Split Trans Issues, Split from Roe v Wade is on deck

[Toni]

What I...

...have been trying to explain is that IN THAT MOMENT women [do not] need something to indicate that the person before them with an exposed naked penis [genitals] is...

..Anything other than someone exposing their genitals inappropriately so as to know that they are a pervert and sex offender.

Let me get this straight, just so we're crystal fucking clear.

You believe that a full grown adult male of the human species, with a sex offender record for serious offenses, should be allowed by law to go into the female showers and changing rooms at the local community pool and watch little girls change. And the girls and their parents should have no say about that at all... as long as he doesn't actually get his dick out.

Do you not see any potential problems with that?

If... as a justification for why adult males with fully intact genitals should be allowed by law to look at naked girls if those males say they're trans.

Bless your heart, it most certainly does.
IDo you have a relevant point or are you just virtue signaling?

Yes.
I'm pointing out that your casual dismissal of women's concerns is the bigotry going on here.
Tom

Which concerns of women do you think I dismissed? I ask, because to my knowledge, you are vastly mistaken.

You have suggested talking to the person who concerns you to alleviate concerns.

It’s been pointed out that in a women’s shower it locker room is not the place to do that when the concerning individual has a male body that is naked.

More than once.

Response from you: crickets.

That does not mean I dismissed women's concerns. My observation that got this going was in post 486 and it was in response to a general question. And I never claimed it was foolproof.

As for lockerroom/shower facilities, I would think that a sincere emotionally transwoman would be aware and sensitive about this issue, and would avoid such confrontations. Insincere or emotionally immature transwoman should be removed as quickly as possible.

This sounds like an idea that is better in theory than application. I think there are a couple flaws to this:

1) Firstly, the trouble is the threshold to the immature. That it has to be managed at all is going to raise a problem, because once someone is up to no good, then that would require intervention, at which point, hasn't the system already failed? Currently, nothing stops this from occurring now, but the propensity for it to be possible will likely increase. Zero tolerance won't work because when males do something "it was just a joke, why does he have to sign up as a sex offender now" will push against it... oddly by some of the same people that insist transgenders not be allowed in the women's locker room.

2) Women in the locker room should be going about doing locker room things, not self-policing, right? There is no viable threshold for a woman to make a on the fly call on whether that person should be in there. In a perfect world, it should be as simple as 'if they are here, they should be here'. But a woman isn't going to know. This means how do you manage the doubt? The uncertainty, the uncomfortableness? This isn't a sort of 'get over it' thing. It is instinctual. I know with my daughter, one day she didn't care, then one day she cared... she cared a lot! Personally, I don't think a woman needs to have suffered trauma to be allowed a right to feel secure in such a space.

Hopefully we can move past this, but we aren't even to the stage of people accepting transgenders exist.

We cannot wait for everyone. Some people believe the earth is flat or that humans and dinosaurs coexisted and that Trump is a good, Christian man.

Yes, it is instinctual. It has nothing to do with hating or fearing men or trans people. It has to do with the desire for modesty, privacy and safety. Instinctual, yes, but too often informed by experience.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why should women have to put up with this in their locker rooms etc.

A transgender woman who masturbated in front of shocked staff at a hospital has been locked up.
Former soldier Paula Stanton, aged 62, of Severn Avenue, Barry committed the sex act at the University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff. The Falklands War veteran had been taken there by ambulance for a mental health assessment over concerns over a threat to self-harm.
Lewis Ball, prosecuting, said: “The defendant put her hands down her leggings to the groin area. Staff could see that she had her penis in her hand and that her hand was moving up and down. This was happening on and off."

News

"she had her penis in her hand"

A lot of people who are seriously mentally ill or in a mental health crisis masturbate in front of others. This makes her no different than many other people who are suffering from severe mental illness/crisis.

It's a he, not a her.

Do "It's" get a pronoun? "It's" are things, not people. With England losing the Battle of Hastings, long story short... we (English speakers) don't gender "It's".

 

[TomC]

Yes, it is instinctual. It has nothing to do with hating or fearing men or trans people. It has to do with the desire for modesty, privacy and safety. Instinctual, yes, but too often informed by experience.

So much this!
People fall across a huge spectrum on this subject. I'm way out at one end. Personally, I am a large, gay, male, monogamous nudist. I couldn't care less who's in the facility with me. My mom was the opposite end. She was a very straight laced, church lady, protective mother of four daughters.
I'm sure that if a male person appeared in the women's room she wouldn't bother with discussion or ID check. She'd shriek and hit him with her massive purse, particularly if she had kids with her. I suspect that she had someone like Toni's hypothetical uncle in her youth.
That's just how it is and I don't think her unreasonable.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why should women have to put up with this in their locker rooms etc.

