How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[barbos]

I asked you to show evidence, not repeat bullshit.

I provided the evidence.
I provided evidence million times. NATO is forcing countries to attack Russia. Georgians said as much.
And it does not even matter. Ukrainians can all 100% vote to join NATO it would not matter a one bit.
NATO is an aggressive terrorist organization and Russia can not allow it to operate in Ukraine, period.
It's existential problem for Russia, and if murdering ukrainians is the solution to this problem so be it.

When has NATO ever taken territory anywhere? People who are scared of you have joined it for safety, that's all.

When they said that Ukraine will be in NATO without even asking Ukraine.

And you're "right" that Ukraine in NATO is an existential problem for Russia--because you made it so.

You made it so by expanding and occupying countries around Russia,

You lose in Ukraine, other provinces will realize they can leave without being destroyed.

We have absolutely no reason to attack you.

And yet you do. And yes, you have plenty of reason to attack us. And that reason is China.
You attacked us hoping to regime change Russia into a puppet like current Ukraine.

The Ukraine war has made that abundantly clear--you simply do not have the firepower to challenge us.

No so. Despite what your nazi propaganda says, This war has shown that you can not challenge us.

So far you are pretty much at a standstill while facing a small fraction of our short range firepower.

Nope. Russia is using tiny fraction of our capabilities against whole NATO and winning.

 

[DrZoidberg]

And finally... the west side in the Ukraine conflict also makes up lies in order to justify our actions. Ukraine is a dysfunctional shit show of a nation dominated by gangsters and corrupt as hell. The leader of such a nation, Zelenskyy... obviously has a closet full of skelletons. But he's somehow always shown wearing a gloria.

I now have quite a lot of friends who have been in Ukraine as volonteers or soldiers. They all tell the same stories of absurd corruption and dysfunctionality on the Ukrainian side. We're also deluded about what kind of war this is. We've gilded the Ukrainian turd way more than what it deserves. Backing Ukraine is a huge gamble. There's no guarantee that a winning Zelenskyy won't turn Ukraine into a new Russia Putinstan.

I have heard multiple Ukrainian who said that Ukraine used to be a corrupt mess but they cleaned themselves up after the 2014 invasion.

Sure. But its still bad. Its important to acknowledge that the source of the corrupt culture is Russia. So getting Ukraine away from Russian power will improve matters.

But they have found natural gas in Ukraine. When that starts being extracted Ukraine might turn into yet another country where power stems from controlling that single resource = corruption

There's no guarantee a free Ukraine won't turn to shit again

 

[barbos]

Sure. But its still bad.

No still, it's exactly the same. And right now, current regime is stealing like there is no tomorrow.

Its important to acknowledge that the source of the corrupt culture is Russia

Well, considering that Ukraine IS Russia.
Having said that, ukrainians historically were more corrupt than russians. I mean it's a common knowledge and source of countless jokes.

 

[aupmanyav]

On a number of threads you try to make India relevant, I get that.

US also is not very relevant for us. Sanctions affect just about 1% of our GDP. We do not buy much oil or military equipment from US. US too needs our personnel in medicine, computers, teaching, etc. Sanctions have energized us to look for opportunities elsewhere. We thank US for that. However, the two governments are negotiating. Let us see if something good comes out of that.

 

[aupmanyav]

And you're "right" that Ukraine in NATO is an existential problem for Russia--because you made it so. You lose in Ukraine, other provinces will realize they can leave without being destroyed.

Which provinces are you thinking about?

 

[barbos]

Speaking of slight or not cultural differences between Russians, Ukrainians and .... Jews.
An ukrainian jew once told me the this anecdote.
A guy dies and gets to hell. And hell "attendants" give him a tour of hell's operation.
They pass the first cauldron where people are being boiled in oil. People are actively trying to jump out and these who jumped out trying to help others to get out, lots of devils around cauldron guarding and pushing people back into the cauldron.
The guy asks who are they? Hell attendant says these are jews.
They pass the next cauldron where people are being boiled in oil. People are also jumping out and but don't help the ones who are still in the cauldron, so there is less work for devils and there're fewer of them guarding.
Hell attendant says these are russians.
They go to the next cauldron, people sitting in the cauldron and nobody is guarding it. These who try to escape are being pulled back by the ones remaining there.
Hell attendant says these are ukrainians

 

[bilby]

Yikes, how self-deluded is this?!! Barbos accuses Nato of being imperialist, despite the fact that Nato has not taken a square inch of Russia!

Patently false. NATO took Ukraine which is Russia.

Patently false. Just because Russia owned it at one point doesn't make it part of Russia.

And NATO hasn't "taken it" anyway. Most of it is in Ukrainian control, and the rest is occupied by Russian invaders.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I have quite a few friends now who have been volonteers in Ukraine in a variety of functions. They all have the same story. The cynicism with which the soldiers and population have towards their own leads is pretty extreme, by western standards. The corruption is so egregrious it's like a comedy. To be fair, which is normal in war. But even to people with low standards, Ukraine is extreme.

I have a bunch of bizarre stories now. At the front it's of course less corrupt. Because any such behaviour can lead to immediate death. It's behind the lines it's extremely bad.

I expect that Russia is worse, ie the mother of all corruption. But Ukraine is no western country.. by any stretch.

 

[bilby]

The nuclear threat is Putin holding a gun to his own head.

Fanatics who are genuinely prepared to die, as long as they take a lot of others with them, are rare; The 9/11 hijackers are the exception that proves the rule. Putin is not a religious fanatic in that mould - he doesn't anticipate paradise for his martyrdom.

He won't use his nukes, even if he has any that still work, because he knows that a few minutes after he does, he, his family, his friends (if any), his armies, and their immediate environs, will be rapidly expanding clouds of radioactive gas and dust.

