Honest talk about the cost of being ugly

[DrZoidberg]

The porn industry today is very similar to the film industry in general. A few players make lots of money. 99% of everyone in the industry struggle to pay basic bills.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Reminds me of that story of an Australian beetle that was going extinct because the males prefered trying to mate with a specific kind of beer bottle, that mimicked something found in beetle females, and was the most optimised version of it. So they ditched the girls and headed for the bottles.

Yeah, nah, they were just copying the behaviour of all the rest of the Aussie males.

Yipes... my condolences to the

Here’s a weird thing about people. Most of us are not 9’s or 10’s or even 1’s or 2’s — for those of us who adhere to these juvenile, nonsensical indices. Most of us are somewhere in the middle, roughly,

Yet people get together and make more people, and even love each into old age when they look wrinkled and often grotesque.

Lincoln famously said, “The good lord must have loved the common-LOOKING people, since he made so many of them.” The “looking” part is commonly omitted from the “common” quote.

During one of his 1858 debates with Steven Douglas, Lincoln, whom Douglas had accused of being two-faced, responded with his customary wit: “If I had another face, do you think I’d be wearing this one?”

I think what you and Southern Hybrid are confused about is stuff you are projecting onto what he's saying.

He's not talking about human worth. He's not saying that we should care about looks. He's acknowleging that its a thing and that it affects us. Pretending that it doesn't isn't helping. Its like denying racism exists because we don't like racism. It doesn't help.

FYI, women are rarely attracted to bodybuilders.

Indeed, one thing women hate are muscles. That is why women only try to pick guys up at ComicCons.

I think the question to ask, assuming "women are rarely attracted to bodybuilders" is accurate, is why they are not. It most likely isn't looks that are the issue, which is apparently what you are thinking it is about.

Of course, "looks matter". What the response generally is, is that "looks aren't all that matters". Charisma, attitude, empathy are going to come into play, much like apathy, narcissism, and vanity can as well.

That's not why they do it. They are vain. But its not about attracting the opposite gender for sex or love. It has the opposite effect.

You almost appear to grasp it in the thread. It wouldn't be looks that are the problem, but the vanity.

Women like a muscular build, but not to the extreme of a body builder. The reason I've heard is that the big muscles implies the guy is excessively vain and self absorbed.

Like I said... not about looks. The video sounds like it is a "why it is them and not me" self gratification.

I'd say that's pure projection on your part.

What in the heck am I projecting?

Why it is them and not me.

I didn't get that vibe at all from the video

So I'm projecting it is them and not me? Good luck establishing that.

 

[steve_bank]

I may be wrong, I though Z said in the past he had a trans significant other.

But then sometimes he sounds like an opinionated stereotyping conservative.

 

[Elixir]

sometimes he sounds like an opinionated stereotyping conservative

I think that’s a thing - trying to sound like an opinionated stereotyping conservative. I can almost hear the cadence.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I may be wrong, I though Z said in the past he had a trans significant other.

Intersex. Not trans. Its similar. But their transition starts at birth and is not optional.

I've had many trans lovers. I'm currently seeing a trans couple, where both are trans.

I'm very much in the liberal progressive queer environment. Its very much my tribe.

But then sometimes he sounds like an opinionated stereotyping conservative.

10 years ago, the post modern gender queer feminist theory ideology went so extreme, and became so intollerant, it just stopped functioning as an intellectual community that could discuss things. It became propaganda. I just went silent in my community.

This forum was for a long time the one place that I felt I could have honest conversations. The intellectual intolerance of my community was pretty suffocating. Which I am sure was reflected in my posts.

But woke is dead now, and things in my community are pretty much back to normal. Its again possible to have honest and open conversations in my community without it creating drama. So its all good now.

Woke, was a weird time, while it lasted

Tonight I'm going to a queer photo exhibition with the subtitle.

"The original story of Adam and Eve. There was no Adam, and the serpent with Eve were two lesbians"

I'm 100% sure there will be nudity and hairy armpits

 

[DrZoidberg]

Steve, if we try bringing it back to topic. Imagine you're a young woman who got unlucky in the genetic lottery, and your big dream, is to be a porn star, how do you think it'll work out? Do you think you'd have to work harder and put up with more bullshit to succeed? Do you think people would take you for granted and often just treat you as their back up option?

Now replace "porn star" with "a decent mans girlfriend".

That's what the video in the op is about. Its something we rarely acknowlege in sociey. We treat the aesteticaly challenged as second class citizens and make zero ackomodations for them or acknowledge their pain.

Its even a trope. The fat kid who, as an adult, got into great shape and became hot, never felt attractive or desireable, because the psychological damage from all the childhood bullying was too great.

