Another Fucking Mass Shooting At US School

[Loren Pechtel]

It is being reported he was at the VA seeking mental health care.
Time for those people to talk about the need for "mental health care"... before walking away never to discuss it again until the next mass murder.

What do you mean? He was receiving mental health care. What this shows is that mental health issues are difficult to handle, and just having access is often not enough.

Yup, mental health care is not some panacea.

There is a lot that needs improvement but the improvements are probably not going to be in the tail.

Fuck, it is harder to log into my utility account to pay my electric bill than to get a gun.

Unless you really suck at logging in into online accounts, that is most certainly false.

I wouldn't go quite that far.

Gun dealers make it as easy as possible to run the required checks. Utilities have no competition, they don't care about customer service. I've had everything (except, for some reason, it's impossible with the sewer--and they've done something that messed the system up this year) on autopay since the 90s, but when my checking account had to be replaced it was IIRC the gas company that the system was quite a pain to get updated.

 

[Patooka]

almost certainly more lives are saved in defensive situations than are lost in mass shootings

[citation needed]

You really shoulld know better by now.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It is being reported he was at the VA seeking mental health care.
Time for those people to talk about the need for "mental health care"... before walking away never to discuss it again until the next mass murder.

What do you mean? He was receiving mental health care. What this shows is that mental health issues are difficult to handle, and just having access is often not enough.

Yup, mental health care is not some panacea.

There is a lot that needs improvement but the improvements are probably not going to be in the tail.

Wow, back to back posts that just make my brain want to hit the eject button.

No one said mental health care will solve all mental health problems. I was noting that people have a tendency of pretending to care about access to mental health care after someone that wasn't mentally well enough to have a gun, committed an awful crime with a gun they never should have had.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How did he get his gun(s)?

That was rhetorical, right?

Not really. He had a previous conviction. So, either he got the gun(s) illegally, or there was an oversight from the state.

One thing is certain: that firearm, no matter how many hands it passed through, ultimately traces back to a legal point of origin.

Edit: Let’s stop pussyfooting around this. As long as firearms are being manufactured and remain legal, there’s no realistic way to keep them entirely out of criminal hands. If you’re comfortable with them being legal, then you’re also accepting the reality that some will end up in the wrong hands. The two go hand in hand.

And you're going to take them from law enforcement, also?

If not, they'll still get into criminal hands.

And we can't keep out drugs, you think we can keep out guns?

And it's reached the point that CNC machines can do much of making a gun. Not competitive with a factory but I'm sure you have heard of the ghost guns that are about. It's not the printed stuff that matters--those are single shot, unreliable and hazardous for the user. But the CNC-manufactured stuff is just as good as what the factory makes.

And even if you completely cut off the supply there are so many out there that the problem won't go away.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is being reported he was at the VA seeking mental health care.
Time for those people to talk about the need for "mental health care"... before walking away never to discuss it again until the next mass murder.

What do you mean? He was receiving mental health care. What this shows is that mental health issues are difficult to handle, and just having access is often not enough.

Fuck, it is harder to log into my utility account to pay my electric bill than to get a gun.

Unless you really suck at logging in into online accounts, that is most certainly false.

I need to know my username and password (typical). And then I need to own a cell phone, have it on me, to receive a text message code to get into my account.

You can just get a weapon on the street. It isn't legal, but so isn't murder.

But how long does it take you to find someone selling a street gun??

 

[Toni]

1. Most people have some degree of mental illness, at least at some point in their lives.

2. Much mental illness—but not all—is amenable to treatment. That treatment may be more or less effective for different individuals and may or may not have side effects that are difficult to tolerate, mentally or emotionally or physically. The side effects may and often do cause other issues and some patients may find that the side effects are not worth the benefits Stopping some such medications without appropriate supervision may cause serious side effects involving mental health stability. Usually temporary.

3. Most people dealing with mental health issues are not violent nor prone to violence.

4. Anyone can have a mental health crisis. Anyone. Everyone posting here abd everyone you know can have a mental health crisis.

