Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

So, no concessions to any parties that want to invade land and steal resources rather than negotiate peacefully for mutual benefit.

You mean like the five Arab armies as soon as Israel was declared as a state?

I mean like Zionists murdering thousands and driving out hundreds of thousands of people so they could create an ethno-state with the intention that only Jews would be allowed entry and only Jews would be granted full rights of citizenship.

1) The attack came before Israel did anything. Your logic requires a time machine.

2) The vast majority of those who left did so at Arab behest. And then weren't allowed to return when they refused to accept the Israeli government. Why should Israel allow enemy agents into the country??

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I really don't see how anyone could be unaware that the general public in Gaza was eager to seize the opportunity to have less hostile relations with Israel and more prosperity for themselves. Or surprised that they were bitterly disappointed when Israel tried to halt the peace process in its tracks and their prospects for a better life rotted along with the strawberries at the Karni Crossing.

The closing of the Karni Crossing was not the best way to help Gaza. It did make so much more difficult for the Gazans to export produce.
IIRC at that time suicide bombers/gunmen were attempting and/or entering Israel via that crossing. Israel needed to protect its people whilst letting Gaza export produce.
Option 1: Open the crossing, help Gaza and let in suicide bombers.
Option 2: Close the crossing, hurt Gaza but stop suicide bombers.
You must choose. Which option and why?

This is an example of what I meant by no one really grasping the possibility of peace. Hamas could have stopped those suicide bombers/gunmen using the crossing and Israel could have kept the crossing open.
Neither side was really willing to take a hold of the nettle. Result all suffered one way or another.

Look more carefully at their actions. There is a clear underlying pattern that Hamas acts so as to destroy any peaceful means of supporting oneself. The strawberries rotting was an objective, not merely an incidental result of the attacks.

We see the same pattern repeatedly--Hamas attacks a crossing, Israel closes it for a while. The attacks are normally superficial--both sides understand that a failure to close the crossing would mean more substantial attacks. And the world baas for Hamas when Hamas initiated it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And I think that your "Is always Israel's fault" rhetoric is designed to shield your pro-Hamas beliefs from legitimate criticism of Palestinian/ Iranian etc. politics and leaders. If you can "only Israel's fault" hard enough you can avoid the uncomfortable truths about Hamas/Iran wanting to destroy Israel and Jews to create a greater, "Judenfrei" Palestine.
I am well aware of what Sharon/Netanyahu have done or being convicted of. That is a part of want is happening but not the complete story.

It is possible to read your posts and be almost unaware of Hamas' existence until Oct. 2023 when it could no longer be hidden.

I don't think she actually has pro-Hamas beliefs. Rather, once you accept a false reality you reach false conclusions. She's trying to help the Palestinians, unaware that their victimhood is deliberately engineered by their leaders. I do not blame them for not resisting Hamas, they don't have the capability of effective resistance.

Realistically, I don't think Israel or Palestine has much choice in what they do. Israel is faced with defend itself or die, the Palestinians are controlled by the terror money. The only party that can change things is Iran. (Or, Israel by taking Iran out. That would mean mushroom clouds, it's a lot worse than the status quo.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In your points of agreement you state that Hamas must be destroyed militarily. But who is going to do it? Not the US, not the EU, certainly not any nation is the ME except one.
Israel is trying to destroy Hamas militarily and you have criticised, complained, scolded, condemned every step of the way.
Does Hamas need to be destroyed militarily or not?

Hamas is a symptom, not a cause. Destroying Hamas would do nothing, another head to the hydra would pop up. But it's not needed, either--cut the terror funding, Hamas will fall apart.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The settlers should be resettled inside Israel or renounce their Israeli citizenship and become citizens of the State of Palestine under the authority of the PA.

Settlers who have engaged in acts of violence, intimidation, theft, and destruction of property should be prosecuted but probably won’t.

That's one reason why there are no good guys in this situation.

There are good guys.

They’ve been peacefully demonstrating for years, organizing, working cooperatively with people from within their community and outside it, and petitioning the courts in Israel and the UN to stop the racist assholes who are making trouble for everyone.

The peaceful ones hardly ever make headlines which leads people who only skim the news to think they don’t exist.

Anything less than guns is reported as "peaceful".

 

[TomC]

And the ones who Hamas does not demand for release?

They're probably also violent Islamists, but not particularly useful to the Palestinian leadership.
How about Israel executes the terrorists that are useful and release the rest?
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The inclusion of the settlements should make it obvious that this is about the West Bank. Settlers are attacking Palestinians they are t because they are Palestinian not because they are terrorists. . It is slow ethnic cleansing, tacitly endorsed by the current Israeli gov't through inaction against the settlers (and sometimes outright protection of the thugs).

