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Do you think that American relations with European countries can be restored post-Trump?

Tammuz

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As we all know, Trump has run the US in a course that is very different compared to what it has been post-WW2. He has discarded many old alliances and relationships, except those with Israel and Saudi Arabia, and openly fawns over authoritarian heads of state like Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong-un, and Xi Jinping.

After the first Trump term, Biden was able to restore relations with European countries. And during that term, Trump was being held back a little because he was surrounded by more Reaganite Republicans, who had a more traditional view of which countries are friends and allies, and which are not.

During the Munich Security Conference back in February, Gavin Newsom told the attendees that Trump is gone in three years, that he is temporary, implying that relations could be restored once Trump is gone. But can they?

If the next president is JD Vance, then no. He loathes the European countries even more than Trump does. A lot of Trump's motivation seems to boil down to his massive ego and self-image of being a master-negotiator (and to make as much money from the presidency as possible) rather than any deeper convictions. But even if Newsom or some other Democrat becomes president, around half of the voters will support an ideology that makes the US an unreliable partner.

What do you think?
 
I think relations can be repaired but not restored to the same level. In one sense the reduction in the level of trust is a loss, but in another sense it will force Europe to commit more thought and resources to its defense, and spur business innovation.

I am still flabbergasted at our unwillingness to even half heartedly support Ukraine. Especially while we waste resources on Iran.

JD Vance has no charisma nor a national base. The MAGAs with whom I am familiar think he’s a joke.
 
As we all know, Trump has run the US in a course that is very different compared to what it has been post-WW2.

Correct.

He has discarded many old alliances and relationships, except those with Israel and Saudi Arabia, and openly fawns over authoritarian heads of state like Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong-un, and Xi Jinping.

Agree.

After the first Trump term, Biden was able to restore relations with European countries. And during that term, Trump was being held back a little because he was surrounded by more Reaganite Republicans, who had a more traditional view of which countries are friends and allies, and which are not.

He was more held back. I'm not sure it was because of that reason, but yes.

During the Munich Security Conference back in February, Gavin Newsom told the attendees that Trump is gone in three years, that he is temporary, implying that relations could be restored once Trump is gone. But can they?

Well, Gavin Newsom could be wrong. Trump might stay on after his term. If Trump is in charge for some 12 years or so, the geopolitical landscape could be very, very different. In one scenario, Europe could be divided up as vassal states between Russia and the US, for example. Now, assuming Trump could be out and some Democrat takes his his place, you'd also need the Senate to be in favor of the policy changes because they are supposed to ratify treaties, anyway. Really I think the Democrats would need to be in control of the government for a long, long time to undo all the crap he will have done in 4 years in office. Contrast this with: Democrats in charge for 4 years and then Republican back in charge the next 4 in a loop. What progress would be made and why would Europe (or even Canada) trust us if every time a Republican is in office, they get shit on?

If the next president is JD Vance, then no. He loathes the European countries even more than Trump does. A lot of Trump's motivation seems to boil down to his massive ego and self-image of being a master-negotiator (and to make as much money from the presidency as possible) rather than any deeper convictions.

I partly agree with this, but Hair Furor also got many of his ideas from Project 2025. I just mean, the direction of Empire and Oligarchy may not be confined only to Trump's ideas. Some other individual could continue the institutional changes in his absence for these goals.

But even if Newsom or some other Democrat becomes president, around half of the voters will support an ideology that makes the US an unreliable partner.

Yes, that is correct. Congress could be split. Or as described above, there could be a cycle between electing pro-Europe Democrats and crazy Republicans.

What do you think?

I guess we're fucked.
 
Democratic presidents can make the US friends with Europe again but the alliance can not be heeled and Europe will not trust the US until at least 2 or 3 Republican presidents are seriously committed to the European alliance. And we can't have another massive dick like Trump again.
 
Europe eventually forgave Germany.
If the Rupugnant Party dies-out, our allies will forgive us. If not we loose them for good.
Rump is putting us deeper in debt. Which wouldn't be a problem as long as our allies/debitors trust us. But Rump is destroying that trust as fast as he is raising the debt.
 
