Split Trans Issues, Split from Roe v Wade is on deck

[Toni]

Why is it not the responsibility of men to quit attacking others?

It absolutely is. I support the illegalization of sexual assault 100%, no exceptions. But a girl using a restroom stall is not committing sexual assault, just because she is trans.

No one here has said she is or that she should not be using a girls restroom/changing area.

 

[Toni]

Why is it the responsibility of women to ignore our fears? Which are well founded?

Adults are responsible for both their safety and for their actions. No one should be specially condemned nor get some special pass on account of their gender.

Definitely know that I am responsible for my own safety. I’ve had to defend it often enough.

None of the guys ever faced any consequences aside from not getting to take someone.

You’d definitely not make a good woman. We’re always being told we are responsible for our own actions—and everybody else’s.

 

[Politesse]

Your suggestion is that cis females just get over it and to accept the lack of privacy …because it botany bother you personally. Or most men.

I said nothing of the sort. The world is not safe. But persecuting innocent people does not make it safer.

 

[Politesse]

I know that women’s feelings and needs do not matter to men. That is exactly why some women want to have women’s only spaces

So you would define yourself as a feminist, but a trans-exclusionary feminist perhaps?

 

[Toni]

I know that women’s feelings and needs do not matter to men. That is exactly why some women want to have women’s only spaces

So you would define yourself as a feminist, but a trans-exclusionary feminist perhaps?

Not at all

I think everyone’s feelings are importabt. Everyone’s sense of safety and actual safety is important.

I do not think k trans individuals needs/rights or feelings are more important than anyone else’s.

I have never said that trans people do not belong in whatever restroom/dressing room they feel safest. I’ve says the opposite.

But here you are acting like a Victorian telling me that women’s feelings don’t matter, we all just need to just suck it up and not make a fuss.

 

[Toni]

Your suggestion is that cis females just get over it and to accept the lack of privacy …because it botany bother you personally. Or most men.

I said nothing of the sort. The world is not safe. But persecuting innocent people does not make it safer.

Who is persecuting anyone???!

Not me. I’m advocating for the opposite

 

[Tigers!]

The existence of communal facilities is because they are cheaper. Privacy is a luxury that simply didn't exist for the average person in the past. You don't have to go all that far back to find the average child was in the room at the conception of their younger siblings.

In the more immediate past, indoor plumbing was nonexistent. When it became available, it was a luxury

Your point seems to be that the safety and well being of women is not worth funding.

Further, your point seems to be that if it is t a problem for Loren, it isn’t a problem. Such self absorption is unbecoming past age 9.

Misogyny is a deep character flaw. You should try to address it.

You're skipping over the step of showing that it's a safety issue. You're just taking it on faith.

No I’m not. That’s just a cheap shot you take when you cannot refute what the I wrote with anything like reasoning.

I am absolutely considering the perceptions and feelings and experiences of all girls and women, trans or not.

You feel afraid.

But the number of rapes by men disguised as women to gain access is very close to zero. At one point the score clearly stood at -1 (one rape of a trans person, no rapes by trans), the anti-trans crowd has so flooded the world with bad data that I can not be sure this still stands.

The number of trans who are seriously harmed is considerably greater.

You are reacting to the wrong threat.

No you are not getting it and at this point, it’s willful.

You want me to be afraid because the fact that I am angry and am insisting on the right to privacy and safety for all women scares the fuck out of YOU.

I’m not scared. I’m angry.


There is no way for anyone to know that the stranger with an exposed penis next to them in a women only space is trans. None. Zero. Trusting the wrong person is what leads to a lot of girls/women being assaulted. Cis or trans. It should not be a worry.

FFS, why cannot girls and women have one single space where they can feel secure?

There was a place/space until a few years ago.

 

[Tigers!]

That doesn’t mean that any of those people did not abhor sexual violence. They just did not want to or know how to deal with the actual fact that it involved a family member/someone they knew and not a big scary black stranger.

Like... the media portrayal of trans women in bathrooms. A terrifying, hulking rapist in a bad muumuu, leering at the passersby.

Which is why I see anti-trans hysteria as the opposite of protecting women. It's making a scapegoat of innocent, scared teenage girls, while actual rapists seldom face serious consequences.

And now every woman who is large, hairy, or wears a mumu will now feel less safe going to the bathroom.

Its almost like these "women" who back such efforts are really just judgemental assholes encouraging stochastic violence against insufficiently "feminine" women.

Sigh.

If people don't like the fact that women are indoctrinated --and for very good reason---to fear unexpected male appearing persons who are naked in women's only spots, then maybe men can start to be better about teaching each other not to violate other people's boundaries and not to touch or leer or make remarks much sexually assault other people.

And tell us exactly HOW IN HELL WE ARE SUPPOSED TO DIFFERENTIATE IN THE MOMENT BETWEEN A PERSON WHO IS TRANS AND SAFE (they are not all safe, btw) FROM SOMEONE WHO IS ACTUALLY A THREAT? In the moment. When we are extremely vulnerable, not dressed, not expecting anything other than other women.

I look forward to the answers to that question.

Quit expecting us not to react to the world around us.

