Immigration Issues

[Emily Lake]

Let's start with a very basic premise: Are local law enforcement and local government in sanctuary cities cooperating with federal law with respect to immigration? What is the premise of a sanctuary city in the first place?

The premise is harm reduction.

By letting illegals associate with the government without being deported you get things like licensed, insured drivers vs unlicensed people who will hit and run.

Or look at the drug business--a lack of legal recourse for misdeeds means it's much more violent than it otherwise would be.

Your logic seems to be that if we just let petty criminals committ petty crimes, it will prevent them from committing major crimes.

 

[crazyfingers]

Two week after my mom died we got a letter from Social Security demanding we send back to them her last SS payment of $105. My mom only paid into social security for about 4 years when I was in college. But they still tracked her down.

My wife took it and said she'd take care of it. If she did I don't know. But SS hasn't bothered us again.

 

[Jarhyn]

Letting people make the mistakes and interactions with the law that everyone normally has WILL in fact prevent the commission of worse crimes.

It's not even a question. Loren explained the mechanism, and frankly, it doesn't take a lot of brainpower to read the words, work through the model, and not find any controversial issues with it other than the fact that it leads away from a naive intuition.

People who do not need to fear having their entire life ruined, uprooted, and possibly permanently destabilized into only having "criminal" alternatives from any given interaction with law enforcement WILL be much more likely to submit to having an interaction with law enforcement.

Pretty much everyone everywhere in the US who has ever driven more than a year or two has had an interaction or situation which would lead to police contact if they were not to try to escape the police or be gone before the police showed up.

 

[ZiprHead]

Two week after my mom died we got a letter from Social Security demanding we send back to them her last SS payment of $105. My mom only paid into social security for about 4 years when I was in college. But they still tracked her down.

My wife took it and said she'd take care of it. If she did I don't know. But SS hasn't bothered us again.

Funeral directors are required to report deaths of SS recipients to the feds.

Of course that doesn't stop the guy hiding mom's dead body in the back room but that's a pretty rare occurrence and tends to stink up the house.

 

[Toni]

Two week after my mom died we got a letter from Social Security demanding we send back to them her last SS payment of $105. My mom only paid into social security for about 4 years when I was in college. But they still tracked her down.

My wife took it and said she'd take care of it. If she did I don't know. But SS hasn't bothered us again.

Funeral directors are required to report deaths of SS recipients to the feds.

Of course that doesn't stop the guy hiding mom's dead body in the back room but that's a pretty rare occurrence and tends to stink up the house.

Funny ( not in the haha way) you mentioned that. A bunch of years ago, it that far from where I live, it was discovered that a guy had his mother, who had died of apparent t natural causes, in a chest freezer and had been collecting her SS for years. Not sure how that worked —maybe he was on her bank accounts.

But that scenario does happen.

 

[thebeave]

Two week after my mom died we got a letter from Social Security demanding we send back to them her last SS payment of $105. My mom only paid into social security for about 4 years when I was in college. But they still tracked her down.

My wife took it and said she'd take care of it. If she did I don't know. But SS hasn't bothered us again.

Funeral directors are required to report deaths of SS recipients to the feds.

Of course that doesn't stop the guy hiding mom's dead body in the back room but that's a pretty rare occurrence and tends to stink up the house.

A better solution is to just bury the body(s) in the backyard, like this lady did. It was a big story in California after she was busted. You just can't trust those sweet old ladies!:

Dorothea Puente

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Deaths of detainees, sure. Deaths of people released from detention? Not sure why you'd want that.

So they can't avoid counting deaths by releasing them just before they die.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If they are in the SS system they are most likely here legally which means they are targeting legal immigrants.

Could be overstays from temporary permission.

Taxpayer ID numbers are actually pretty easy to obtain. And they are the same as Social Security numbers except they don't qualify for work permission.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Zomg!!! Right wingers are BURNING DOWN CITIES!!!!11

Violent anti-immigration protests erupt in Belfast after brutal stabbing attack

Despite calls for calm, masked anti-immigration protesters in Belfast set a bus, vehicles and some homes on fire in what one politician called "a race-based pogrom."

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Let's start with a very basic premise: Are local law enforcement and local government in sanctuary cities cooperating with federal law with respect to immigration? What is the premise of a sanctuary city in the first place?

The premise is harm reduction.

By letting illegals associate with the government without being deported you get things like licensed, insured drivers vs unlicensed people who will hit and run.

