Fat-shaming, fat acceptance, and 'body diversity'.

[Bronzeage]

But how do we minimize the mental health toll and the enormous economic cost (that provides little benefit when it comes to fad diets, for example) incurred by those who consider their body ugly and unattractive, whether rightly or wrongly?

You do agree that when people are constantly bombarded by images of the ideal body, some of which is fake (due to editing), they tend to feel less attractive/less beautiful, which, in a large number of cases, harms their mental health and where they are willing to shell out tens of billions every year because of it and may even develop mental illness? What is the best strategy to combat that? Rightly or wrongly, at least the feminists you talk about are trying to reduce the harm caused by people who feel ugly/unattractive by making them feel less so. The question is, are they being effective?

Don't forget that 'ideal' body type is very culture and era specific.

I once had an near ideal body, as prescribe by the culture of the specific era. If there was a practical solution to male pattern baldness, I might have made the top percentile. I was the hottest guy in cardiac intensive care. So, the health angle of a HWP body type might not be perfectly straight forward.

But then again, I survived blood pressure of 260/180 , so maybe my physique is what made the difference and actually saved my life. Who knows.

I wasn't the least bit concerned with my health, before May of 1993. I felt fine. My driving force was vanity. I wanted that ideal body and for a while, I had it. I didn't want to look like a grinning Mr. Universe contestant. I wanted 30-something women to find me attractive enough to give me the opportunity and time to show my better qualities. As a "get women to give me the time of day" program, it was a great success. As a "Keep Bronzeage alive and healthy into his old age" program, it had a few failings.

These days, I sleep with a woman every night, so the original incentives are not quite as strong. The "stay alive and healthy" incentives are a poor substitute.

This is the real problem. For all the talk about long term health and the debilitating effects of obesity, it's not enough to want to live long and healthy. During my Chippendale days, the smile and attention of a woman was much more satisfying than anything I could eat. These days, I like eating a little more than I once did. Maybe if I was suddenly a bachelor again(a scary thought, lock up your mothers), I would find new motivation. As it is, I'll have another Dr. appointment in April, where I will once again not have lost the 30 lbs I pledged to drop since the last visit.

There's a parallel topic to this thread, which comes up fairly often, which is teen sex. The only way to prevent teen sex is to deny them time and opportunity. Nothing else works, The drive and desire to have sex is so powerful, no logical argument based on religion or science can overcome it. Fortunately, this drive diminishes enough in a few years, so we can get some work done. One drive that never goes away is the desire to eat. Just as we are born with a sex drive, we are born with a hunger drive. It's our misfortune to be living when time and opportunity to eat is without practical limits. The problem isn't us, it's the planet. We have too much food, for too little effort. With all things human, there is a wide range in all of this. Bad things happen at the extreme edges of the range.

We are fighting our nature and nature always wins.

 

[ronburgundy]

Sorry, but this is the kind of "fat is a symptom of a deeper problem" bullshit I was talking about. What if what made him fat is that food is fucking delicious and that enjoying simple pleasures in life is what sane people do and its a kind of celebration of what it means to be human, including a celebration of human ability to create such amazing dishes? Should he let go of his valuing of life's simple pleasures in favor of the narcissistic obsession with how others perceive him that drives the majority of fitness nuts to the gym everyday? If anything, people who deny themselves food pleasures and spend everyday at the gym are more likely to have a misplaced values and psychological issues than overweight people.
Living for pleasure while not hurting others is as noble and well lived as a life gets, and it is not a "better" choice to hold off on certain pleasure now to invest it in the probability of more future pleasures. It's a gamble and a trade-off, and a matter of preference as to when and how one deposits or withdraws from their pleasure account.

Metaphor, of course you are not happy about being fat, but are you happy despite being fat? Do the behaviors that make you fat give you joy and pleasure? If so, then your fatness is not a psychological problem, but a byproduct of a healthy pleasure seeking mind in a modern world where pleasure giving foods are in near endless supply. Your fatness poses a pragmatic trade-off that you need to treat like investing for retirement. If you live for tomorrow, it may not ever come no matter what you do. But you can make sensible modest trade-offs that if/when the future comes it is more pleasurable.