Not every single problem in the world is ours to solve. Like male behavior. That's on you.

Quit attacking us and quit blaming us. We didn't start the fire

Indeed

 

[Toni]

You think that doesn’t happen to cis women? Cis straight women and girls?

Of course it does. I'm not the one pretending that trans kids are the only or most significant threat to womens' safety.

Who the hell is doing that?

The most controversial thing that I've done is to point out that for some women, being confronted by a naked person with a penis in a women's only space can be traumatizing. I would assume that if the cis woman or girl screamed, for both of them.

The reason that it can be traumatizing is because of sexual assault by men. Not because someone is trans. Not because someone is a prude. But because, if you grew up as a female, you'd know that we are conditioned from an early age to be very wary of naked penises in inappropriate contexts. Which has included until very very recently the understanding that means a naked penis in a women's only space would reasonably be considered inappropriate and a threat.

This says absolutely nothing about trans girls or women. It says a lot about rape culture in the US. And the fact that women, cis or trans, are pretty much left to defend ourselves against it.

So it should be no surprise if cis girls and women do exactly that: scream to raise the alarm. As we are conditioned to do.

Your solution is for us to give up all semblance of pretenses of privacy and have everything be universal for everyone. It sure isn't to give us any way to discern IN THE MOMENT that seems like an emergency that that person is just another woman.

Because that seems good to you. Inclusive.

It's not inclusive to women who require, for whatever reasons, more privacy. It's exclusive of such women and girls.

And you're ok with that. Because women who are religious or modest or who have been raped are all just anti-trans bigots.

 

[Emily Lake]

Teaching your children mindless fear doesn't help them.

Holy fuck, I don't even have words for the seeming misogyny in this post.

Female women are 95% of the victims of sexual violence, including rape. Males are 90% of the perpetrators. But apparently teaching girls to be aware of and chary of unknown males in spaces where they'll be naked or vulnerable is "mindless fear".

So I should be free to exclude blacks because the violent crime statistics clearly show they are a bigger threat??

As I said, "mindless". You realize most sexual wrongs are not by unknown males? The main risk is letting one's guard down around known males. And the unknown male is generally only a threat in an isolated situation. You should be cautious in an isolated situation.

I’ve had my breasts and my crotch grabbed in front of others multiple times. Sometimes when there was a small attempt to hide what was going on. Most often not. Being groped ( a form of sexual assault) by strangers or by acquaintances is not uncommon in public transportation, elevators, bars, restaurants, parties or at workplaces. Penetration also can occur and yep, people have been raped in public venues and dressing rooms

It is not rare, Loren. Not at all,

Is being afraid of men going to change this one bit?

What's important is what a person can change.

Gee... will removing all obstacles and letting men into spaces where females are naked or vulnerable going to increase the rate of predation?

 

[Toni]

I still don't see how attacking trans women for things they didn't do is supposed to teach cis men who do bad things moral accountability. Do you also believe in shooting horses while they are eating grass, to teach wolves what happens when you steal chickens? Connect the dots for me. What man has ever learned an important moral lesson from passing an anti-trans policy? If anything, it just gives them more power and less accountability, since men usually get to enforce those laws, many of which require invading a woman's privacy to enforce. If the law says "arrest little girls for peeing in what you think is the wrong room", the arresting officer not only has the opportunity but the duty to terrify a little girl asking her questions about what she did in the bathroom.

Who the fuck in this thread is attacking trans women? Who is advocating for attacking trans women?

How the fuck is suggesting that the best most inclusive solution is universal stalls with doors, including showers/changing areas anti-trans?

 

[Emily Lake]

FFS, why cannot girls and women have one single space where they can feel secure?

Because by doing so, some males will be unhappy. And male happiness is far more important to some people than female safety and dignity.

 

[Politesse]

I still don't see how attacking trans women for things they didn't do is supposed to teach cis men who do bad things moral accountability. Do you also believe in shooting horses while they are eating grass, to teach wolves what happens when you steal chickens? Connect the dots for me. What man has ever learned an important moral lesson from passing an anti-trans policy? If anything, it just gives them more power and less accountability, since men usually get to enforce those laws, many of which require invading a woman's privacy to enforce. If the law says "arrest little girls for peeing in what you think is the wrong room", the arresting officer not only has the opportunity but the duty to terrify a little girl asking her questions about what she did in the bathroom.

Who the fuck in this thread is attacking trans women? Who is advocating for attacking trans women?

Are you seriously trying to pretend that the anti-trans lobby is not one of the most powerful and active forces in contemporary American politics?

 

[Toni]

There was a place/space until a few years ago.

When was that place ever peotected by authoritarian laws that give the state sole discretion in defining who is or isn't a woman? A general location and date range will do.

Until quite recently in history, everyone in western society pretty much agreed that woman was an adult female, with a karotype that was comprised of two X chromosomes.

The definition is expanding to include trans individuals because society has changed/progressed enough to recognize their presence in our society.

What makes you think that cis women have not always and do not still suffer under the weight of male dominated authoritarianism?

Instead of addressing authoritarianism, you wish women to forego their sense of modesty and safety.

