Are we now in full blown fascist totalitarianism?

[TomC]

So when did he go to jail for rape? If he was convicted then that's what would have happened, right?

Please stay on the topic. You seem to struggle with staying on the topic of rape

Once again, you misunderstand the USA.
Trump has piles of money and millions of supporters. People like him get away with all kinds of things.

He stole boxes of top secret documents. Most of us would have quickly been convicted of treason. He's never even been tried! Because his supporters got his pet judge assigned, Aileen Cannon. She just threw up her hands and said, "This is too hard!". And it all went away.
Tom

 

[RVonse]

Has he done that?

You mean enact Executive Orders to get corporations, law firms, colleges/universities to pull back on inclusion programs? Yes, he did that.

That was your perfect example of Trump being anti racist.

Inclusive programs are extremely racist because their focus is purly on race on not performance. But it is the programs based purely on meritocracy and performance that are color blind and non racist.

 

[bilby]

Has he done that?

You mean enact Executive Orders to get corporations, law firms, colleges/universities to pull back on inclusion programs? Yes, he did that.

That was your perfect example of Trump being anti racist.

Inclusive programs are extremely racist because their focus is purly on race on not performance. But it is the programs based purely on meritocracy and performance that are color blind and non racist.

The problem being that in a fundamentally racist society*, such as that of the United States, there are no programs "based purely on meritocracy and performance"; Just programs based on the attititudes and biases of employers and managers.

The "Inclusive programs" you deride are necessary to prevent that underlying racism from coming to the fore, and most of those clamouring for their removal (including the current President) have racist motives for doing so. (The rest are "useful idiots").








* And I use the word 'fundamentally' in both senses; The USA (like South Africa and Australia) was founded on racist ideas and actions; And racism continues to be a driver of much decision making at every level in these nations.

 

[RVonse]

Now you're changing the subject. He's a sexual predator. You'll have no argument from me on that. But calling him a rapist is hyperbole.

My problem is with the hyperbole. Everyone you don't like isn't Hitler. I don't like Trump either. But he's done plenty of actually questionable stuff. There's no need to exagerate or make stuff up.

I'm not changing the fucking subject. That is what the court concluded he had done. Say it in plain English. Do you or you not consider it a "serious crime" to jam your fingers or an object into a woman's vagina without her consent or not? Why is it hard for you come to a moral conclusion about this? It should be a very simple answer.

Rape apologists are scum.

Im not Dr.Zoidberg but to me he is absolutely correct on the hyperbole with the terms directed at Trump. And all this does is cause confusion and even more discourse than necessary. It certainly does not change hearts and minds on the other side in the least. Why the need to call Trump rapist when he has never even been indicted on that charge? And yes there is a serious difference between being called a sexual predator and a rapist.

Everyone calls Jan 6 "an insurrection" when that event obviously wasn't even remotely close to that. Everyone on the left calls it an insurrection yet no one had guns except for the police. If this was an insurrection how come no one was indicted or found guilty of insurrection? Yet another example of abrasive and caustic language the left chooses to use to further inflame people who should be on the same side of freedom and liberty.

The left shoots themselves in the foot more than Barney Fife with all their ridiculous hyperbole.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Everyone on the left calls it an insurrection yet no one had guns except for the police.

Are guns required for it to be an insurrection? And is it strictly true that no one but the police had firearms? You sure about that?

 

[ideologyhunter]

It was a brain-dead insurrection, but then again, this is MAGA. They wanted to stop the government from carrying out the certification of Biden's win. They broke in the windows and smashed in the doors of our Capitol. They assaulted police with boards, flag poles, and chemical sprays. They forced the legislators to flee. Yes, that is an insurrection. For fuck's sake -- even the GOP leaders condemned Trump (for a couple of days.)
Some of the mob went looking for "enemy" politicians to assault. They were allowed to hold the building for three goddamned hours while their leader watched their crimes on TV.
Now, of course, MAGA wipes away every bit of the events that happened. The leader is back, showing his true colors, and getting small amounts of pushback and lots of warm cuddles from SCOTUS.
We are a failed state. America has lost its way. Unimaginable events are happening that no one could have dreamed of ten years ago. Armed forces deployed into our cities -- foreign states making concentration camp-level prisons for us. The President has declared that negative reporting (by definition, negative about him) is illegal. He bleats out the names of people he wants indicted, and his "DOJ" goes after them. It has gotten this bad in the span of half a year, but it's obviously going to get darker, and more of the Constitution is going to get trashed.