But part of sanity is realizing that your body, if not maintained to at least some degree, has the ability to flip your switch off. Morbid obesity qualifies. To hell with vanity. Gym people suck. But we should all be concerned with our blood work. Comprehensive blood, to my knowledge, is the best and most accessible gauge of our health. Pleasure is fine but when pleasure morphs into obsession, pleasure is bad. Morbid obesity is a prime indicator that this morphing has occurred. Morbid obesity degrades quality of life, not a very pleasurable experience.

I thought I covered most of that. I am not arguing for completely ignoring real impacts of obesity on health, just for doing away with the religion of fitness and the bullshit notion that the fitter you are the happier you will be, along with the notion that obesity is a symptom of a mental disorder. It should be about recognizing what gives you and could give your pleasure and being sure to reap pleasure now while not robbing yourself of it in the future (understanding the uncertainty of the future, no matter what you plan for). IT is perfectly sane to increase your risk of some pleasurable consequences 30 years from now in exchange for a certain increase in your daily experiences today. Being in the claimed "normal" range should not be everyone's goal. Their goal should be to be happy and experience the most pleasure in life, which means now and every day at least as much as the later years that the medical profession is myopically concerned with. For many people, that will mean being overweight. By definition "morbidly obese" means serious major risk of unpleasant and deadly diseases. So, arguably that is outside the range for anyone in terms of the goal of optimizing overall pleasure and happiness.

What I have recommended is trying to change behaviors. To learn to love healthy food. To find pleasure in it.

I would argue that are severe limits to how much one can learn to love and find pleasure in foods. Our bodies evolved to love high caloric fats and sugars. Loving them leads to seeking them out, which led to survival. People eat those foods when available, because there is a natural and unlearned love of them that cannot be matched. Lower calorie healthier foods can be made tastier with lots of skill and work (Spices are key), but are still a drop off from a brisket sandwich.

I found over time that mushrooms and to some extent beans to be a fair psychological substitute for beef.

People differ vastly in how much pleasure they can get from food, which also means in the difference in pleasure they get from different foods. I have found that many vegetarians and other committed healthy eaters who eat bases on ideals rather than hedonism just don't care that much about food pleasure and never really did. IF you don't miss it, you didn't love it in the first place. By the same token, people differ in the pleasure they get from exercise. A lot of the difference in those who eat healthier and exercise more is not a difference in will power or self control, but a difference in how much will and control is required due to differences in the pleasure related to food and exercise. Again, I am not saying people shouldn't try to make healthier eating as pleasurable as they can, just that we shouldn't buy the notion that healthier eating among food lovers isn't a massive sacrifice of short-term pleasure. Oh, that reminds me, notice how the phrase "short-term" tends to carry a negative connotation in our culture? That's because of the obsession with longevity and living life for the future, which is bullshit and not the key to a life worth living.

A good (easy) starting point to changing behaviors is dairy, a source of saturated fat we can all live without, IMHO. Or just cheese.

If you feel that giving up dairy or even just cheese is "easy", then you do not get pleasure from food like I and most overweight people do. Great cheese can be a toe-curling, better than sex experience. You'll have to pry the Stilton from my cold, dead, stubby-fingered, diabetes-ridden hands

 

[Metaphor]

Things are being said in this thread that do not need to be said. This thread ain't about lettuce, ain't about dairy, and most importantly it ain't about y'all. it ain't about how lucky you are, how perfectly disciplined and healthy you are, how you will never have to worry about getting obese.

Now I know you all mean well but what you say isn't necessarily what people hear. And what is heard is the important thing. Telling someone how disciplined and wise you are can be heard by the people listening as how undisciplined and foolish they are. And that just make a body want wanna talk to our good friend Sara Lee.

A fellow poster needs help, not testimonials to our own greatness.

Let us help him.

So helping doesn't include using personal experience and how we have personally managed?

