or drowned them, built "showers" so they could herd Jews into gas chambers and then move the bodies to incinerators like a factory moves widgets, and so much more, but at least they weren't as bad as Hamas.

Redemption? Saying they aren't the greatest evil isn't redemption.

It is when Nazis move from absolute worst to not-as-bad so Hamas can be made to sound like they're the ones who used the skin of murdered Jews to make lampshades.

Do you agree with DrZoidberg? Do you believe that Hamas is way worse than the Nazis ever were?

If you don't, if you think the Nazis are still the worst and most devoid of morals then you should say so, because right now it looks like you're preparing to spout bullshit so you can claim a terrorist attack on a music festival than left 1600 people dead was worse than the creation and operation of Buchenwald, Auschwitz, Sobibor, Treblinka, etc., where millions were murdered.

Comes down to yardsticks.

The Nazis unquestionably killed far more. But the gas chambers were about making it easier on the people doing the killing. Hamas glorifies atrocities, though. I find their intent far worse.

What intent do you find far worse than the Nazi intent to kill all Jews, everywhere?

And just so we are very clear on this point, you are attempting to diminish the awfulness of creating gas chambers disguised as showers and forcing Jews into them by claiming the Nazis who did it had a benign intent to make things easier on their fellow Nazis doing the murdering. How very nice. By that measure you should be praising Hamas for making over 50,000 booby traps so their fighters could sit back and watch the show when IDF soldiers trigger them instead of having to fight the IDF directly.

 

[laughing dog]

The plain fact is no objective evidence of antisemitism, or terrorist apologia, or support for Hamas, or pro genocide, in any posts that are critical of Israel’s policies or actions. That has not stopped the supporters of Israel as a group in this thread from flinging such insults or providing apologia for them.

Refusing to see it doesn't make it not exist.

Truly ironic coming from a denier of malnutrition in Gaza.

Explain the automatic acceptance of anything Hamas says, the automatic rejection of what Israel says. Hamas shows people conveniently shot in front of cameras by supposed IDF snipers, nobody will actually address the fact that makes an awful lot more sense to be Hamas doing it.

I cannot explain your straw nan first sentence.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, what you are looking at is what comes out of the dog’s ass.

No. I'm recognizing the deception.

There are pictures of malnourished people. Both the UN and MSF report a large increase in malnutrition rates in children based on large samples.

At this point I don't care what the UN and MSF say, neither are remotely credible.

They are more credible than your hand-waved denials of substantiated facts.

I see no point in dealing with someone devoid of interest in the facts.

Neither has detected nor even acknowledged the bad data Israel found despite supposedly verifying the data.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The issue is not about objecting to certain actions. The objection is with the automatic belief in anything Hamas claimed happened even if improbable, and the automatic rejection of anything Israel says, even when it's what should be expected to have happened.

I also reject Hanas’s assertions and I do not automatically disbelieve Israel. I’m very firmly on the side of Israel having the right to exist and that no one should be targeted for their religious beliefs or to score political points.

Then how about considering that some of the horrors you blame on Israel were really Hamas.

I believe that both sides are guilty of horrendous acts of violence targeting citizens specifically. There is so much guilt on both sides that frankly they should be under a forced cease fire in perpetuity.

Who could enforce it? We've seen what happened when the UN "tried" in Lebanon. (Quotes because from day 1 they have been trashcanning all reports.)

 

[DrZoidberg]

When expat Palestinians complain about the situation in Gaza, I have never heard them direct most of their complaints toward Hamas. They used to complain about PLO in the 1980'ies a bit. But now their hatred seems utterly and completely directed towards Israel. That's a pretty extreme shift in radicalisation. We can debate all day why this is. But Gazans are not purely innocent victims here. Just like all Germans weren't innocent victims of Hitlers policies. Nor war the ISIS fighters innoncent victims of ISIS. No organisation can survive without plenty of grass root support.

Welcome to the Dr. Zoidberg tilt-a-whirl, where posts swing quickly back and forth between 'I feel for the Gazans, they are the victims of Hamas in this' and 'The Gazans are complicit with the crimes committed by Hamas against Israel'. Please make certain you are firmly strapped in, because this ride will jerk you all over more than riding an angry bull.