At least, I hope he knows that. And that the world's other nuclear powers remind him of it at every opportunity.

Disagree. He will not use a nuke against a nuclear power. He probably won't use a nuke against a western power. That doesn't mean he wouldn't use a nuke against Ukraine, though.

I am pretty sure that he is on notice from at least three of the other nuclear powers that such an action would not be tolerated.

Certainly the only way to maintain deterrence is to make clear that first use against any state, nuclear armed or not, will provoke a retailiatory strike.

During the Cuban Misslie Crisis, JFK said “It shall be the policy of this nation to regard any nuclear missile launched from Cuba against any nation in the Western Hemisphere as an attack by the Soviet Union on the United States, requiring a full retaliatory response upon the Soviet Union”

The only way to prevent first use by anyone, is for at least one of the other nuclear powers to state, unequivocally and believably, that all such use, against anyone, demands a retaliatory response against the leadership and remaining nuclear arsenal of the nation responsible.

 

[bilby]

We are winning and we are going to win.

 

[barbos]

We are winning and we are going to win.

View attachment 52328

You look good in the uniform

 

[DrZoidberg]

So calm

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Russia never had hatred of USA or the West. It's you and your propaganda which has always hated Russia and portrayed us as bad guys, when in reality it is your shitty neocon and imperialist governments who are the bad guys.
You are one ridiculously ignorant brainwashed man.

Your actions of putting the Iron Curtain across Europe were extremely distasteful to us.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Can't you just say what his "red line" is? I'm not going to watch any Russian propaganda video. Are you sure that Putin is really in charge? When he met with Trump, he agreed to peace proposal which allowed western peacekeepers in Ukraine. After he returned home, someone nixed this. Who is really in charge?

His marker ran out of ink long ago.

 

[Toni]

Russia wants war or ‘war’ as a distraction fir how badly Putin is failing his country.

Plus they’d like a sea access….

Disagree. Russia wants all those minerals. They thought it would be easy.

You are remarkably deluded. First of all, Ukraine does not have much of anythyng, and most of that not much is in Russain controlled territory already.

And now Russia can't afford to lose because that would show their army to be a paper tiger and likely cause other provinces to rebel. Ukraine is Alderaan.

Nobody is going to rebel and Russia is not a paper tiger, you are (Afghanistan).
However, Putin personally can not leave Ukraine because it would be "What the fuck?"
We are winning and we are going to win.

If Ukraine has so little to offer, Russia should just withdraw and stop killing people. Fewer Russians will die as a benefit to Russia and it will be less expensive.

How did Afghanistan work out for Russia? Ukraine is the same in that respect.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Russia can never be trusted.

You contradict yourself. You explain why Ukraine can never be trusted and then conclude that it is Russia who can never be trusted. You are not making any sense.

What did he say that in any way implied that Ukraine can not be trusted?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Like Hitler and Tojo in WWII in the long run Russia can not compete with the industrial capacity of its opponents.

According to your own data, Russia makes 4 times more ammunition than EU/US combined.

The issue was your total economy, not just your military production.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Putin had high hopes when Trump came into office that favor would turn toward Russia. Trump did not turn as Putin would have expected or wanted. Then it all came to an end at the Alaska meeting. Putin didn't give and inch and Trump has nothing to brag about. I really don't think Putin understands his position on the world stage. Trump did what Trump wanted. He has that luxury. He didn't need to give Putin anything. He forced the EU to step up and he stopped funding Ukraine directly. Putin not wanting to give anything has only the option of continuing the meat war. It's obvious he hasn't enough intel on Ukraine to hit anything other than known civilian infrastructure while the US can and if I'm to believe Reuters/AP, does give Ukraine plenty of intel to make their strikes meaningful. While I am loath to do so, I've got to give Trump some credit here. While he is far from doing what I'd like to see a president do, he could have done much worse. Trump's actions and Putin's pride, delusions, and hubris continue to mold a stronger NATO and unite the EU in general into a force for Russia to worry about more with each passing year.
Russia's civilian economy is stagnant. It's war production is at full tilt now with all the Soviet era arms exhausted. Further, I'm reading that the Russian government is delving ever deeper into seizing personal assets of Russia's wealthy, a process that takes all of two weeks to make it through the court system. Also keep in mind Russia's interest rates are some of the highest in the world. As high as 21% late last year, they are still at 17%. My point? Any disruption, even Ukraine's strikes at energy infrastructure, quickly repaired or not has an outsized affect on a country operating under such conditions.
So Putin tries to inflict his break their morale strategy that he uses on Ukraine to divide Europe with drone/aircraft incursions and acts of sabotage. This will just make Europe better prepared because Putin or no Putin, three things can be assured of: death, taxes, and dickery by Russia.

 

[Elixir]

Trump did what Trump wanted. He has that luxury.

It's about time. He probably communicated to his old pal, that the ol' pee tapes ain't what they used to be. America already knows he's a multiple fraudster, rapist, serial liar, and is "in the files". The pee tapes are probably grainy old boring stuff now, and have outlived their usefulness to Pootey. In fact there's really no way to sully Trump's reputation, period.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

According to your own data, Russia makes 4 times more ammunition than EU/US combined.

Ammunition is pretty useless if you can't get it to the front because your railways have been bombed and your trucks are out of fuel due to drone strikes on your refineries and pipelines.

Russia is fucked.

Well, According to your data Russia uses 10 times more shells than your nazis. In fact your nazi scum talks about drones only.
Don't know what happened to your famous M777.

Lots of shells fired from worn-out barrels that can't hit the broad side of a barn.

And have you guys ever figured out how to counter-battery dispersed guns?