 

[RVonse]

It was a brain-dead insurrection, but then again, this is MAGA. They wanted to stop the government from carrying out the certification of Biden's win. They broke in the windows and smashed in the doors of our Capitol. They assaulted police with boards, flag poles, and chemical sprays. They forced the legislators to flee. Yes, that is an insurrection. For fuck's sake -- even the GOP leaders condemned Trump (for a couple of days.)
Some of the mob went looking for "enemy" politicians to assault. They were allowed to hold the building for three goddamned hours while their leader watched their crimes on TV.
Now, of course, MAGA wipes away every bit of the events that happened. The leader is back, showing his true colors, and getting small amounts of pushback and lots of warm cuddles from SCOTUS.
We are a failed state. America has lost its way. Unimaginable events are happening that no one could have dreamed of ten years ago. Armed forces deployed into our cities -- foreign states making concentration camp-level prisons for us. The President has declared that negative reporting (by definition, negative about him) is illegal. He bleats out the names of people he wants indicted, and his "DOJ" goes after them. It has gotten this bad in the span of half a year, but it's obviously going to get darker, and more of the Constitution is going to get trashed.

Who got charged with insurrection? Less alone convicted with insurrection.

You are going to tell us with a straight face that the heavily biased and politically motivated Biden DOJ (who wanted to put everyone they could away forever).....didn't have enough evidence to even charge someone with insurrection???

This was only an insurrection because it played well on tv. And you have been sucking this lie so long your mind has begun to believe it.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Everyone on the left calls it an insurrection yet no one had guns except for the police.

*ahem* Wrong. Some people had guns. Some people also had other weapons, like tasers and knives. Some people had zip ties. Some people even ran around like lunatics with a noose.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Who got charged with insurrection? Less alone convicted with insurrection.

I think the charge is seditious conspiracy. Several people were both charged and convicted.

Where are you getting your news?

 

[RVonse]

Everyone on the left calls it an insurrection yet no one had guns except for the police.

*ahem* Wrong. Some people had guns. Some people also had other weapons, like tasers and knives. Some people had zip ties. Some people even ran around like lunatics with a noose.

They very well got charged with having weapons maybe. Happens all the time in a big city somewhere in the US. But show me one person who got charged with insurrection.

 

[RVonse]

Who got charged with insurrection? Less alone convicted with insurrection.

I think the charge is seditious conspiracy. Several people were both charged and convicted.

Where are you getting your news?

That is not insurrection nor does it carry a penalty even approaching insurrection.

Like DrZoid says the left uses too much hyperbole. And IMO shoots themselves in the foot with it.

 

[laughing dog]

Who got charged with insurrection? Less alone convicted with insurrection.

I think the charge is seditious conspiracy. Several people were both charged and convicted.

Where are you getting your news?

That is not insurrection nor does it carry a penalty even approaching insurrection.

It can carry up to 20 years in prison, while insurrection is up to 10 years in prison and ineligiblity to hold federal office.

I leave it up to readers to determine the relative harshness.

BTW, not being charged with a crime does not mean someone did not commit the crime.

The Jan. 6 rioters were trying to overthrow the outcome of the Presidential election. Whether one calls that at insurrection or a vacation , they were violent and clearly intended to do harm to some elected officials at the behest of actual President of the US - someone who refused to call in the National Guard to protect the Capitol, let alone members of Congress.

It is as stain on our history. On that day. Trump and those rioters disgraced our country.