A transgender woman who masturbated in front of shocked staff at a hospital has been locked up.
Former soldier Paula Stanton, aged 62, of Severn Avenue, Barry committed the sex act at the University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff. The Falklands War veteran had been taken there by ambulance for a mental health assessment over concerns over a threat to self-harm.
Lewis Ball, prosecuting, said: “The defendant put her hands down her leggings to the groin area. Staff could see that she had her penis in her hand and that her hand was moving up and down. This was happening on and off."

News

"she had her penis in her hand"

A lot of people who are seriously mentally ill or in a mental health crisis masturbate in front of others. This makes her no different than many other people who are suffering from severe mental illness/crisis.

It's a he, not a her.

Do "It's" get a pronoun? "It's" are things, not people. With England losing the Battle of Hastings, long story short... we (English speakers) don't gender "It's".

Funny that TSwizzle rolls the eyes to their bigoted remark being called out. Hate/intolerance is very definitely a part of this equation for some people in the chatroom.

 

[Toni]

Why should women have to put up with this in their locker rooms etc.

A transgender woman who masturbated in front of shocked staff at a hospital has been locked up.
Former soldier Paula Stanton, aged 62, of Severn Avenue, Barry committed the sex act at the University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff. The Falklands War veteran had been taken there by ambulance for a mental health assessment over concerns over a threat to self-harm.
Lewis Ball, prosecuting, said: “The defendant put her hands down her leggings to the groin area. Staff could see that she had her penis in her hand and that her hand was moving up and down. This was happening on and off."

News

"she had her penis in her hand"

A lot of people who are seriously mentally ill or in a mental health crisis masturbate in front of others. This makes her no different than many other people who are suffering from severe mental illness/crisis.

It's a he, not a her.

Do "It's" get a pronoun? "It's" are things, not people. With England losing the Battle of Hastings, long story short... we (English speakers) don't gender "It's".

Funny that TSwizzle rolls the eyes to their bigoted remark being called out. Hate/intolerance is very definitely a part of this equation for some people in the chatroom.

It’s as close to making a thoughtful comment as they get so…..

 

[Elixir]

You are as delusional as the reporter. It's a he, not a her.

Your strident insistence on pronouns, places you firmly in the same category as the trannies with whom you would argue.

 

[TSwizzle]

Why should women have to put up with this in their locker rooms etc.

A transgender woman who masturbated in front of shocked staff at a hospital has been locked up.
Former soldier Paula Stanton, aged 62, of Severn Avenue, Barry committed the sex act at the University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff. The Falklands War veteran had been taken there by ambulance for a mental health assessment over concerns over a threat to self-harm.
Lewis Ball, prosecuting, said: “The defendant put her hands down her leggings to the groin area. Staff could see that she had her penis in her hand and that her hand was moving up and down. This was happening on and off."

News

"she had her penis in her hand"

A lot of people who are seriously mentally ill or in a mental health crisis masturbate in front of others. This makes her no different than many other people who are suffering from severe mental illness/crisis.

It's a he, not a her.

Do "It's" get a pronoun? "It's" are things, not people. With England losing the Battle of Hastings, long story short... we (English speakers) don't gender "It's".

Funny that TSwizzle rolls the eyes to their bigoted remark being called out. Hate/intolerance is very definitely a part of this equation for some people in the chatroom.

Sure, Jan.

 

[Toni]

Why should women have to put up with this in their locker rooms etc.

A transgender woman who masturbated in front of shocked staff at a hospital has been locked up.
Former soldier Paula Stanton, aged 62, of Severn Avenue, Barry committed the sex act at the University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff. The Falklands War veteran had been taken there by ambulance for a mental health assessment over concerns over a threat to self-harm.
Lewis Ball, prosecuting, said: “The defendant put her hands down her leggings to the groin area. Staff could see that she had her penis in her hand and that her hand was moving up and down. This was happening on and off."

News

"she had her penis in her hand"

A lot of people who are seriously mentally ill or in a mental health crisis masturbate in front of others. This makes her no different than many other people who are suffering from severe mental illness/crisis.

It's a he, not a her.

Do "It's" get a pronoun? "It's" are things, not people. With England losing the Battle of Hastings, long story short... we (English speakers) don't gender "It's".