It must be difficult for you, with the world not being as simple as good guys and bad guys

Palestinians are both complicit to the crimes of Hamas as well as being its victim. At the same time

 

[DrZoidberg]

BBC witnesses Israeli settlers' attack on Palestinian farm in West Bank

A BBC team was interviewing a Palestinian farmer when masked men charged towards them.

www.bbc.com

Israeli forces detain Palestinian culture minister after illegal settlers’ attack in occupied West Bank

Israeli forces on Monday detained Palestinian Culture Minister Imad Hamdan and members of his delegation during a visit to Kafr Ni’ma, west of Ramallah in the occupied West Bank, local media said. …

www.middleeastmonitor.com

Israel approves settlement project that could divide the West Bank

Israel has given final approval for a controversial settlement project that would effectively cut the occupied West Bank in two.

apnews.com

In West Bank visit, Netanyahu boasts he met promise to thwart Palestinian state

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

Yes, the settlers have stepped up their activities on the west bank. They're doing it while the Israeli government are busy elsewhere.

They're not good people. I won't defend them. Almost all other Jews hate them. Because they’re the source of so much friction with the Palestinians.

But it's not like the Palestinians on the west bank doesn't retaliate. Which is why the IDF is forced to get involved. They'd rather not. Because there's a war on elsewhere

 

[DrZoidberg]

And as happens a lot on this thread,
The response to Zoid's post has no discussion, just empty insults.

That's antisemitism of the worst kind.

Apparently.

Calling an antisemite an antisemite isn't an empty insult. Its a desciption of a behaviour. I think calling it out is more important than ever right now

I find this latest rise in antisemitism distressing. My conclusion is that it's been latent all the time. Its just sad to see we haven't progressed more

 

[DrZoidberg]

I have long said about aid being used for control. Somebody got around to actually studying it--even worse than I was aware of.

Aiding Who? Humanitarian Aid and the Continuation of War by Other Means

<p><strong>What must be done to aid civilians without simultaneously bankrolling those who harm them?</strong><br> We tackle this question through a comparati

papers.ssrn.com

The aid organizations know it's being diverted, they consider it normal. The 90% diversion in Gaza is not unusual.

Why do you only say 90%? The UN uses Hamas to distribute all their aid. As a result Hamas has total control of all UN aid. It'll go wherever they think it'll do the most good. Which means distributiing it wherever Hamas needs human shields to protect its fighters. Forcing civilians to live in active battle grounds

 

[DrZoidberg]

No, what you are looking at is what comes out of the dog’s ass.

No. I'm recognizing the deception.

There are pictures of malnourished people. Both the UN and MSF report a large increase in malnutrition rates in children based on large samples.

At this point I don't care what the UN and MSF say, neither are remotely credible.

What's absolutely damning is that Hamas can't find them.

They Became Symbols for Gazan Starvation. But All 12 Suffer from Other Health Problems.

A Free Press investigation found that the viral photos lacked important context: The subjects have cystic fibrosis, rickets, or other serious ailments.

www.thefp.com

All their cases (12, I wasn't aware of some of them) have other medical causes.

With those reports along with a quarter of a year blockade of food and medicine followed by a resumption of 1/3 as much aid allowed in (IDF numbers), it only makes sense to rational thinkers that malnutrition substantially increased.

Check your source--is it truly IDF numbers, or UN numbers? Because 1/3 is about the percent of what's coming in that goes via the UN.

Denial that the gov’t of Israel’s blockade caused malnutrition is unbelievable. Such denials reduce credibility to less than zero.
One can sanely argue that malnutrition is the cost of such a legitimate tactic of war. It may not convince some, but it is honest and grounded firmly in reality.

If there really was malnutrition I find it utterly unbelievable that Hamas could find 12 fake cases and zero real cases.

Your denial is neither. It is incredibly insulting that any person with even a shred of integrity and rationality would expect any sane thinking person to accept such denials as valid.

Which makes me worried for you.

You still haven't addressed the issue of why Hamas can't find what is supposedly everywhere.

There never was any starvation in Gaza. I too was initially fooled by the reports.

The truth is that between the UN aid being shut down and usaid taking over there was an 11 week window where food didn't enter. During which time there was no shortage of food, at any time

Once usaid got fully operational they flooded Gaza with food, making it impossible for Hamas to use the UN aid to control where Gazans go to get food. That's been the case ever since.

We can stop talking about the starvation in Gaza. It never happened. What happened was that Hamas was using the UN aid in order to force Gazans to be human shields. Gazans now have so much food that is not possible for Hamas anymore.

Why do some journalists keep talking about starvation? Perhaps they have an agenda

 

[DrZoidberg]

As we're all aware, the media isn't interested in the Israeli perspective. So here's an interview with Mr Netanyahu himself, explaining why Israel has done all the things they've done. Worth noting is that his priority in this interview is on getting reelected in Israel.