 

[ideologyhunter]

It was a brain-dead insurrection, but then again, this is MAGA. They wanted to stop the government from carrying out the certification of Biden's win. They broke in the windows and smashed in the doors of our Capitol. They assaulted police with boards, flag poles, and chemical sprays. They forced the legislators to flee. Yes, that is an insurrection. For fuck's sake -- even the GOP leaders condemned Trump (for a couple of days.)
Some of the mob went looking for "enemy" politicians to assault. They were allowed to hold the building for three goddamned hours while their leader watched their crimes on TV.
Now, of course, MAGA wipes away every bit of the events that happened. The leader is back, showing his true colors, and getting small amounts of pushback and lots of warm cuddles from SCOTUS.
We are a failed state. America has lost its way. Unimaginable events are happening that no one could have dreamed of ten years ago. Armed forces deployed into our cities -- foreign states making concentration camp-level prisons for us. The President has declared that negative reporting (by definition, negative about him) is illegal. He bleats out the names of people he wants indicted, and his "DOJ" goes after them. It has gotten this bad in the span of half a year, but it's obviously going to get darker, and more of the Constitution is going to get trashed.

Who got charged with insurrection? Less alone convicted with insurrection.

You are going to tell us with a straight face that the heavily biased and politically motivated Biden DOJ (who wanted to put everyone they could away forever).....didn't have enough evidence to even charge someone with insurrection???

This was only an insurrection because it played well on tv. And you have been sucking this lie so long your mind has begun to believe it.

Total horseshit. As Trump likes to say, You really drank the KoolAid.
Random House Webster's College Dictionary:
insurrection an act or instance of rising in arms or open rebellion against an established government or authority.
The Jan. 6 assholes and their idol richly embodied that definition. The GOP now brazenly calls what they did "legitimate political discourse." Totally shameful.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Everyone on the left calls it an insurrection yet no one had guns except for the police.

*ahem* Wrong. Some people had guns. Some people also had other weapons, like tasers and knives. Some people had zip ties. Some people even ran around like lunatics with a noose.

They very well got charged with having weapons maybe.

Yes, so you were wrong.

Happens all the time in a big city somewhere in the US.

People do not generally walk around with nooses, frothing at the mouth, chanting to hang Mike Pence or run around with zip ties screaming "where's Nancy Pelosi," even in big cities? People also do not plan to overthrow the government in big cities with firearms generally.

But show me one person who got charged with insurrection.

Four members of the Oath Keepers were sentenced this week on seditious conspiracy and other charges for crimes related to the breach of the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021. Their actions and the actions of others disrupted a joint session of the U.S. Congress that was in the process of ascertaining and counting the electoral votes related to the presidential election.

Roberto Minuta, 39, of Prosper, Texas, was sentenced June 1 to 54 months in prison followed by 36 months of supervised release.

Edward Vallejo, 64, of Phoenix, Arizona, was sentenced on June 1 to 36 months in prison followed by 36 months of supervised release, including the first 12 months to be served on home confinement.

David Moerschel, 45, of Punta Gorda, Florida, was sentenced on June 2 to 36 months in prison followed by 36 months of supervised release.

Joseph Hackett, 53, of Sarasota, Florida, was sentenced on June 2 to 42 months in prison followed by 36 months of supervised release.

The four defendants were found guilty of seditious conspiracy, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, obstruction of an official proceeding and conspiracy to prevent Members of Congress from discharging their official duties on Jan. 23, following a seven-week trial. Hackett was also found guilty of destruction of evidence.

According to the evidence, in the months leading up to Jan. 6, the defendants and their co-conspirators plotted to oppose by force the lawful transfer of presidential power, including by amassing an armed “quick reaction force” on the outskirts of the District of Columbia. Beginning in late December 2020, via encrypted and private communications applications, the defendants and various co-conspirators coordinated and planned to travel to Washington, D.C., on or around Jan. 6, 2021, the date of the certification of the electoral college vote. The defendants made plans to bring weapons to the area to support the operation. The co-conspirators then traveled across the country to the Washington, D.C., metropolitan area in early January 2021, with paramilitary gear and supplies including firearms, tactical vests with plates, helmets, and radio equipment.