Funny that TSwizzle rolls the eyes to their bigoted remark being called out. Hate/intolerance is very definitely a part of this equation for some people in the chatroom.

Sure, Jan.

Classic! So insightful!

 

[southernhybrid]

Why should women have to put up with this in their locker rooms etc.

A transgender woman who masturbated in front of shocked staff at a hospital has been locked up.
Former soldier Paula Stanton, aged 62, of Severn Avenue, Barry committed the sex act at the University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff. The Falklands War veteran had been taken there by ambulance for a mental health assessment over concerns over a threat to self-harm.
Lewis Ball, prosecuting, said: “The defendant put her hands down her leggings to the groin area. Staff could see that she had her penis in her hand and that her hand was moving up and down. This was happening on and off."

News

"she had her penis in her hand"

A lot of people who are seriously mentally ill or in a mental health crisis masturbate in front of others. This makes her no different than many other people who are suffering from severe mental illness/crisis.

It's a he, not a her.

Do "It's" get a pronoun? "It's" are things, not people. With England losing the Battle of Hastings, long story short... we (English speakers) don't gender "It's".

Funny that TSwizzle rolls the eyes to their bigoted remark being called out. Hate/intolerance is very definitely a part of this equation for some people in the chatroom.

Sure, Jan.

Classic! So insightful!

They seem to suffer from an inability to make intelligent replies but they do know how to Let's see if I get one for that. Maybe we should have a contest to see who gets the most s. Ok. I've had enough of this way too long thread which will solve nothing. Amirite?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why should women have to put up with this in their locker rooms etc.

A transgender woman who masturbated in front of shocked staff at a hospital has been locked up.
Former soldier Paula Stanton, aged 62, of Severn Avenue, Barry committed the sex act at the University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff. The Falklands War veteran had been taken there by ambulance for a mental health assessment over concerns over a threat to self-harm.
Lewis Ball, prosecuting, said: “The defendant put her hands down her leggings to the groin area. Staff could see that she had her penis in her hand and that her hand was moving up and down. This was happening on and off."

News

"she had her penis in her hand"

A lot of people who are seriously mentally ill or in a mental health crisis masturbate in front of others. This makes her no different than many other people who are suffering from severe mental illness/crisis.

It's a he, not a her.

Do "It's" get a pronoun? "It's" are things, not people. With England losing the Battle of Hastings, long story short... we (English speakers) don't gender "It's".

Funny that TSwizzle rolls the eyes to their bigoted remark being called out. Hate/intolerance is very definitely a part of this equation for some people in the chatroom.

Sure, Jan.

Who do you think you are kidding? Are you suggesting that you use the word "It" to describe people all the time? Like Buffalo Bill in Silence of the Lambs? Or are you just saying you are using the term "It" to merely mock the transgenders and it isn't bigoted. Or are you suggesting that I am overexaggerating the impact of the aristrocracy in England speaking French as a result of the loss in the Battle of Hastings and it's impact on the English language?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why should women have to put up with this in their locker rooms etc.

A transgender woman who masturbated in front of shocked staff at a hospital has been locked up.
Former soldier Paula Stanton, aged 62, of Severn Avenue, Barry committed the sex act at the University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff. The Falklands War veteran had been taken there by ambulance for a mental health assessment over concerns over a threat to self-harm.
Lewis Ball, prosecuting, said: “The defendant put her hands down her leggings to the groin area. Staff could see that she had her penis in her hand and that her hand was moving up and down. This was happening on and off."

News

"she had her penis in her hand"

A lot of people who are seriously mentally ill or in a mental health crisis masturbate in front of others. This makes her no different than many other people who are suffering from severe mental illness/crisis.

It's a he, not a her.

Do "It's" get a pronoun? "It's" are things, not people. With England losing the Battle of Hastings, long story short... we (English speakers) don't gender "It's".

Funny that TSwizzle rolls the eyes to their bigoted remark being called out. Hate/intolerance is very definitely a part of this equation for some people in the chatroom.

Sure, Jan.

Classic! So insightful!

They seem to suffer from an inability to make intelligent replies but they do know how to Let's see if I get one for that. Maybe we should have a contest to see who gets the most s. Ok. I've had enough of this way too long thread which will solve nothing. Amirite?

I think RayJ has enough to do as it is.

 

[Bomb#20]

"she had her penis in her hand"

A lot of people who are seriously mentally ill or in a mental health crisis masturbate in front of others. This makes her no different than many other people who are suffering from severe mental illness/crisis.