This topic is not shallow. The psychological damage from not ever feeling attractive is deep. That's the subtext running under the entire video.

No shit hot people are more confident. Everyone has looked at you and smiled encoutagingly you your whole life. That's also not just surface

 

[steve_bank]

Ant comments on my saying speech quality and attributes are part genetics and and part culture?

Gay, straight, black, white, brown, Native American, Italians, Jews, Germans....

Odd that gays are singled out. Some gays sounds straight, why do some gays not sound straight? You can ask the same question about speech and vocalizations about any culture.

Please, no videos as a response. What do you think?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Ant comments on my saying speech quality and attributes are part genetics and and part culture?

Gay, straight, black, white, brown, Native American, Italians, Jews, Germans....

Odd that gays are singled out. Some gays sounds straight, why do some gays not sound straight? You can ask the same question about speech and vocalizations about any culture.

Please, no videos as a response. What do you think?

Wrong thread?

 

[Jarhyn]

Ant comments on my saying speech quality and attributes are part genetics and and part culture?

Gay, straight, black, white, brown, Native American, Italians, Jews, Germans....

Odd that gays are singled out. Some gays sounds straight, why do some gays not sound straight? You can ask the same question about speech and vocalizations about any culture.

Please, no videos as a response. What do you think?

As I said, there's a fairly resolvable natural pathway to "eventually but indirectly" driving people who reject "expectations of masculinity":

Most people effected by testosterone end up having a deepening of voice.

Because this is a "classic" hallmark of "becoming a MAN", and because some people feel deeply betrayed by that biological event, there is a naturally observable direction "away" that people can go.

If we observe "the high and often-varying pitch of the voices of certain people", you couldn't really find it any further from the much more monotone, low, round voices that those insecure with their masculinity tend to front with.

The fact is that people who make their testosterone into their entire identity do heavily cleave towards very specific voice patterns that signal "testosterone", patterns which are the product of an ubiquitous biology.

Anywhere that biology is present, those who wish to invert the expectations of that ubiquitous biology will inevitably put on an inverse showing.

Biologically speaking, the desire to invert such expectations will also be just as widespread, if not as frequent.

This means that, of the population of humans (no matter where), anywhere there is an expectation and culture of "masculinity", there will among those who reject such expectations, a high likelihood of picking up a voice that signals "I reject this expectation".

It is a fundamental act of rebellion, unconscious as it may be, against that natural element of maaculinity.

I expect that if you were to study it, you would find it most commonly in those cultures which see certain inverse voice qualities to it as "masculine".

This is why we might expect to see this effect or population "singled out", however: because there's a biological element to the thing that they reject through picking up "the voice", conscientiously or not.

 

[Elixir]

We treat the aesteticaly challenged as second class citizens and make zero ackomodations for them or acknowledge their pain.

Oh? Your aesthetically challenged is someone else’s dreamboat. And that couple is probably happier than you are. The pain you imagine you are afflicting upon them may be all your own. Like, maybe, you’re looking for someone to make yourself feel superior, luckier, more beautiful and more blessed than they are.
Do you make the accommodations you think others withhold? Do you commiserate with them? Or are you inventing this, in response to an overweening desire to consider yourself “more attractive” than they are?

 

[steve_bank]

I can remember the name calling used by kids. Fat , ugly, skinny. Big nose, big ears, too short, too tall. A girl being flat chested. Kids ceiling others queer based on vocal quality.

From a report on education and immigrant kids. Kids from one Asian immigrant group would male fun of kids from another Asian group because their eyes were slanted differently.

It is across all cultures.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So what went wrong when the feminists conducted the studies in the early 90'ies? There's obviously a mismatch between what women say they want in studies, and what they show they want in porn consumption. The problem was how the studies were done. There's strong social pressure on women to say they don't like violent or degrading porn, even when they do.

So why does anyone like violent and degrading porn? Well... that's something for psychologists and sociologists to figure out. I don't think there's an easy answer.

Thought here: rape fantasy is extremely common. Related?

Its even the most common sex fantasy of women, by far.

I like Dan Savage's theory on that. Its a mental get out of jail free card to fantasize about whatever she wants. You're not a slut if its rape. And women can get touchy about feeling like sluts. Its a theory.

A standard feature about these rape fantasies is that the rapists, by tremendous coincidence, do all the favourite things the women are into, she has a massive orgasm and the men are super hot.

So I think its probably best to put these fantasies in the "not really rape" category

I've heard of people who like it with their partners, though. I do agree with him it's it's about not being at fault for doing "wrong", though.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So what went wrong when the feminists conducted the studies in the early 90'ies? There's obviously a mismatch between what women say they want in studies, and what they show they want in porn consumption. The problem was how the studies were done. There's strong social pressure on women to say they don't like violent or degrading porn, even when they do.