You're welcome

 

[DrZoidberg]

In the Arab/Muslim rhetoric Islam owns the middle east. Christians and Jews are tolerated as long as they accept being second class citizens.

Same as uppity blacks in Jim Crow. Same as a woman escaping her abuser. Things turn much more violent when someone tries to throw off their chains. And the Jews not only threw off their chains, but did so in land Islam considered conquered.

Middle-East has a collectivist culture. It's the duty of the majority culture to bully minorities, or anyone with individualistic ambitions into compliance. They see this as a virtue. This is why honour killings is a thing. Why gays are murdered in the streets. These are not western liberal values. It's quite different.

Muslims in the Middle-East see them allowing Jews to have a sovereign state in the holy land as a collective embarrasment and a collective failure. It'll continue to be seen as humiliating for them until all Jews in the Middle-East have been subjugated. Westerners just don't think like that. So we don't get why Muslims are so aggressive against Israel. From our perspective, that degree of hatred is bizarre. So we invent all kinds of narratives that might justify Muslim hatred towards Jews. As a result we've reawoken western antisemitism.

Jews in Israel being sick and tired or Muslim arrogance and wanting to be free of it in 1948 isn't them being uppity. That's a misreading of history. The main problem with Palestinians is that Palestinians see it as humiliating to be forced to treat Jews as an equal. Why would Jews... or anyone... put up with that kind of behaviour, unless they're forced to. They won't, and they don't.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

BBC witnesses Israeli settlers' attack on Palestinian farm in West Bank

A BBC team was interviewing a Palestinian farmer when masked men charged towards them.

www.bbc.com

Israeli forces detain Palestinian culture minister after illegal settlers’ attack in occupied West Bank

Israeli forces on Monday detained Palestinian Culture Minister Imad Hamdan and members of his delegation during a visit to Kafr Ni’ma, west of Ramallah in the occupied West Bank, local media said. …

www.middleeastmonitor.com

Israel approves settlement project that could divide the West Bank

Israel has given final approval for a controversial settlement project that would effectively cut the occupied West Bank in two.

apnews.com

In West Bank visit, Netanyahu boasts he met promise to thwart Palestinian state

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

Yes, the settlers have stepped up their activities on the west bank.

Settlement expansion has been going on for decades. It’s not just an uptick in activity—it’s part of a long-standing state policy that began after 1967* and has accelerated under right-wing governments. *Or one could argue it started in 1949**. ** Or the 15th century BCE. etc etc.

They're doing it while the Israeli government are busy elsewhere.

The government is not “too busy to notice”—it actively approves, funds, and protects settlements. The latest cabinet decision (see the AP and Times of Israel links above) shows that Netanyahu’s coalition explicitly supports settlement growth, not just as a side effect, but as a central policy goal.

They're not good people. I won't defend them.

But earlier you defended them as Jews pushed out of urban centers, not as religious extremists. That inconsistency matters—because the settlement movement isn’t just a handful of radicals. It has state sanction and broad political support.

Almost all other Jews hate them.

That’s not borne out by the data. Surveys consistently show a divided public: for example, a 2023 Israel Democracy Institute poll found 40% of Jewish Israelis support settlement expansion, 35% oppose, and the rest are neutral or unsure. Unsurprisingly, support is strongest among the religious and nationalist right—the very parties in Netanyahu’s government. That’s not “almost all Jews hate them”; it’s a society deeply split.

Because they’re the source of so much friction with the Palestinians.

Settler behavior is a major driver of friction, yes. But the real issue is systemic: for decades, Israeli governments have not only tolerated but actively enabled settlement expansion. This doesn’t excuse violence on either side—but it means the problem isn’t just a few “bad apples.” It’s a state-backed project that undermines any chance of a Palestinian state.

But it's not like the Palestinians on the west bank doesn't retaliate. Which is why the IDF is forced to get involved. They'd rather not. Because there's a war on elsewhere

The IDF isn’t reluctantly dragged in—it’s ordered in. Those orders come from a government whose stated policy is to “thwart a Palestinian state” (Netanyahu’s own words in the Times of Israel link). The IDF is not a monolith; like Israeli society itself, it reflects a range of political views. But as an institution, it carries out government directives. Under this government, those directives overwhelmingly support settlement expansion and suppression of Palestinian resistance. That’s not a temporary diversion from “the real war”—it’s part of a long-term strategy.