Or look at the drug business--a lack of legal recourse for misdeeds means it's much more violent than it otherwise would be.

Your logic seems to be that if we just let petty criminals committ petty crimes, it will prevent them from committing major crimes.

No, Loren didn't say anything remotely like that.

What he said is if you allow admittedly undocumented folks (that we are incapable of dismissing from the country due to the reality of how the world works) to function within the society, they are LESS LIKELY to create problems for others because they are allowed to contribute within the system.

We have three options:

1. Deport all undocumented people
   1. We've seen this isn't remotely possible even when ICE is allowed to take off the gloves.
2. Ignore that there are undocumented people in the US that we can't readily remove and isolate their access to resources and legal means of habitation in the US
   1. This comes with a number legal consequences that negatively affect US Citizens as Loren indicated
3. Act like adults, accept that there are a lot of undocumented people in the US who we can't readily deport. People that if given the opportunity and the means will positively contribute to society.
   1. US gain economic and legal benefits.

There is no perfect solution, but the third is the only remotely pragmatic one. Heck, it was good enough in the 80s when Reagan was President.

The other two options require a great deal of willful ignorance and cause US citizens problems. And no, stubborn pride doesn't count as a benefit for digging in the heels and being "tough on crime".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If they are in the SS system they are most likely here legally which means they are targeting legal immigrants.

That's certainly possible.

It might also be worth considering that SS isn't as good at maintaining accurate death information as it should be, and identity theft using the SSNs of people who are deceased is a pretty common approach for fraud. That includes dead SSNs being used by people here illegally so they can provide it for employment.

After Death "Ghosting" Scam

Learn about form of identity theft called "ghosting" where identity thieves use personal information of the deceased.

dos.ny.gov

Identity Theft and the Climate of Immigration - Helping Protect Your Workforce

A growing fear of immigration enforcement could lead to an increase in the utilization of fraudulent identities. Learn what employers should know and what they can do to be proactive.

workforce.equifax.com

Is there any lie from the reich that you won't just blindly accept?

Did you not notice that the people involved are showing up at Social Security offices (which they conveniently got rid of a lot of not too long ago) because they are alive. These aren't dead people, this is extrajudicial punishment.

And false killing does nothing about identity theft.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Two week after my mom died we got a letter from Social Security demanding we send back to them her last SS payment of $105. My mom only paid into social security for about 4 years when I was in college. But they still tracked her down.

My wife took it and said she'd take care of it. If she did I don't know. But SS hasn't bothered us again.

Funeral directors are required to report deaths of SS recipients to the feds.

Of course that doesn't stop the guy hiding mom's dead body in the back room but that's a pretty rare occurrence and tends to stink up the house.

A better solution is to just bury the body(s) in the backyard, like this lady did. It was a big story in California after she was busted. You just can't trust those sweet old ladies!:

Dorothea Puente

Why bury? That takes time and you need to find a place to put a hole.

In the clatter of the weight room, Johnson typed “Return to Nature” into his cellphone. Dozens of news reports appeared, details popping out in a blur.

Hundreds of bodies stacked on top of each other. Inches of body decomposition fluid. Swarms of bugs. Investigators traumatized. Governor declares state of emergency.

 

[thebeave]

Two week after my mom died we got a letter from Social Security demanding we send back to them her last SS payment of $105. My mom only paid into social security for about 4 years when I was in college. But they still tracked her down.

My wife took it and said she'd take care of it. If she did I don't know. But SS hasn't bothered us again.

Funeral directors are required to report deaths of SS recipients to the feds.

Of course that doesn't stop the guy hiding mom's dead body in the back room but that's a pretty rare occurrence and tends to stink up the house.

A better solution is to just bury the body(s) in the backyard, like this lady did. It was a big story in California after she was busted. You just can't trust those sweet old ladies!:

Dorothea Puente

Why bury? That takes time and you need to find a place to put a hole.

In the clatter of the weight room, Johnson typed “Return to Nature” into his cellphone. Dozens of news reports appeared, details popping out in a blur.

Hundreds of bodies stacked on top of each other. Inches of body decomposition fluid. Swarms of bugs. Investigators traumatized. Governor declares state of emergency.

Ugh. Those people need to spend a long time in jail. I can't imagine being tasked to be on the "cleanup crew" at that warehouse. Its one thing to have to clean up a body that has decomposed for a few days, but hundreds that have been decomposing for years?