One thing I've noticed in the past in threads like this, a few people don't like to hear that other people are in shape because of work and sacrifice. They rather believe that people are "just lucky".

In my OP I mentioned I myself did not like to hear from other obese people some of the self-serving delusions they believe. However, those who never have been morbidly obese sometimes have their own self-serving righteous advice that does not help, either.

You don't get a 'gym body' without hard work. However, I do know several thin or normal weight people who have never made any 'sacrifice' to be that way. They never think about how much or what they eat: they just eat what they want. I know because I've asked them directly. Their experience is different to mine because they simply don't want as much as me, and they also like different food to me.

You can do what you will but you can't will what you will.

 

[gmbteach]

Things are being said in this thread that do not need to be said. This thread ain't about lettuce, ain't about dairy, and most importantly it ain't about y'all. it ain't about how lucky you are, how perfectly disciplined and healthy you are, how you will never have to worry about getting obese.

Now I know you all mean well but what you say isn't necessarily what people hear. And what is heard is the important thing. Telling someone how disciplined and wise you are can be heard by the people listening as how undisciplined and foolish they are. And that just make a body want wanna talk to our good friend Sara Lee.

A fellow poster needs help, not testimonials to our own greatness.

Let us help him.

Athena,

Thank you. Upon waking this morning and seeing how the discussion was deteriorating, my post was going to be:

'Thank you for your opinions Jimmy, however, as it seems we are destined to disagree on this, let's move on.'

 

[gmbteach]

So helping doesn't include using personal experience and how we have personally managed?

One thing I've noticed in the past in threads like this, a few people don't like to hear that other people are in shape because of work and sacrifice. They rather believe that people are "just lucky".

Actually Jimmy, no.

Your personal experience is far removed from that of a morbidly obese person and you have gone to great lengths to let everyone reading this know exactly that.

I know you think you are helping, but I don't think you are.

See, when you are carrying around over a hundred extra pounds of weight, thin people seem to line up to tell you over and over and over again how they do this and they do that and how is you would just do what they do, you to could be one of the beautiful people..

Seriously, Jimmy, what do you think you have shared here that metaphor and everyone else here hasn't already heard?

Well said Athena.

 

[ronburgundy]

The problem is not "the media", or at least, the media is not my problem. But there are two sets of opinions that are very much my problem.

The first is that being morbidly obese negatively affects my job prospects, whether from conscious or unconscious bias on the part of employers, and perhaps from unconscious behaviours I myself engage in, due to my obesity. I did pretty well at university, and some members of my current team at work have expressed astonishment that I'm at such a low level (relatively speaking, in terms of the public service).

The second set of opinions that really do matter are the opinions of gay men in my potential age-range datingwise (which I've placed at 18-50), since it is their perceptions of my attractiveness that will determine my chances of finding, at long last, a long term boyfriend. I can't tell them they're unfair for not wanting to date me, because I wouldn't date me (I'm a great fat friend, though).
.

All those employers and potential boyfriends were socialized and had attitudes shaped by the media. So, isn't it plausible that media plays a role in how employers and dating prospects see and treat you?

Perhaps you level of obesity is so great that it would evoke even an non-socialized response that would impact your treatment, but the media isn't helping. Also, tying into my hedonism vs. sacrifice theme, the general US culture with its bullshit protestant work ethic and anti-hedonism attitude is all part of it too. You can't change that and thus cannot change how it affects you in these real and meaningful ways. That's why I think my "it's all about optimizing pleasure" approach can work here. Your job, income, and romantic relations are other sources of pleasure, and combined with the long term health issue, they should tip the scale (another pun intended) in favor of a hedonistic driven approach to weight loss, not toward a body ideal but toward optimizing pleasure from different sources in your life.

BTW, as a gay man, you're really in a tough spot. Men are shallow and superficial in the importance they place on looks. The all-maleness of that community appears to have made that even more true among many gay men. It is a stereotype but also seems to be a fact that juice bars and gyms are an indicator that large numbers of gay men are moving into a neighborhood.