Alliances are great and Trump is a fool but European nations should be better prepared to defend themselves. Nations closest to Russia understand this. While I think one world cop makes for the most stable conditions, Trump is not wrong in pressing European nations in ramping up their defense production. The US needs to focus on China. Say what you will but China is not building up their army out of concern of a US attack on mainland China.

Russia has shown how conventionally weak they are on the military stage but they will forever focus on violence toward and conquest of their neighbors. It's their nature. But nothing is getting carved up and Russia will not receive any spoils. Hell, they are stuck in about the same place in Ukraine they've been since their war started. All they have to show for it is a brain drain from their country, over a million casualties, and a wrecked economy. It looks like the tide is turning against Russia. Ukraine appears to grow stronger while Russia weaker.

European nations are increasing defense spending, Germany in particular. Contracts are written, people are hired, production is increased. They are not turning back. With or without the US, Russia can be contained by NATO in Europe. No problem. Ukraine just might push them back. If the Strait of Hormuz is opened, oil prices will fall and that just might break Russia.

Trump in his ham-handed way has changed NATO for the better.
 
Restored altogether? I think not. The truth is that they are permanently restructuring themselves to account for our absence. Relationships and processes that had been stuck in place by inertia and circumstance since the Cold War have been upended and removed, generally to Europe's benefit and our detriment. But let us not forget that Trump did not occur in a vacuum. We did not just elect him, our culture created him.
 
I’ve thought first a while now ( before Trump) that things needed to shift between the US and our European allies ( plus of course Australia) and to a certain extent, Japan and Taiwan. From a US perspective, it has seemed to me that the US has been acting like the oldest sibling, carrying a lot of the weight for defense. I’m less concerned about the monetary cost ( although that frankly has held back US spending on necessary social infrastructure enjoyed by many/most/all of our allies. I’m concerned more about the perception at least of an imbalance of power , and of political sway. I tend to think of human relationships, including between nations, as similar to families. Post WWII, the US had suffered far less damage to our infrastructure: it made sense for us to take on a lot of the weight of physically providing military might. Kind of like the big brother —although I am extremely aware that we are more like the baby sibling to Europe. But still: militarily, the dominant sibling. I think it is better for everyone if we all decide that we are all adults ( hopefully this horror show will pass without too much more damage) on equal footing in reality. No one stronger military partner. All of us equal and unique, with all of our concerns and needs being addressed on equal footing. I’m fine if the US provides more militarily for a while although in my ideal world, the need for a military would be greatly reduced or non-existent because we’d be better at settling differences and incentivizing bullies to behave. More carrots fewer sticks.

We all do better when we all do better.
 
Nations don't have friends, they have interests.

It was in the interest of the NATO nations to rely on the US for defense, and it was in the interest of the US to provide that defense.

Trump has not only abjectly failed to recognise the second part of that, he has also made denial of it into a mainstream political opinion in the US electorate.

The US paid for the armed forces to protect the rest of NATO, and all she got in return was the geopolitical clout to dominate the entire world and to shape international commerce to the massive benefit of America.

Isolationism made the USA a footnote in world affairs, before her involvement in two world wars made her into a hegemonic superpower, and her involvement in the Cold War, with the willing cooperation of NATO, then made her the world's ONLY superpower.

And with typical simpletonism, Trump and his MAGA morons have looked at one side of that ledger, and utterly failed to see the other. NATO cost the US Trillions - but she got in return the entire world. It was the bargain of the (twentieth) century.

There's no way to rebuild that. It was a one-time offer, from a world broken by two world wars, and terrified of Soviet invasion of Europe.

Europe is now far more politically and economically united than it was during the Cold War. The USA were able to use their dominance to make the rest of NATO buy American weapons systems, that no individual European state could have afforded to develop for themselves. But the EU can afford this stuff, as a united economic bloc. And that ability to pay was a potential threat to the US.