It's a he, not a her.

That would be "This makes he no different than many other people who are suffering from severe mental illness/crisis.". Is that West Hollywood dialect?

Do "It's" get a pronoun? "It's" are things, not people.

Prescriptivists. Q: "Who's that at the door?" A: "It's the pizza delivery guy."

With England losing the Battle of Hastings, long story short... we (English speakers) don't gender "It's".

And yet the French do. One of the little ironies of history. Herstory? Itstory?

 

[Elixir]

Prescriptivists. Q: "Who's that at the door?" A: "It's the pizza delivery guy."

 

[Emily Lake]

Why does talking seem “dismissive “?

It's not talking that's dismissive. It's expecting that women should set aside every ounce of common sense and safety, and intentionally place ourselves at risk from a strange male just so we don't possibly maybe hurt his feelings. It's dismissive to suggest that women in areas where we're naked or vulnerable should NOT have a normal human reaction to a strange man being there, and instead we should refrain from the actions that keep us safe so that we can make sure he feels good about himself.

And what are the alternatives in your view if transwomen are permitted in those spaces?

Again... for your consideration... what's the problem with stopping to have a deep conversation with a strange man in a dark parking garage when a woman is there all alone? Especially since men are permitted there, right?

The alternative, in my mind, is to NOT permit males of any sort into female intimate spaces. Then we don't have to take the risk at all, and we aren't expected to strike up a get-to-know-you chat with someone who very well might be up to no good.

 

[laughing dog]

And what are the alternatives in your view if transwomen are permitted in those spaces?

Again... for your consideration... what's the problem with stopping to have a deep conversation with a strange man in a dark parking garage when a woman is there all alone? Especially since men are permitted there, right?

The alternative, in my mind, is to NOT permit males of any sort into female intimate spaces. Then we don't have to take the risk at all, and we aren't expected to strike up a get-to-know-you chat with someone who very well might be up to no good.

That is literally non-responsive to my question.

 

[Bomb#20]

View attachment 54557

In all fairness to Jimmy, Trump Personhood is still an unsettled question.

 

[Emily Lake]

And, since those who are over 13, who identify as trans is about 1%, I doubt many of us will even meet a trans person. AfaIk, I've only met one.

1% is 1 in 100 people. I'm guessing you know far more than 100 people, and that you interact with more than that every week. Perhaps not any more - I expect that when I finally eventually retire I'll be able to avoid humans to the greatest extent feasible. But I still run into probably 50 people each time I go to the grocery store.

I know a couple dozen. Some are great, some are not at all great. Some are merely awkward, some very few pass arguably well, and some are straight-up creepy. There are five transwomen and at least one transman at my company. Most of them are just fine, but one of the transwomen gives off a very, very, very creepy vibe.

But despite the claim that it's innate and genetically-prompted... it's not evenly spread. It clusters... and transgendered identification just happens to cluster in areas that are invested in really leaning in and celebrating trans. It's extraordinarily unlikely that one third of the girls in my goddaughter's class all found their true innate ideI'

Shit. My post suddenly disappeared. Am I the only one that happens to, fairly frequently lately? Anyway.....all kinds of people put off "creepy vibes" whatever you mean by that. In my experience, straight white men win for putting off creepy vibes, not all, but compared to any other group, statistically speaking of course. Too many of them think they can say inappropriate things to women or give us the creepy stare. I'm soon to be 77 and every now and then some white man will make inappropriate remarks to me. I find that to be a bit creepy but as long as they are otherwise harmless, I don't let it bother me. Men will be men.

You're right - men will be men. That doesn't change when they put on traditionally female attire and make-up. Most men are not creepy, some are very creepy. In this instance... it's a guy who is obviously male in physique, stance, and behavior. His makeup is egregiously overdone, worse than Tammy Faye Bakker level of clownish. His clothing is right at the edge of acceptability in a work setting, with very short tight skirts, fishnets, very high platform heels, extremely low-cut tight tops, and I'm about 95% certain that he has on rubber boob fetish gear (but at least they're not absurdly ginormous boobs, so there's that). He talks in an exaggerated and very performative high voice, with a very "little girl" cadence and bits of baby-talk that he seems to think is funny. And he tends to stand too close to female employees in a way that feels intimidating since he's around 6 feet tall. He doesn't stand that close to men, he doesn't use the baby talk with men. It's extremely off-putting.