So why does anyone like violent and degrading porn? Well... that's something for psychologists and sociologists to figure out. I don't think there's an easy answer.

Thought here: rape fantasy is extremely common. Related?

Its even the most common sex fantasy of women, by far.

I like Dan Savage's theory on that. Its a mental get out of jail free card to fantasize about whatever she wants. You're not a slut if its rape. And women can get touchy about feeling like sluts. Its a theory.

A standard feature about these rape fantasies is that the rapists, by tremendous coincidence, do all the favourite things the women are into, she has a massive orgasm and the men are super hot.

So I think its probably best to put these fantasies in the "not really rape" category

Hmm ... DrZ is expressing his deep fantasy of raping women? They want to be raped, right?

Maybe they deserve to be raped, right?

Just because you don't like the reality doesn't make it go away.

Look it up. Rape fantasy is very common.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

My experience with "ugly" men as someone who is at times "shallow":

Everyone I have ever seen call themselves ugly has been reasonably physically attractive. The guy in the video is "reasonably physically attractive".

Of those who call themselves ugly, maybe 20% of them smell bad and have poor grooming habits.

In addition, 90+% of them have bad personalities: poor impulse control, extremely shallow demands for "beauty", believe they should have true authority in a relationship, or have some other major issues.

Further, when my husband encounters the same "ugly" people, he will call them "ugly" insultingly to their face, but only AFTER these things become apparent.

The thing is, "ugly" from a large (majority?) of the population does not mean unattractive, it means you behave in an ugly way.

People want to pretend looks don't matter.

Establishing that they are not an absolute barrier doesn't establish that they don't matter.

And the reality is that people unconsciously equate looks with trustworthiness.

Looks do not give success, they give far more chances to try for success.

The more you care about someone, the less you care about their physical appearance. Wait, that’s not true: the more you care about someone, the more beautiful they look to you.

Also, the more you need someone ( or their services) the less important their physical appearance is. Do we care if our plumber is a 10? Or a 5? We probably don’t care if he has terrible BO.

We do care of our medical professionals appear to have good personal hygiene and se to be in good health. We do not care if they would look good on a calendar.

While I agree with everything you're saying here I don't see how it in any way rebuts my point about looks giving you more chances.

 

[Toni]

I'll be 70 in October. My wife has a 40-something friend who was visiting the Lab when I took a call from the Red Cross, asking if I could work at a shelter for people displaced by the recent flooding. Unfortunately, it was 200 miles away, so I had to decline. After I walked out, friend says to wife, "That's hot".
What's hot?
"He volunteers for the Red Cross."

After nearly 60 years of wondering what constituted hotness, that was one I never considered, but it's nice to know I still have it.

I remember seeing my husband who, at the time had a scruffy, very unkept b beard and a wardrobe that could have marked him as homeless push out toddler in a grocery cart up and down aisles talking with I’m, engaging him as I went back to pick up something we forgot and I tell you, women were practically drooling.

If you want to attract women, I highly suggest walking a dog, preferably about lab sized and really fluffy helps. Especially if the dog is very well behaved—and you are too. Yes, that means scooping up the poop, But also a pleasant relaxed smile.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Sure. But we live in a sex negative culture where we don't educate kids on how to have sex. Porn is usually the ONLY teacher for how to do it.

How else are they supposed to learn, if not from porn? That was certainly true for me.

And again, kids have no problem separating fact from fiction. Only the mentally deficient don't understand that porn is staged and there's plenty off camera that is important. Like asking for consent.

But today its better then ever. There's loads of sex educational festivals all over Europe. Its a growing trend. I've been teaching at some of these.

Of course it's fiction. But fiction usually has a base of reality. And when it's the only source you can blur the lines--they know what they're watching is fiction but that doesn't mean they recognize every fictional element.

 

[Toni]

My experience with "ugly" men as someone who is at times "shallow":

Everyone I have ever seen call themselves ugly has been reasonably physically attractive. The guy in the video is "reasonably physically attractive".

Of those who call themselves ugly, maybe 20% of them smell bad and have poor grooming habits.

In addition, 90+% of them have bad personalities: poor impulse control, extremely shallow demands for "beauty", believe they should have true authority in a relationship, or have some other major issues.

Further, when my husband encounters the same "ugly" people, he will call them "ugly" insultingly to their face, but only AFTER these things become apparent.

The thing is, "ugly" from a large (majority?) of the population does not mean unattractive, it means you behave in an ugly way.

People want to pretend looks don't matter.

Establishing that they are not an absolute barrier doesn't establish that they don't matter.

And the reality is that people unconsciously equate looks with trustworthiness.