 

[Toni]

The issue is not about objecting to certain actions. The objection is with the automatic belief in anything Hamas claimed happened even if improbable, and the automatic rejection of anything Israel says, even when it's what should be expected to have happened.

I also reject Hanas’s assertions and I do not automatically disbelieve Israel. I’m very firmly on the side of Israel having the right to exist and that no one should be targeted for their religious beliefs or to score political points.

Then how about considering that some of the horrors you blame on Israel were really Hamas.

I believe that both sides are guilty of horrendous acts of violence targeting citizens specifically. There is so much guilt on both sides that frankly they should be under a forced cease fire in perpetuity.

Who could enforce it? We've seen what happened when the UN "tried" in Lebanon. (Quotes because from day 1 they have been trashcanning all reports.)

You’ve entirely misunderstood anything I’ve written.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Welcome to the Dr. Zoidberg tilt-a-whirl, where posts swing quickly back and forth between 'I feel for the Gazans, they are the victims of Hamas in this' and 'The Gazans are complicit with the crimes committed by Hamas against Israel'. Please make certain you are firmly strapped in, because this ride will jerk you all over more than riding an angry bull.

Not incompatible.

The Gazans are victims--of the oppressors that would use them as cannon fodder in the war against EastAsia. But because of a lifetime of manipulation they support those oppressors. Think of it like a cult.

All religions are cults. Also, is there no space between taking issue with Israel and its policies on Gaza (whether a biased concern or legitimate concerns) and supporting the barbaric slaughter of well over one thousand civilians?

 

[ZiprHead]

More collective punishment apologia.

You still haven't established the "punishment" part.

The Gazan population is no more or less responsible for the acts of their leaders than any other nation.

That is an utterly ridiculous statement. Is the population in N Korea resposible for their government?

We tried to avoid killing any more of the civilians in the Axis powers than we needed to but nobody was saying we can't go after Hitler because not every German elected him.

The city of Dresden would like to have a word with you.

You take it as self-evident the Jews are in the wrong and provide no proof, nor give fair consideration to evidence that you're wrong. Why should we see the-Jew-is-always-wrong as any different than the Jim Crow the-black-is-always-wrong? See why Z keeps using the term "antisemitism"?? I disagree with him on this, I think it's just the result of manipulation rather than true antisemitism, but it sure waddles and quacks.

There has been plenty of proof provided in this thread. You just reject it due to ideological reasons.

 

[Elixir]

UN's own data, 10% of what the UN actually brings into Gaza reaches it's intended destination.

The same sources say that it is mostly “diverted” to civilians and only a tiny percentage is intercepted by Hamas.
This is a manufactured “problem” perpetuated to justify prolonging the genocide. If sufficient aid was being delivered, there would not be crowds of starving civilians “diverting” food to stay alive.

 

[ZiprHead]

I'm going to keep taking a stand against racism in this thread. The moment this site actively defends and protects racists, I'm out of here. Then I should be banned, because this site won't be for me.

I'm going to keep calling out antisemitism in this thread.

I believe it's far more a matter of being manipulated than true hate. It's much easier to paint a lie than to rebut it, so it's inevitable that most lies go unrebutted. To see truth you have to back up and pay attention to which side has a track record of being proven right or proven wrong. And to accept that Israel is right is to accept that there is a horror that's being shoved in our faces about which there's nothing to be done. People routinely fall for the but-we-have-to-do-something arguments--never mind that what is proposed is almost never the right answer.

Irony is dead.

 

[ZiprHead]

In the Arab/Muslim rhetoric Islam owns the middle east. Christians and Jews are tolerated as long as they accept being second class citizens.

Same as uppity blacks in Jim Crow. Same as a woman escaping her abuser. Things turn much more violent when someone tries to throw off their chains. And the Jews not only threw off their chains, but did so in land Islam considered conquered.

More irony.

 

[ZiprHead]

I have long said about aid being used for control. Somebody got around to actually studying it--even worse than I was aware of.

Aiding Who? Humanitarian Aid and the Continuation of War by Other Means

<p><strong>What must be done to aid civilians without simultaneously bankrolling those who harm them?</strong><br> We tackle this question through a comparati

papers.ssrn.com

The aid organizations know it's being diverted, they consider it normal. The 90% diversion in Gaza is not unusual.

Was there a reason this was the start of a new thread?

Yes, because the problem is universal. That paper is full of cases where the aid mostly or even entirely goes to the power blocks. I'm saying the 90% we see in Gaza is not an aberration from the norm.

Inspired by this thread.