While the other handful of trans people at work all seem like fairly normal folks, this one does not. I'm pretty sure he's acting out his sexual fetish at work on a regular basis... but because he's "trans" we are all expected to put up with it. I'm just happy he works on a different floor than me, and I don't have to share a restroom with him.

Perhaps trans and gay people for that matter, feel more comfortable coming out if they live in large liberal urban areas, compared to small conservative towns or rural areas. I only have a couple of gay friends in my small conservative city and since Trump returned to office, they feel very uncomfortable. So, I doubt the clusters that you've mention are likely based on whether or not these minority groups will be accepted or condemned by the areas where they live.

I find it extraordinarily unlikely that young teen girls who all started identifying as transboys within about a two year span were Trump's fault, given that this was nearly a decade ago. These aren't girls whose families had just recently moved there, they were almost all girls who had lived there for their entire life. The notion that 1/3 of teen girls are innately transgender doesn't seem plausible.

 

[Emily Lake]

Hopefully we can move past this, but we aren't even to the stage of people accepting transgenders exist.

Meh. People who have (or claim to have) transgender identities certainly do exist. I've met them, they are in fact real people. They're not figments of my imagination.

Whether or not gender identity is a genuine somatic characteristic is a different question. Is a psychological belief a real thing when it's based solely on things that aren't real? It's akin to asking whether or not a soul is real - some people will swear to their grave that souls are 100% real, some of us not so much. Souls are a fine notion, and a useful convention for a lot of discussions, but I'm far less convinced that they're an independent thing that exists on its own.

When some people say "transgender doesn't exist", however, they're saying neither of the above. They're saying that nobody is actually in the wrong body - mind-body duality isn't real. They're saying that a women who says she has a gender identity of man is not, in actuality, a man - she remains a woman because she is of the female sex. Gender identity doesn't supplant or override the objective and verifiable reality of somatic sex. In short, they're saying that transwomen are NOT women - they're transwomen. In the actual real world, they are men. They are, every single one of them, a male of the human species who has some degree of affinity for femininity. For some that's clothing and a desire to physically mimic the features of females as much as they can - to the extent of significant cosmetic surgery that allows them to pass as much as possible. For some, however, that's behavioral and psychological characteristics that they - as men - think that women ought to have. It's not a monolith by any means, there's considerable variation among them in terms of motivation, behavior, presentation, etc.

Some are harmless, sure. Some genuinely believe they have the spirit of a female inside a male body. Some of them are enacting sexual fantasies of what they wish womanhood were. And some are merely opportunistic sexual predators who have used the beneficence of society to gain access to women and girls without consent in order to indulge their voyeuristic or exhibitionistic fantasies without consequence.

We can't reasonable determine which are which with any degree of accuracy. But most of the time we can absolutely tell that they're male.

 

[Emily Lake]

Who do you think you are kidding? Are you suggesting that you use the word "It" to describe people all the time? Like Buffalo Bill in Silence of the Lambs? Or are you just saying you are using the term "It" to merely mock the transgenders and it isn't bigoted. Or are you suggesting that I am overexaggerating the impact of the aristrocracy in England speaking French as a result of the loss in the Battle of Hastings and it's impact on the English language?

I know youse all love to use Tswizzle as the local punching bag and all, and granted he often brings it on himself.

But in this case, his comment was a relatively common convention of the english language. The "it" in question wasn't identifying the person, it was identifying the object of the sentence.

If a person says "Hi Nurse Johnson", and the individual to whom the comment was directed responds with "it's Doctor, actually", nobody gets their skivvies in a bunch about it. Because we all understand that the "it" is a reference to the part of the sentence being corrected. That's what Tswizzle did. He didn't refer to the individual person as "it", he referred to the part of the sentence being challenged.

 

[Emily Lake]

And what are the alternatives in your view if transwomen are permitted in those spaces?

Again... for your consideration... what's the problem with stopping to have a deep conversation with a strange man in a dark parking garage when a woman is there all alone? Especially since men are permitted there, right?

The alternative, in my mind, is to NOT permit males of any sort into female intimate spaces. Then we don't have to take the risk at all, and we aren't expected to strike up a get-to-know-you chat with someone who very well might be up to no good.

That is literally non-responsive to my question.

Your question presupposes that women should be expected to have our rights overridden by the desire of some men to be affirmed and validated as something they categorically are not.

The actual alternative in my view is that a whole lot of women will end up being excluded from full participation in society. When the female single-sex space becomes a mixed-sex space, a lot of women will stop using them.