Four Additional Oath Keepers Sentenced for Seditious Conspiracy Related to U.S. Capitol Breach

Four members of the Oath Keepers were sentenced this week on seditious conspiracy and other charges for crimes related to the breach of the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021.

www.justice.gov

A jury in the District of Columbia today returned guilty verdicts on multiple felonies against five members of the Proud Boys, finding four of the defendants guilty of seditious conspiracy for their actions before and during the breach of the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021.

According to the evidence at trial, in the months leading up to Jan. 6, the defendants plotted to oppose by force the lawful transfer of presidential power, and to prevent the Members of Congress, and the federal law enforcement officers who protect them, from discharging their duties.

Henry “Enrique” Tarrio, 39, of Miami, the former national chairman of the Proud Boys; Ethan Nordean, 32, of Auburn, Washington; Joseph Biggs, 39, of Ormond Beach, Florida; Zachary Rehl, 37, of Philadelphia, were found guilty of seditious conspiracy and conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding. The four defendants and co-defendant Dominic Pezzola, 45, of Rochester, New York, were also found guilty of obstruction of an official proceeding, conspiracy to prevent Members of Congress and federal law enforcement officers from discharging their duties, civil disorder, and destruction of government property. Pezzola was also found guilty of assaulting, resisting, or impeding certain officers and robbery involving government property.

Jury Convicts Four Leaders of the Proud Boys of Seditious Conspiracy Related to U.S. Capitol Breach

A jury in the District of Columbia today returned guilty verdicts on multiple felonies against five members of the Proud Boys, finding four of the defendants guilty of seditious conspiracy for their actions before and during the breach of the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021.

www.justice.gov

Elmer Stewart Rhodes III, 58, of Granbury, Texas, the founder and leader of the Oath Keepers, and Kelly Meggs, 54, of Dunnellon, Florida, the leader of the Florida chapter of the organization, were sentenced today for seditious conspiracy and other charges related to the breach of the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021. Their actions disrupted a joint session of the U.S. Congress that was in the process of ascertaining and counting the electoral votes related to the presidential election.

Rhodes was sentenced to 18 years in prison followed by three years of supervised release. His is the longest sentence, to date, related to the assault on law enforcement and the U.S. Capitol Building.

Meggs was sentenced to 12 years in prison followed by three years of supervised release.

“Today’s sentences reflect the grave threat the actions of these defendants posed to our democratic institutions,” said Attorney General Merrick B. Garland. “The United States proved at trial that the Oath Keepers plotted for months to violently disrupt the peaceful transfer of power from one administration to the next. The Justice Department will continue to do everything in our power to hold accountable those criminally responsible for the January 6th attack on our democracy.”

Court Sentences Two Oath Keepers Leaders on Seditious Conspiracy and Other Charges Related to U.S. Capitol Breach

Elmer Stewart Rhodes III, 58, of Granbury, Texas, the founder and leader of the Oath Keepers, and Kelly Meggs, 54, of Dunnellon, Florida, the leader of the Florida chapter of the organization, were sentenced today for seditious conspiracy and other charges related to the breach of the U.S...

www.justice.gov

 

[ZiprHead]

Everyone calls Jan 6 "an insurrection" when that event obviously wasn't even remotely close to that. Everyone on the left calls it an insurrection yet no one had guns except for the police.

There were many civilians there that had guns. So many that Trump demanded the magnetometers be not used to screen people at the entrances to the rally before the attack on the capital, saying "They are not here to kill me."

Fact Check: US Capitol attack rioters had weapons, including firearms

Witness testimony and evidence in legal cases against supporters of President Donald Trump who stormed the U.S. Capitol in January 2021 show that some of the rioters had weapons, contrary to social media posts saying the attack could not be called an “insurrection” because none of the...

www.reuters.com

However, court records show, opens new tab at least five cases where carrying or possessing a firearm was part of the indictment. A summary, opens new tab of the cases by the Justice Department as of Jan. 3 said 180 defendants were charged with entering a restricted area with a dangerous or deadly weapon, which includes firearms and other types of weapons.