 

[scombrid]

If they are in the SS system they are most likely here legally which means they are targeting legal immigrants.

That's certainly possible.

It might also be worth considering that SS isn't as good at maintaining accurate death information as it should be, and identity theft using the SSNs of people who are deceased is a pretty common approach for fraud. That includes dead SSNs being used by people here illegally so they can provide it for employment.

After Death "Ghosting" Scam

Learn about form of identity theft called "ghosting" where identity thieves use personal information of the deceased.

dos.ny.gov

Identity Theft and the Climate of Immigration - Helping Protect Your Workforce

A growing fear of immigration enforcement could lead to an increase in the utilization of fraudulent identities. Learn what employers should know and what they can do to be proactive.

workforce.equifax.com

DOGE/ICE wasn’t addressing that issue by inserting fake death dates into the master death file to administratively kill people. It was/is adulterating the master death file for its 2025 goals.

 

[laughing dog]

Deaths of detainees, sure. Deaths of people released from detention? Not sure why you'd want that.

To tie post release deaths being tied to their (mis?)treatment while incarcerated.

 

[Elixir]

Deaths of detainees, sure. Deaths of people released from detention? Not sure why you'd want that.

To tie post release deaths being tied to their (mis?)treatment while incarcerated.

Huh? You mean the deaths they cause in prisons, the people they torture and murder while incarcerated, are insufficient cause for reprisals? I’m with Ems on this one; abolish ICE and lock up the abusers, and we won’t have to worry about aftershocks so much.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Let's start with a very basic premise: Are local law enforcement and local government in sanctuary cities cooperating with federal law with respect to immigration? What is the premise of a sanctuary city in the first place?

The premise is harm reduction.

By letting illegals associate with the government without being deported you get things like licensed, insured drivers vs unlicensed people who will hit and run.

Or look at the drug business--a lack of legal recourse for misdeeds means it's much more violent than it otherwise would be.

Your logic seems to be that if we just let petty criminals committ petty crimes, it will prevent them from committing major crimes.

I look at how many victims are harmed. I see less harm in sanctuary cities.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Two week after my mom died we got a letter from Social Security demanding we send back to them her last SS payment of $105. My mom only paid into social security for about 4 years when I was in college. But they still tracked her down.

My wife took it and said she'd take care of it. If she did I don't know. But SS hasn't bothered us again.

Normal, with my mother it was direct deposit, they simply clawed it back.

You get the check for the coming month in anticipation of being qualified to receive it. You die, you're no longer qualified, whatever payment was made for the days you were dead gets reclaimed.

Works both ways--my wife is still working, every year she gets a letter from them correcting her payment based on last year's income being added and it's paid retroactive to the start of the year.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Two week after my mom died we got a letter from Social Security demanding we send back to them her last SS payment of $105. My mom only paid into social security for about 4 years when I was in college. But they still tracked her down.

My wife took it and said she'd take care of it. If she did I don't know. But SS hasn't bothered us again.

Funeral directors are required to report deaths of SS recipients to the feds.

Of course that doesn't stop the guy hiding mom's dead body in the back room but that's a pretty rare occurrence and tends to stink up the house.

Actually, seems to be something of a thing in Japan. Lots of the really old people seem to not actually exist anymore.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, Loren didn't say anything remotely like that.

What he said is if you allow admittedly undocumented folks (that we are incapable of dismissing from the country due to the reality of how the world works) to function within the society, they are LESS LIKELY to create problems for others because they are allowed to contribute within the system.

We have three options:

1. Deport all undocumented people
   1. We've seen this isn't remotely possible even when ICE is allowed to take off the gloves.
2. Ignore that there are undocumented people in the US that we can't readily remove and isolate their access to resources and legal means of habitation in the US
   1. This comes with a number legal consequences that negatively affect US Citizens as Loren indicated
3. Act like adults, accept that there are a lot of undocumented people in the US who we can't readily deport. People that if given the opportunity and the means will positively contribute to society.
   1. US gain economic and legal benefits.

There is no perfect solution, but the third is the only remotely pragmatic one. Heck, it was good enough in the 80s when Reagan was President.

The other two options require a great deal of willful ignorance and cause US citizens problems. And no, stubborn pride doesn't count as a benefit for digging in the heels and being "tough on crime".

Exactly. Most things, I'm going to count the harms caused by path A and the harms caused by path B and select whichever path has less harm. The purpose of law is to minimize harms, I consider laws which do not minimize harms to be highly suspect.