4. Most people undergoing mental health crises are not violent and even fewer are violent towards other people.

5. Some people who function quite normally in society are sociopaths or psychopaths. They can usually pass most mental health screening and don’t generally see a need further mental health care. They might be great at running businesses —or deciding to shoot up a shopping mall , not out of emotional angst but because they lack empathy and it is no more to them than stepping on an ant.

6. Some people engage in gun violence for more immediate practical reasons, usually with other criminal intent. Shooting someone in the commission of a robbery, for example.

The problem with gun violence is not mental illness.

The problem with gun violence is the easy, almost unfettered access to firearms in general but specifically firearms with large capacity magazines abd the. Capacity to fire very quickly.

We will always have people who are mentally ill, people who are facing crises, and people who are sociopaths and psychopaths. These exist across the world. What dors not exist across the world is such unfettered access to high capacity firearms designed to kill human beings.

That is what we need to change.

 

[bilby]

And you're going to take them from law enforcement, also?

If not, they'll still get into criminal hands.

And we can't keep out drugs, you think we can keep out guns?

FFS, will you PLEASE drop the absurd strawman position that gun control is about making guns unavailable to criminals?

No country on Earth has made it impossible, or even very hard, for criminals to get guns.

As you point out, all countries have armed police, and most routinely arm all police. Police firearms are sometimes diverted to illegal use, by various paths including theft and police corruption.

And yet most criminals do not habitually go armed in nations with strong gun control, (whereas mostly they do habitually go armed in the USA).

Your strawman suggests that they would, but they don't.

So it must be missing something important.

Read it slowly, and think hard, then tell me why you think it is wrong (if you still do after actually thinking):

GUN CONTROL IS NOT ABOUT MAKING GUNS DIFFICULT FOR CRIMINALS TO OBTAIN, IT IS ABOUT MAKING THEM UNDESIRABLE FOR CRIMINALS TO OBTAIN.

Any argument against gun control that points out that criminals will still be able to obtain guns, if this or that control is put in place, is therefore a stupid argument based on a strawman of the gun control position, and you shold feel deeply ashamed at your intellectual dishonesty each and every time you make such an argument.

Criminals can easily obtain guns regardless of the gun control laws in a given country, and that does nothing whatsoever to lessen the value of such laws in protecting society against gun crime.

 

[Gospel]

How did he get his gun(s)?

That was rhetorical, right?

Not really. He had a previous conviction. So, either he got the gun(s) illegally, or there was an oversight from the state.

One thing is certain: that firearm, no matter how many hands it passed through, ultimately traces back to a legal point of origin.

Edit: Let’s stop pussyfooting around this. As long as firearms are being manufactured and remain legal, there’s no realistic way to keep them entirely out of criminal hands. If you’re comfortable with them being legal, then you’re also accepting the reality that some will end up in the wrong hands. The two go hand in hand.

And you're going to take them from law enforcement, also?

If not, they'll still get into criminal hands.

And we can't keep out drugs, you think we can keep out guns?

And it's reached the point that CNC machines can do much of making a gun. Not competitive with a factory but I'm sure you have heard of the ghost guns that are about. It's not the printed stuff that matters--those are single shot, unreliable and hazardous for the user. But the CNC-manufactured stuff is just as good as what the factory makes.

And even if you completely cut off the supply there are so many out there that the problem won't go away.

You’re arguing against a position I didn’t take, again, which is both predictable and boring. I never said anything about taking guns away. What I said is simple: if firearms are legal and widely available, some will inevitably end up in criminal hands. That’s just reality. If you support guns remaining legal, then you’re accepting the tradeoff that comes with it.

You can argue that the tradeoff is worth it, but pretending the downside isn’t directly tied to availability is a mental disorder. Gun rights supporters like myself acting surprised or outraged every time someone who shouldn’t have a gun ends up with one doesn’t make sense to me.

And to be clear, it’s not like the law is soft on this. There are already serious penalties for illegal possession at both the federal and state level. The Gun Control Act of 1968 makes it a felony for prohibited individuals to possess firearms, with penalties that can mean years behind bars.

However enforcement, predictably mind you, isn’t always consistent. Charges get reduced, sentences end up lighter than expected, and outcomes vary. I've read the teeth gnashing and bitching repeatedly on this forum. But that still reinforces my point. Even with laws on the books, the system doesn’t perfectly stop access or guarantee uniform consequences.