WEAPONS PRESENT​

Firearms, tasers and knives were some of the types of weapons used and carried on or around Capitol grounds by rioters, according to the U.S. Attorney’s Office of the District of Columbia, which published the status of prosecutions, opens new tab related to the Capitol attack as of Jan. 3, 2025 on its website.
For example, police found a loaded handgun on Christopher Alberts, who was dressed in body armor and carried a gas mask, Reuters reported.
A corresponding indictment, opens new tab for Alberts on the “Capitol Breach Cases, opens new tab” page of the USAO-DC website states that he had carried a semi-automatic handgun on Capitol grounds.

Reuters also reported that the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration had suspended an agent, Mark Ibrahim, who was off duty but carrying his service weapon outside the Capitol during the attack, according to his lawyer.
A criminal complaint, opens new tab for Ibrahim includes as evidence a photograph that allegedly shows him near the steps of the Senate and displaying his DEA firearm and badge (page 11).
A search for the word “firearms” on the Capitol Breach Cases page with the list of defendants returns five results, including for Alberts and Ibrahim, while the word “weapon” returns, opens new tab 79 results (one case could include multiple defendants).

During the 2022 congressional hearings on the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol, Cassidy Hutchinson, a top aide to Trump’s chief of staff at the time, Mark Meadows, also contradicted the claim that rioters were not armed.

Hutchinson testified that both Meadows and Trump knew about people who had attended Trump’s rally at the Ellipse and later marched to the Capitol armed with AR-15 rifles, handguns, brass knuckles and batons, Reuters reported.

VERDICT​

Misleading. Multiple defendants have been criminally charged for being in possession of weapons, including firearms, during the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol.

 

[Swammerdami]

The topic is what he did. Why are you having so much trouble saying that sexual assault is a serious crime?

There's no need to adjudicate the relationship between rape and sexual assault. Judge Kaplan spelled out VERY clearly that Trump was guilty of RAPE when he ruled for the plaintiff in Case 1:22-cv-10016-LAK.

I've tried large fonts, and red bold text. Will a small font work better?

Judge Lewis Kaplan ruled against Trump in Case 1:22-cv-10016-LAK. His legal opinion of Trump's misdeed couldn't be clearer than his comment that "As is obvious, the central issue in both Carroll I and Carroll II is exactly the same– whether Mr. Trump raped Ms. Carroll."

Dr. Z seems to think nobody is a "rapist" unless they serve time in prison for a specific crime named "rape." I trotted out reductio ad absurdem and asked the doctor whether Al Capone (who murdered 200+) was a "murderer." Dr. Z then replied with the peculiar non sequitur that Al Capone "is the president." (Yes, I understand this confusion resulted simply by Dr. Z's stupidity in not erasing the question he was too ashamed to answer.)

 

[Jarhyn]

The topic is what he did. Why are you having so much trouble saying that sexual assault is a serious crime?

There's no need to adjudicate the relationship between rape and sexual assault. Judge Kaplan spelled out VERY clearly that Trump was guilty of RAPE when he ruled for the plaintiff in Case 1:22-cv-10016-LAK.

I've tried large fonts, and red bold text. Will a small font work better?

Judge Lewis Kaplan ruled against Trump in Case 1:22-cv-10016-LAK. His legal opinion of Trump's misdeed couldn't be clearer than his comment that "As is obvious, the central issue in both Carroll I and Carroll II is exactly the same– whether Mr. Trump raped Ms. Carroll."

Dr. Z seems to think nobody is a "rapist" unless they serve time in prison for a specific crime named "rape." I trotted out reductio ad absurdem and asked the doctor whether Al Capone (who murdered 200+) was a "murderer." Dr. Z then replied with the peculiar non sequitur that Al Capone "is the president." (Yes, I understand this confusion resulted simply by Dr. Z's stupidity in not erasing the question he was too ashamed to answer.)

Like, there are still jurisdictions where rape legally requires penetration of a vagina by a penis.

Does that mean I those jurisdictions Dr Z can't be raped?

 

[DrZoidberg]

He's not passed any racist laws. Or tried to.

Yeah, that would be because US Presidents don't pass laws. Passing laws is the job of the legislature, not the executive.