 

[Metaphor]

All those employers and potential boyfriends were socialized and had attitudes shaped by the media. So, isn't it plausible that media plays a role in how employers and dating prospects see and treat you?

I'd say the media influences perceptions but the ideal did not spring, fully-formed, out of nowhere. It's rather the other way around: the media (advertising, films, television, even or perhaps especially popular music) embrace the male ideal form because people already like it. Advertising can make us desire products by attaching them to something we already desire, unlearned -- beautiful people.

Perhaps you level of obesity is so great that it would evoke even an non-socialized response that would impact your treatment, but the media isn't helping. Also, tying into my hedonism vs. sacrifice theme, the general US culture with its bullshit protestant work ethic and anti-hedonism attitude is all part of it too. You can't change that and thus cannot change how it affects you in these real and meaningful ways. That's why I think my "it's all about optimizing pleasure" approach can work here. Your job, income, and romantic relations are other sources of pleasure, and combined with the long term health issue, they should tip the scale (another pun intended) in favor of a hedonistic driven approach to weight loss, not toward a body ideal but toward optimizing pleasure from different sources in your life.

I expect I would be happier, in total, with a body much closer to ideal and foregoing much of the pleasure of eating, but it isn't a box I can tick. It would be easy to say drug addicts prefer to be addicted, otherwise they'd give up the drugs, but that isn't reality.

BTW, as a gay man, you're really in a tough spot. Men are shallow and superficial in the importance they place on looks. The all-maleness of that community appears to have made that even more true among many gay men. It is a stereotype but also seems to be a fact that juice bars and gyms are an indicator that large numbers of gay men are moving into a neighborhood.

Absolutely gay men value looks, probably because all men value looks in their partner. I value them highly too. It's simply a brute fact that I like looking at handsome men with toned bodies more than other types of bodies. Nothing will change that brute fact.

 

[Toni]

I'd say the media influences perceptions but the ideal did not spring, fully-formed, out of nowhere. It's rather the other way around: the media (advertising, films, television, even or perhaps especially popular music) embrace the male ideal form because people already like it. Advertising can make us desire products by attaching them to something we already desire, unlearned -- beautiful people.

I still stand by my previous statements that perceptions of beauty are largely cultural and also often particular to an era. This worship of ultra thin, ultra toned bodies is relatively recent. One need only examine the works of many classical artists, or even look at films from 50 years ago or earlier, as well as examine adverts from prior to the late 1960's to see that I am correct.

Our ideas of what is healthy have also changed dramatically. Partly this is because the advent of antibiotics and reliable food sources, extra body fat was desirable to see you through an illness or time of limited food supply. We also know more about health than we used to know.

I expect I would be happier, in total, with a body much closer to ideal and foregoing much of the pleasure of eating, but it isn't a box I can tick. It would be easy to say drug addicts prefer to be addicted, otherwise they'd give up the drugs, but that isn't reality.

I am sure you would be happier and healthier at a BMI that is within the normal range. I would be, as well.

But I disagree that you cannot change what you like and dislike. I grew up eating plenty of meat and fried food and liked it. As a young adult, I was a vegetarian. Meat was extremely unappetizing during that time, especially a chunk of it. Over time, I began incorporating meat and enjoy it again a couple of times a week but never fried. I have learned to simply refuse some things I know are unhealthy for me and over time, my cravings for those things disappear. It is possible to change what you like. Whether it is worth it to you or not is something you must decide for yourself.

Absolutely gay men value looks, probably because all men value looks in their partner. I value them highly too. It's simply a brute fact that I like looking at handsome men with toned bodies more than other types of bodies. Nothing will change that brute fact.

You are right that people judge others by their looks. Overweight people are often assumed to be lazy and to lack discipline and to be less capable. Men are also highly visual creatures so, in terms of immediate sexual attractiveness, being overweight will limit the number of people who are attracted to you (at first sight, anyway).