Acting surprised when the government operates inefficiently doesn’t make much sense to me either.

CNC talk doesn’t change anything either, if anything, it reinforces the point that access can’t be perfectly controlled, which is exactly why the tradeoffs matter.

I’m tired of the performative outrage and gaslighting from gun rights advocates. If you support widespread gun ownership, own the tradeoffs and argue for it honestly.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How did he get his gun(s)?

That was rhetorical, right?

Not really. He had a previous conviction. So, either he got the gun(s) illegally, or there was an oversight from the state.

One thing is certain: that firearm, no matter how many hands it passed through, ultimately traces back to a legal point of origin.

Edit: Let’s stop pussyfooting around this. As long as firearms are being manufactured and remain legal, there’s no realistic way to keep them entirely out of criminal hands. If you’re comfortable with them being legal, then you’re also accepting the reality that some will end up in the wrong hands. The two go hand in hand.

And you're going to take them from law enforcement, also?

If not, they'll still get into criminal hands.

And we can't keep out drugs, you think we can keep out guns?

The wide availability of the weapons at this point is almost certainly a point of no return.

We (or maybe just I) wanted to note that those that implied we have nothing to worry about with such widespread accessibility, were "fucking wrong".

And even if you completely cut off the supply there are so many out there that the problem won't go away.

Exactly, thanks for that!

Every time I drive by a school I see the reminder of that with the number stickers on the classroom windows that are there to inform the Police SWAT team arriving at the school, which room the dead children are in.

 

[Elixir]

And you're going to take them from law enforcement, also?

Not a bad idea.
It hasn’t turned England into a hotbed of crime. The death rates of citizens at the hands of law enforcement reveal a stark comparison.
From 2021 - 33.5 people per 10 million were killed by LE in the U.S., versus 0.5 per 10 million in England and Wales. IOW, the average American is about 67 times more likely to be killed by LEOs than is the average Brit.
We have to ask ourselves -
“If it only saved 1000 lives per year, wouldn’t it be worth it?”

 

[Derec]

Five people were shot, but luckily nobody is dead (at least not as of now).

One of the shooters, one Camron Harris, 19, was apprehended. He is apparently not a student.

Suspect in Virginia State University shooting is arrested after police find him hiding in a closet

 

[Patooka]

Is anyone confused about the ethnicity of the shooter derec felt the need to start a discussion about?

I canthelp you out, but I think we all know the answer. Maybe someone will show a photo who didn't search the incident whilst being mobile. (I can't or dont know how to link from a mobile)*

 

[Patooka]

I think we all know this story.

 

[Derec]

Is anyone confused about the ethnicity of the shooter derec felt the need to start a discussion about?

That was pretty clear when one of the usual suspects did not start a thread already.

The real question is: why does the Ilk consider school shootings significant only if the perp is white?

 

[Patooka]

Poor you. Always the victim.

 

[Toni]

Is anyone confused about the ethnicity of the shooter derec felt the need to start a discussion about?

That was pretty clear when one of the usual suspects did not start a thread already.

The real question is: why does the Ilk consider school shootings significant only if the perp is white?

Oh, it was pretty clear when the usual suspect brought this here what color the suspected shooter is.

 

[laughing dog]

Is anyone confused about the ethnicity of the shooter derec felt the need to start a discussion about?

That was pretty clear when one of the usual suspects did not start a thread already.

The real question is: why does the Ilk consider school shootings significant only if the perp is white?

Why do you think school shootings significant only if the perp is not a white US citizen?

 

[ZiprHead]

Is anyone confused about the ethnicity of the shooter derec felt the need to start a discussion about?

That was pretty clear when one of the usual suspects did not start a thread already.

The real question is: why does the Ilk consider school shootings significant only if the perp is white?

Assuming the rest of us heard of the event and ignored it. I certainly had not until you posted it here.

 

[Playball40]

It was on campus but not while school was in session. It stemmed from an earlier argument apparently.

 

[ZiprHead]

Duplicate threads merged.