If the legislature matters at all, then USA is not a fascist state. A fascist state has no red tape. If the führer wills it, it happens.

Yes, the abuse of executive orders is a bad development. Reminiscent of how the Roman Republic fell apart. This is the kind of stuff the Gracci brothers were doing. They were doing it for a good cause. But once it was made into a habit, tribunes after them started using it habitually. Causing social instability, and then Caesar. So we have a terrible precedent for this. The solutation is for someone to amend the constitution and plug this hole.

He has however rolled back measures to limit the impacts of racism, to the extent possible via executive orders, some of which are clearly unconstitutional.

Meh. You're seing this through your ideological filter. It can be argued that affirmative action is racist. It can be argued that gender quotas is sexist.

Liberals in USA have a horrible habit of liking candidates, not on what they're saying, but because they're women or black. That's a terrible trend. It's also racist and sexist. If I understand Trump on this, he's against this. I am with Trump of this. We don't beat racism and sexism by affirmative action. We beat it just by ignoring it. But that's my ideological slant on this. I think affirmative action makes the problem worse.

I also think Trump is a racist. But I don't think his policies on race are racist. My impression is that he's capable of separating his personal views from his political agenda. Perhaps because it's such an inflamed topic in US politics, that he can't afford to speak his mind on it?

He has also ordered ICE to (unlawfully) arrest and deport people based on their race.

Yeah, but it's not a violation of the social contract. We have nation states. Nation states care about it's own citizens. To that nation state, they're a priviliged class. Those outside the nation state, not citizens don't have endless rights to stay in the country. That's the deal.

If you want to argue fascism, you will have to show some evidence that American citizens are rounded up and put in camps, and tortured if they don't support Trump. You will live in fear for expressing your opinion, even in private. If USA was fascist, you saying this in this forum is a personal risk. People who live in fascist states can't talk straight. They only communicate about the regime through metaphore. It's too dangerous otherwise. The way you talk about Trump suggests that you are not living in a fascist state.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The problem with calling Trump a fascist is that it relatvises actual fascism. It's the "cry wolf" problem. It's the same thing with calling his policies racist. It relativises actual racism. Has he put in place any laws that limits people based on race? If not, then his policies aren't racist. He can be a racist while his policies aren't racist. To the rape accusation. He hasn't been convicted of rape. So calling him a rapist relativises rape.

The problem with all of this is that it will make us blind to being taken over by actual racist rapist fascist.

You don't need to like Trump to insist that we call him what he actually is, a lying orange clown

Huh?

How is he not a fascist? He's rapidly turning our government into fascism.

This is like calling someone who was rude to you once for a narcisist.

Fascism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's just hyperbole. Yes, there's fascist traits. But he's right at the top of a slippery slope, that's not particularly slippery.

Not a racist? You realize some of his crowd have admitted they intend to purge the country of non-whites?

Where are the racist laws that he's passed?

Not a rapist? He's admitted to rape.

No, he hasn't. Don't relativise rape. It's a serious crime. Not cool.

Whereas sexual assault is not? What the fuck is your problem?

Answer the question: Do you think it is acceptable to sexually violate someone with your fingers or an object? And before this specific opportunity to defend the president came up, would you or would you not have considered it rape to do so?

Now you're changing the subject. He's a sexual predator. You'll have no argument from me on that. But calling him a rapist is hyperbole.

My problem is with the hyperbole. Everyone you don't like isn't Hitler. I don't like Trump either. But he's done plenty of actually questionable stuff. There's no need to exagerate or make stuff up.

I'm not changing the fucking subject. That is what the court concluded he had done. Say it in plain English. Do you or you not consider it a "serious crime" to jam your fingers or an object into a woman's vagina without her consent or not? Why is it hard for you come to a moral conclusion about this? It should be a very simple answer.

Rape apologists are scum.

I'm not on trial. And neither is Trump. If the court concluded he'd done it, then why wasn't he convicted?

 

[Politesse]

I'm not on trial. And neither is Trump.

A very revealing admission of your stake in all this.