Looks do not give success, they give far more chances to try for success.

The more you care about someone, the less you care about their physical appearance. Wait, that’s not true: the more you care about someone, the more beautiful they look to you.

Also, the more you need someone ( or their services) the less important their physical appearance is. Do we care if our plumber is a 10? Or a 5? We probably don’t care if he has terrible BO.

We do care of our medical professionals appear to have good personal hygiene and se to be in good health. We do not care if they would look good on a calendar.

While I agree with everything you're saying here I don't see how it in any way rebuts my point about looks giving you more chances.

It depends on what chances you want. If you are in sales in any way, being attractive, well groomed, well spoken and knowledgeable and personable are all assets.

If you are unusually attractive and female and wish to be taken seriously in say, lab sciences: good luck. Sometimes applies to men, but not so much.

If you are overweight, any sex/gender, you are often assumed to be lazy and less competent.

If you are female and even a little above average looks wise, you’re often assumed to not be serious/marking time until you get married and start having babies or that you got your promotion by flirting or sexually engaging with make superiors.

Grooming counts for ma y if not most positions, with working in ‘dirty’ jobs such as plumbing or construction it not being a real factor but it can be a bonus. Oh, if you are doing plumbing or electrical work in a home and you are neat, tidy, and clean up after yourself, the homeowner won’t give a rats ass about what you look like or if your breath stinks.

My observation is that straight men respond to very attractive men almost as much as most women and sometimes more.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No money in porn? Maybe for some poor girl geting a few dolars to be gang raped. Distribution of porn is lucrative. Money laundering.

Look at major porn sites, sign up for a fee. Advertising on porn sites.

Like I said if you are defending porn that is your moral choice. No need for lengthy rationalizations.

What he's saying is that it's not large amounts of money per person and that most of it goes to the top people, like with any other type of mass-distributed performance.

As to war on drugs, I think we are too rsestrained. As much as I dislike Trump, I support the aggressive actions against drug smuggling. I share he guilt? More bullshit excuses to caver you drug use?

Putting poison up your nose is not just a personal choice. You are fundng the brutal psychopath drug cartels. We all have to pay for the medical and mental health consequences of drugs.

Drugs and alcohol are major health care cost drivers.

Sure they are--but that doesn't justify the drug war.

Simple test: Consider the most addictive drug. The one that kills the greatest percentage of it's users. It's legal in virtually every country in the world. But the western world is slowly winning the war.

The data isn't so clear on what drug is in the #2 position, but the most likely contender is legal in most of the world.

I am not condoning drug use, I'm saying that the drug war is far more harmful than the drugs.

And, about aggressive actions against drug smugglers? You realize the more drug enforcement the more drug deaths there are?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Steve, if we try bringing it back to topic. Imagine you're a young woman who got unlucky in the genetic lottery, and your big dream, is to be a porn star, how do you think it'll work out? Do you think you'd have to work harder and put up with more bullshit to succeed? Do you think people would take you for granted and often just treat you as their back up option?

Now replace "porn star" with "a decent mans girlfriend".

That's what the video in the op is about. Its something we rarely acknowlege in sociey. We treat the aesteticaly challenged as second class citizens and make zero ackomodations for them or acknowledge their pain.

Its even a trope. The fat kid who, as an adult, got into great shape and became hot, never felt attractive or desireable, because the psychological damage from all the childhood bullying was too great.

This topic is not shallow. The psychological damage from not ever feeling attractive is deep. That's the subtext running under the entire video.

No shit hot people are more confident. Everyone has looked at you and smiled encoutagingly you your whole life. That's also not just surface

Blasphemy is always false.

Even when it's true it's still blasphemy, and therefore false.

There are no disparate outcomes other than due to discrimination and other outside forces. Somebody must be at fault!

 

[steve_bank]

Well Loren, us humans can rationalize almost any behavior in our new cultural reality. Thee redult of which is increasing mental illness, physical illness, drug and alcohol addiction, and suicide.

If a woman agrees to have somebody piss in her mouth I suppose that is up to her. To me it represents mental and emotional issues.

Female rape fantasy? I have seen the violent rape sceene in Woman With The Dragon Tattoo. It des nit sghick me, but violent rape is now main stream entertainment.

The expected response is if you don't like it don't watch. But it goes deeper, underage cultural issues.

In the movie Hostel somewhere in Eastern Europe there is place where you can torture and kill for a fee. In one scene there is naked won nagging upside down with her throat cut. Blood dripping on a naked person underneath. Main stream entertainment.

Dehumanizng.


I was part of the 'cultural revolution' of the 60s 70s. Today my views have changed.

As we socially and politically slip into anarchy the question is whether we can survive with such a cultural reality.