Nonetheless, I was correct in my earlier post: The human body is a marvelous, beautiful thing. Even battered, scarred by life. Even far from ideals of contemporary beauty or contemporary ideals of health. This from a standpoint of both aesthetics (sorry: I find people fascinating, physically, emotionally, socially, intellectually, in every way possible) and from a scientific point of view.

We would all agree that you would be healthier if your BMI was lower and within the range of 'normal.' Most people would find you more physically attractive as well and you would probably be perceived differently in a professional setting as well. That is reality.

The question is what are you willing to do?

I think that if you have not, your first step should be to consult a good doctor and have a full medical work up. State your goals and probably develop goals with the medical professionals.

My opinion is that your first goal should be to become more physically healthy. Better health will drive a lot of how you feel and how you feel about yourself. This will in turn drive your confidence level which will affect in a positive way how others perceive you, both as a potential sexual partner and also professionally.

What I know for certain is that limiting your food intake alone will not affect the changes or even the weight loss you seek. You must also move more. And more and more. And do it forever.

It will not be easy. In fact, it will be terrifically difficult. But it will become easier also.

You will probably never have the body of a dancer but you can have a more healthy body.

Working with a nutritionist will be immensely helpful. So will establishing a physical fitness routine. Probably this will involve some kind of gym or fitness center, words I know will strike horror in your heart but necessary. Ideally--truly I think you should do your best to aim for this: work with a personal trainer whose goals should be to help you increase your fitness at a pace your body can tolerate in a healthy way.

You will also need to turn off the voices inside your head that tell you it is useless. Difficult yes. Useless: no. If you are surrounded by others who live the same unhealthy lifestyle, either learn to ignore them or recruit them and work on better health together.

You are a data driven guy. Generate your own data: record your food and your activities each day. Also note social/emotional triggers. Sometimes just recognizing them: (eating when angry or tired or sad or lonely or while watching television or whatever) can help you avoid or change your reaction. Note progress over time. If you fall off, don't give up but return to your plan/program. You are a human being so like every other human being, you will make mistakes. So what? It is not an excuse to give up.

For the record, I used to be quite thin (without effort) and now am way too heavy. At a certain point, my metabolism just changed. It is hard to lose weight. Trust me, I know. But your gender and your age (male, younger than I am) are to your advantage.

Let us know how you do. We're pulling for you.

 

[Thomas II]

What Toni said...

 

[bigfield]

I still stand by my previous statements that perceptions of beauty are largely cultural and also often particular to an era. This worship of ultra thin, ultra toned bodies is relatively recent. One need only examine the works of many classical artists, or even look at films from 50 years ago or earlier, as well as examine adverts from prior to the late 1960's to see that I am correct.

Chances are we will not go back to a culture like that: we've seen how hot people can actually get, and you can't un-see that.

 

[dismal]

I still stand by my previous statements that perceptions of beauty are largely cultural and also often particular to an era. This worship of ultra thin, ultra toned bodies is relatively recent. One need only examine the works of many classical artists, or even look at films from 50 years ago or earlier, as well as examine adverts from prior to the late 1960's to see that I am correct.

Chances are we will not go back to a culture like that: we've seen how hot people can actually get, and you can't un-see that.

And, regardless, we are living in this era and this culture.

 

[Toni]

I still stand by my previous statements that perceptions of beauty are largely cultural and also often particular to an era. This worship of ultra thin, ultra toned bodies is relatively recent. One need only examine the works of many classical artists, or even look at films from 50 years ago or earlier, as well as examine adverts from prior to the late 1960's to see that I am correct.

Chances are we will not go back to a culture like that: we've seen how hot people can actually get, and you can't un-see that.

Maybe. But I was still much more attracted to Robin Williams when he was alive than Brad Pitt. I've also never been attracted to overly muscled men. They look like cartoons to me. Funny, smart guys who love kids and animals and who are kind and decent : that's hot to me. Bonus if they can cook. Double bonus if they are good at home repairs.

 

[bigfield]

Chances are we will not go back to a culture like that: we've seen how hot people can actually get, and you can't un-see that.