Trump has turned that potential threat to US dominance, into an actual EU opportunity to take a slice of the cake back. Something that US Presidents since Eisenhower have worked hard to avoid, because it will cost America her world domination.

It's not coming back.

Like Brexit, the Trump Doctrine of an American exit from NATO is irreversable. The egg can't be unscrambled. There's no going back, no matter how awful the consequences. NATO was, above all, built on the rock-solid certainty that Article 5 meant unflinching US protection - up to and including the nuclear annihilation of the aggressor - for any member who was attacked. The slightest hint that the US might not hold up her end of that, is inevitably and irreversably fatal to the alliance - or at least to the US role as its dominant member.

Europe now has to defend herself. So, why would she allow a foreign power, such as the US, to maintain bases in her territory?

The US went it alone (well, with only Israel as an ally) in her attack on Iran - but it would have been a very different, and much more expensive, war had the US been denied the use of airfields in the UK, Germany, and Diego Garcia (the latter being a UK colonial posession). And it's not just European bases the US depends upon for power projection. US bases in Saudi Arabia, Oman, Bahrain, Kuwait, and the UAE exist because those nations were prepared to help the US to project world-dominating power, in exchange for US protection against any attacker.

America can bomb Iran, because the USAF can re-stock and refuel at bases around the world. Without those bases, her ability is sharply curtailed. Bombing Tehran is still possible directly from the Continental USA, but only with long and complex mid-air refuelling routes. If denied overflight rights by intervening nations, these become longer still (bombers from UK bases often had to fly around France and Spain during the recent campaign). And if any intervening nation was not only uncooperative, but actively opposed to such US action, the whole exercise becomes extremely hazardous.

She can use aircraft carriers to mitigate this to some extent, but you can't operate big bombers from aircraft carriers. And without friendly overseas resupply ports, deployments become long and painful when trying to project power tens of thousands of miles.

The US traded reliability for hegemony. Now that she has shredded her reliability, why would the world allow her to keep her hegemonic position?

There was always a "Yankees Go Home!" undercurrent in every nation where Americans have overseas military bases. Now the people who were opposing that anti-US sentiment, by pointing to the value Uncle Sam brought as a gaurantor of overwhelming military force against any invader, are no longer able to support US military presence with a straight face.

It will take a while for the longstanding defensive situation to be un-picked and rebuilt without US involvement; And that time will be a dangerous one. But it's endpoint (if WWIII doesn't intervene) will be a far stronger Europe, and a weakened and impoverished USA.

I suspect that the long term winners here will be Ukraine. They have the military technology and skills that will be needed for the next war, while the USA has only the technology and skills that were needed for the Cold War. The switch to exchanging EU cash for Ukrainian skills and technologies, rather than exchanging European military bases for American skills and technologies, will be a difficult transition, but massively beneficial to both EU and Ukraine.

The USA will be left with a huge debt, that once paid for a massive military (rendered obsolete by the loss of her overseas bases), which had allowed her to dominate the globe both economically and politically, but which now achieves nothing.
 
Trump's real legacy is that the US can never be trusted with a trade deal or defense treaty ever again. And perhaps the US government should never have been trusted so explicitly, but since post WWII they have accomplished some pretty favourable agreements with at least that reputation. That's not coming back.

And there is always someone worse. I learned that lesson with Howard and Bush Jnr. There will be someone worse than Trump. It's just my hope a re-alignment occurs before person X is in power in order to mitigate the damage.
 
Do you think that American relations with European countries can be restored post-Trump?

I’m not sure the relationship was up to much anyway. Europe is fucked unless they change course, away from self loathing and destruction by importing from muslim countries and their irrational commitment to net zero. Europe needs the USA more than the USA needs Europe.
 
Why the Rest of the World Thinks Americans Are Brainwashed / 17 minutes, Holy Koolaid
Summary: 7 propganda points we've fallen for.
1. US-centric education
2. Binary cold war
3. Land of the free myth
4. Military budget (modern colonalism)
5. Pledge of alligence
6. Christian nation myth
7. American exceptionalism
 
Do you think that American relations with European countries can be restored post-Trump?