That's a pretty fucked up sense of priorities.

 

[Toni]

I still don't see how attacking trans women for things they didn't do is supposed to teach cis men who do bad things moral accountability. Do you also believe in shooting horses while they are eating grass, to teach wolves what happens when you steal chickens? Connect the dots for me. What man has ever learned an important moral lesson from passing an anti-trans policy? If anything, it just gives them more power and less accountability, since men usually get to enforce those laws, many of which require invading a woman's privacy to enforce. If the law says "arrest little girls for peeing in what you think is the wrong room", the arresting officer not only has the opportunity but the duty to terrify a little girl asking her questions about what she did in the bathroom.

Who the fuck in this thread is attacking trans women? Who is advocating for attacking trans women?

Are you seriously trying to pretend that the anti-trans lobby is not one of the most powerful and active forces in contemporary American politics?

I understand why the issue is so important to you. Most women are not in the least concerned because most of us are not anti-trans. We're not anti-male. We're anti violence. We're anti rape. We're anti anything that seeks to control women and their rights to their own bodies, their own financial and career and reproductive and life's future. Note: I am not differentiating between cis and trans women or intersex individuals. I mean women as a group just want autonomy and control over our bodies and our lives. Including privacy.

It seems that you, too, are in favor of forcing women to accept what YOU have decided is right, without explaining why it is not ok to just use the damn stalls with doors.

 

[Politesse]

Until quite recently in history, everyone in western society pretty much agreed that woman was an adult female, with a karotype that was comprised of two X chromosomes.

What years? And what countries are "Western society" to you?

 

[Emily Lake]

What do you think happens to trans women in men's bathrooms?

Hear me out on this, Poli.

Transwomen are males. Generally speaking, males are bigger and stronger than females - and that holds true irrespective of whatever gender identity any given male may or may not have. A male with a transgender identity, who thinks of themselves as a woman in a subjective internal way, remains a male - and their thoughts do not in any way reduce the physical advantages that they have as males.

If a male is attacked by another male... there's a reasonable chance that by fighting back they can avoid being seriously injured or raped.

If a male is attacked by a female, there's an extremely high chance that they can fight her off - even if she identifies as a man, she's still a female human being, and a male human being will pound for pound and inch for inch be able to overpower her.

If a female is attacked by a male, there's a much much lower chance that she can fight him off. Because pound for pound and inch for inch, males are bigger, stronger, and faster than females. Even if he identifies as a woman, he's still a male.

So if a transwoman is attacked by another male in a male single-sex space, that transwoman has a pretty decent chance to defend themself from their attacker. But if a female woman is attacked by a transwoman in a female single-sex space... that's a female being attacked by a male, and it's highly likely she's fucked - literally and figuratively.

 

[laughing dog]

I still don't see how attacking trans women for things they didn't do is supposed to teach cis men who do bad things moral accountability. Do you also believe in shooting horses while they are eating grass, to teach wolves what happens when you steal chickens? Connect the dots for me. What man has ever learned an important moral lesson from passing an anti-trans policy? If anything, it just gives them more power and less accountability, since men usually get to enforce those laws, many of which require invading a woman's privacy to enforce. If the law says "arrest little girls for peeing in what you think is the wrong room", the arresting officer not only has the opportunity but the duty to terrify a little girl asking her questions about what she did in the bathroom.

Who the fuck in this thread is attacking trans women? Who is advocating for attacking trans women?

Are you seriously trying to pretend that the anti-trans lobby is not one of the most powerful and active forces in contemporary American politics?

How is that a relevant response to Toni’s question about who in this thread?

 

[Emily Lake]

The problem is that very few businesses are actually doing that, and there is no political movement to force them to do so. What there is, is an epidemic of hate and violence targeting the most vulnerable of minorities.

Particularly vulnerable females. Females who have been facing a massive epidemic of sex-based violence, rape, and sexual assault for centuries.

Why do you seem to have no empathy for female human beings?

 

[Toni]

I still don't see how attacking trans women for things they didn't do is supposed to teach cis men who do bad things moral accountability. Do you also believe in shooting horses while they are eating grass, to teach wolves what happens when you steal chickens? Connect the dots for me. What man has ever learned an important moral lesson from passing an anti-trans policy? If anything, it just gives them more power and less accountability, since men usually get to enforce those laws, many of which require invading a woman's privacy to enforce. If the law says "arrest little girls for peeing in what you think is the wrong room", the arresting officer not only has the opportunity but the duty to terrify a little girl asking her questions about what she did in the bathroom.

Who the fuck in this thread is attacking trans women? Who is advocating for attacking trans women?

Are you seriously trying to pretend that the anti-trans lobby is not one of the most powerful and active forces in contemporary American politics?

I pay as little attention to the GOP as humanly possible. I would argue that the anti-female lobby is far more powerful and pervasive.

There is a growing movement to remove women from the work force, to remove their right to vote, to own property or have bank accounts, to control our own bodies or our own futures. Anti-trans rights are a small portion of that. Just a small portion.

All those men decrying sharia law sure do want to institute it.

Sorry if that hurts your feelings.