Maybe. But I was still much more attracted to Robin Williams when he was alive than Brad Pitt. I've also never been attracted to overly muscled men. They look like cartoons to me. Funny, smart guys who love kids and animals and who are kind and decent : that's hot to me. Bonus if they can cook. Double bonus if they are good at home repairs.

The lean, athletic iook--not the balloon-animal bodybuilder look--is super hot to a very large number of people.

Artists have been representing lean and muscled bodies as a physical ideal since the Greeks sculpted their gods. Our interest in that body type is not merely an anomaly of modern culture, an abherration; it is highly unlikely that most people are able to rate physical sex appeal as lowly as you do.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Some men find thin people attractive, some don't. Even at my heaviest, I did not go lacking for male attention. And I know heavy set gay men who are doing just fine.

if you can't find someone you like who likes you, maybe you need to find another place to look.

 

[Bronzeage]

Maybe. But I was still much more attracted to Robin Williams when he was alive than Brad Pitt. I've also never been attracted to overly muscled men. They look like cartoons to me. Funny, smart guys who love kids and animals and who are kind and decent : that's hot to me. Bonus if they can cook. Double bonus if they are good at home repairs.

The lean, athletic iook--not the balloon-animal bodybuilder look--is super hot to a very large number of people.

Artists have been representing lean and muscled bodies as a physical ideal since the Greeks sculpted their gods. Our interest in that body type is not merely an anomaly of modern culture, an abherration; it is highly unlikely that most people are able to rate physical sex appeal as lowly as you do.

The ideal body type of any culture is a composite of health and wealth.

The Greeks sculpted warriors because wealth came from conquest and conquest came from lean muscled fighters. The balloon animal look is something that only appeals to other balloon animal types. To most women, it seems narcissistic and it's not a particularly healthy life choice.

When most people worked in the fields and bordered on malnutrition, the ideal of beauty was skin so white, blood vessels were visible under the skin. We called them "blue bloods." When working class people moved from the fields to poorly lit factories, it did little to improve their health, but it did make them pale. The ideal of beauty became a nice rich tan.

There was a time before that, when health and wealth had different meaning. This is the Venus of Willendorf.

Some people think this little stone figure is 24,000 years old. I know some women who look very much like this figure, but I doubt the sculptor of this piece did. He or she obviously understood his subject very well. The detail is very nice, but I don't understand why there are no facial features.

It's strange to think that 24 millennia ago, morbid obesity would have been seen as a blessing. Humans are no smarter today than they were in those days. Their powers of observation were just as sharp as ours. One thing they would know for certain, thin emaciated women had flat breasts, a boney ass, and never got pregnant. This is still true today. When a woman's body fat drops too low, she stops ovulating.

Little is known of the social structure of those people, but the Venus of Willendorf offers an intriguing window into their world. Maybe children were desired and valued. Maybe the hunter(or tribe) who could provide a rich enough diet for their women to ensure fertility, enjoyed high status.

I can't help but wonder about the reaction of one of our cousins from 22K years ago were brought to the present and dropped into any Walmart in the country.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Don't get me going on the "Venus"... it's also not relevant to the discussion.

 

[prideandfall]

It's strange to think that 24 millennia ago, morbid obesity would have been seen as a blessing. Humans are no smarter today than they were in those days. Their powers of observation were just as sharp as ours. One thing they would know for certain, thin emaciated women had flat breasts, a boney ass, and never got pregnant. This is still true today. When a woman's body fat drops too low, she stops ovulating.

Little is known of the social structure of those people, but the Venus of Willendorf offers an intriguing window into their world. Maybe children were desired and valued. Maybe the hunter(or tribe) who could provide a rich enough diet for their women to ensure fertility, enjoyed high status.

recent studies indicate many, if not most, ancient peoples art may have been done by women:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/10/131008-women-handprints-oldest-neolithic-cave-art/

bouncing off that, a fairly logical seeming theory that the willendorf type statues are actually "self portraits", because if you're working looking down at your pregnancy and you've never actually looked at yourself before, you very well may come up with exactly that.
http://faculty.ucmo.edu/ldm4683/6.htm

 

[prideandfall]

here's what i find bizarre:
that a large number of people ostensibly against "fat shaming" and who are supposedly trying to fight a culture war for the general respect of body shapes and such, have decided to go about this by "skinny shaming" anyone who isn't fat.
the whole "i'll make myself feel better by cutting you down" tactic just strikes me as absurdly elementary school levels of behavior coming from people who are claiming to be adults.