I’m not sure the relationship was up to much anyway.
Sure. Now that you've broken it, you never liked it much to begin with.

Pathetic, but predictable.
Europe is fucked unless they change course, away from self loathing and destruction by importing from muslim countries and their irrational commitment to net zero.
Sure, Jan.
Europe needs the USA more than the USA needs Europe.
That was true when they were threatened by the USSR. It was believable when they felt threatened by Russia. But Russia's performane in Ukraine has shown that Europe has nothing to fear from the Russians, and really, for what else does Europe need the USA?

The USA needs somewhere to sell her military hardware, and her oil and gas, and her monopolistic (but shit) IT products. An EU with its own military capabilities, energy independence, and open source software needs what from the US?
 
The USA needs somewhere to sell her military hardware
Not to mention places overseas for military bases. The amount of rural towns dependant on the US military industrial complex is pretty staggering. There's a reason Senator Tuberville decided to shut the fuck up about abortion once Redstone Arsenal threatened to pull up its tent pegs and move interstate. And that's just one example. If America stopped sending troops overseas, unemployment would skyrocket in every red state.

Maybe that is a good thing...
 
Europeans will celebrate when Trump is gone, just like we will.
 
Europeans will celebrate when Trump is gone, just like we will.
I certainly hope so. But Europe has a long history and Europeans have long memories. They will remain mindful of the fact that in any given election cycle, Americans are capable of electing another Hitler wannabe.
It will take centuries for them to stop worrying about the next fraudulent warmongering fascist idiot rapist the ‘Murkins might elect.
Americans’ epic stupidity will be fixed in legend after the current debacle.
 
I think relations can be repaired but not restored to the same level. In one sense the reduction in the level of trust is a loss, but in another sense it will force Europe to commit more thought and resources to its defense, and spur business innovation.

I am still flabbergasted at our unwillingness to even half heartedly support Ukraine. Especially while we waste resources on Iran.

JD Vance has no charisma nor a national base. The MAGAs with whom I am familiar think he’s a joke.

Totally agree. Americans should favor countries trying to defend themselves. It's really hard to believe. Yes, having Europe not relying on America will spur business in Europe to rebuild their defensive capability. But it hurts America as we lose customers. Also agree about Vance. He needs to be stopped. But I know many magas who love Vance.
 
The problem with the OP is the question isn't whether Europe will, but why should Europe bother?

Trump is very much an ill, but he is symptom of a decaying America who has a voting base that have lost their collective partisan minds.
 
Europeans will celebrate when Trump is gone, just like we will.
I certainly hope so. But Europe has a long history and Europeans have long memories. They will remain mindful of the fact that in any given election cycle, Americans are capable of electing another Hitler wannabe.
It will take centuries for them to stop worrying about the next fraudulent warmongering fascist idiot rapist the ‘Murkins might elect.
Americans’ epic stupidity will be fixed in legend after the current debacle.
I think there is an aspect of Viktor Orban's beating that is lost on many. He was the first populist to be elected in the 21st century and he went out in spectacular fashion. People were fed up. They came out and they voted. Harbinger.

And how is that populist movement Brexit doing? From what I read, not so popular these days.

Finally, how is Trump doing with those who voted him into office? Inflation, military adventurism, iron-fisted immigration. Is this what they voted for? Not from the polling I've seen.

Funny thing about populist and their movements is the disheartening reality of getting what you wish for.

Reality is a motherfucker.

Now it may sound as if I'm going off track but add to this AI. Already I'm reading stories of graduates with degree in hand who cannot get entry level jobs in their field because of AI or LLMs (I've yet to fully differentiate between the two but I feel I'm close). I also read the trades are experiencing a surge in applicants. How much worse is it going to be for college graduates by November 2028? These are not people who are likely to cling to some populist movement. I would suggest these unemployed/underemployed college graduates are more likely to swing toward a socialist who might promise robust government support programs. The very opposite of this MAGA rugged individualism bullshit.

It could be we are seeing peak populism and might see a generation of a push to the left.
 
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