 

[Toni]

The lean, athletic iook--not the balloon-animal bodybuilder look--is super hot to a very large number of people.

Artists have been representing lean and muscled bodies as a physical ideal since the Greeks sculpted their gods. Our interest in that body type is not merely an anomaly of modern culture, an abherration; it is highly unlikely that most people are able to rate physical sex appeal as lowly as you do.

The ideal body type of any culture is a composite of health and wealth.

The Greeks sculpted warriors because wealth came from conquest and conquest came from lean muscled fighters. The balloon animal look is something that only appeals to other balloon animal types. To most women, it seems narcissistic and it's not a particularly healthy life choice.

When most people worked in the fields and bordered on malnutrition, the ideal of beauty was skin so white, blood vessels were visible under the skin. We called them "blue bloods." When working class people moved from the fields to poorly lit factories, it did little to improve their health, but it did make them pale. The ideal of beauty became a nice rich tan.

There was a time before that, when health and wealth had different meaning. This is the Venus of Willendorf. View attachment 2452

Some people think this little stone figure is 24,000 years old. I know some women who look very much like this figure, but I doubt the sculptor of this piece did. He or she obviously understood his subject very well. The detail is very nice, but I don't understand why there are no facial features.

It's strange to think that 24 millennia ago, morbid obesity would have been seen as a blessing. Humans are no smarter today than they were in those days. Their powers of observation were just as sharp as ours. One thing they would know for certain, thin emaciated women had flat breasts, a boney ass, and never got pregnant. This is still true today. When a woman's body fat drops too low, she stops ovulating.

Little is known of the social structure of those people, but the Venus of Willendorf offers an intriguing window into their world. Maybe children were desired and valued. Maybe the hunter(or tribe) who could provide a rich enough diet for their women to ensure fertility, enjoyed high status.

I can't help but wonder about the reaction of one of our cousins from 22K years ago were brought to the present and dropped into any Walmart in the country.

It represents an archetype, not a physical ideal. If you look at the paintings os say, the Dutch Masters, you will sees my representations of female beauty that we would consider to be fat. He'll, Sophia Loren would be regarded as 'too fat' by many

 

[DrZoidberg]

I still stand by my previous statements that perceptions of beauty are largely cultural and also often particular to an era. This worship of ultra thin, ultra toned bodies is relatively recent. One need only examine the works of many classical artists, or even look at films from 50 years ago or earlier, as well as examine adverts from prior to the late 1960's to see that I am correct.

While, true there's an underlying message here, ie we can chose to see diversity as beautiful... or something along those lines. But that's nonsense. We have an instinctual drive to place people in hierarchies and try to aim for as high as we think we can get (both to sleep with and to be). Whatever body is hard to achieve, and which signals health, is whatever we will place at the top of the hierarchy. That is a common thread in all cultures view of beauty. In cultures where starvation is an issue plumpness has been seen as attractive. Those cultures didn't embrace body diversity any more than we did. Historically there's been absolutely grotesque traditions of force-feeding young women to make them more desirable to men. It wasn't any easier back in the 50'ies either and there's nothing in your line of argument that would suggest we have any ability to manipulate what makes us attracted to anything. In all cultures in all ages there has been one constant message... you're not ok the way you are. Just check out clothing for people of high status. Absolutely bizarre creations, in order to force the bodies into unnatural positions in order to make themselves hyper-attractive in various ways. This has been especially true for high status women.

Oh... and symmetrical faces and bodies. Those are also always high up in the hierarchy of beauty. We have no control over that desire either.