There has been so much wolf-crying about settler actions that I generally don't care anymore. I'm sure there are a few legitimate reports mixed in but they're buried in a torrent of garbage. I don't like the settlements but I realize the problem exists because Israel knows that they aren't relevant in the big picture and doesn't want to spend the political capital to deal with them.

Just admit you'd rather see Jews massacred by Muslim theocrats than hold those brutal theocrats responsible for their actions.

My maternal great grandparents who were Jews were killed by the nazis in Poland. I have Jewish grade school classmates living in Israel. Stop projecting your irrational hatred onto others.

I must admit that my assumption of your capability if a coherent connection between Hamas and the current situation in the West Bank was sadly misplaced.

Well, stop proposing solutions that amount to genocide of the Jews.

Even if I were proposing such solutions (which I deny), it doesn’t matter that not logically follow that I’d rather see Jews massacred than holding murderous theocrats accountable. So your suggestion is useless.

Your "solution" is to accept Hamas claims as truth and thus give Hamas what it wants. And what Hamas wants is genocide. Putting a layer of deniability in it doesn't change the situation.

Just stop with your straw men and vile slander. Your opinions reflect your poorly reasoned projections, not the actual content of my posts.

When you demand the impossible in defense you are effectively prohibiting defense. Thus you are saying to give Hamas what it wants. I don't think that's what you intend, but that's the effect you are seeking.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Trump has renewed selling/giving Israel 2,000 lb bombs. Lethal radius of 400 yards. Four football fields. Severe blast injury zone that can extend up to 800 meters (half a mile).

Except they're exploding underground. You're giving the results of a surface detonation.

 

[laughing dog]

The inclusion of the settlements should make it obvious that this is about the West Bank. Settlers are attacking Palestinians they are t because they are Palestinian not because they are terrorists. . It is slow ethnic cleansing, tacitly endorsed by the current Israeli gov't through inaction against the settlers (and sometimes outright protection of the thugs).

There has been so much wolf-crying about settler actions that I generally don't care anymore. I'm sure there are a few legitimate reports mixed in but they're buried in a torrent of garbage. I don't like the settlements but I realize the problem exists because Israel knows that they aren't relevant in the big picture and doesn't want to spend the political capital to deal with them.

What a glib evasion. The settlements are relevant in the big picture of the West Bank. The settler violence and the current gov’t’s tacit support of the violence is part of the big picture of Netanahyu’s support, power base, and future policy.

Just admit you'd rather see Jews massacred by Muslim theocrats than hold those brutal theocrats responsible for their actions.

My maternal great grandparents who were Jews were killed by the nazis in Poland. I have Jewish grade school classmates living in Israel. Stop projecting your irrational hatred onto others.

I must admit that my assumption of your capability if a coherent connection between Hamas and the current situation in the West Bank was sadly misplaced.

Well, stop proposing solutions that amount to genocide of the Jews.

Even if I were proposing such solutions (which I deny), it doesn’t matter that not logically follow that I’d rather see Jews massacred than holding murderous theocrats accountable. So your suggestion is useless.

Your "solution" is to accept Hamas claims as truth and thus give Hamas what it wants. And what Hamas wants is genocide. Putting a layer of deniability in it doesn't change the situation.

Just stop with your straw men and vile slander. Your opinions reflect your poorly reasoned projections, not the actual content of my posts.

When you demand the impossible in defense you are effectively prohibiting defense. Thus you are saying to give Hamas what it wants. I don't think that's what you intend, but that's the effect you are seeking.

Didn’t demand anything, let alone the impossible - that is another straw man.

Please stop spreading falsehoods about me. I realize you believe the vile slander you spew, but if you stick to facts (not your opinions), it will be easy to stop.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The gov't of Israel imprisons Palestinians without charges (which is effective kidnapping).

The "administrative detention" is based on a law that was left over from the British Mandate. The detention still needs to be authorized by a judge and is reviewed by a judge every six months.

And those held in administrative detention are affiliated with terrorist groups and often have previously been convicted of terrorism charges. So it's not at all akin to Hamas and allied groups grabbing random civilians from a music festival and from their homes, including small children.

Israelis brace to learn the fate of Hamas' youngest hostage, taken captive as a baby

Holding people against their will without charges on suspicion of terrorism and sometimes torturing them is “akin” to kidnapping.

Prisoners of war almost never get trials. Being captured in battle is enough.

Besides, Hamas identifies the terrorists anyway. The ones they demand the release of are terrorists.

So why doesn't Israel release the others instead, because they aren't terrorists... as per your statement.

And your evidence for the existence of others is?

And Hamas will prioritize. Not listing them is not proof they aren't terrorists.

 

[laughing dog]

The gov't of Israel imprisons Palestinians without charges (which is effective kidnapping).

The "administrative detention" is based on a law that was left over from the British Mandate. The detention still needs to be authorized by a judge and is reviewed by a judge every six months.

And those held in administrative detention are affiliated with terrorist groups and often have previously been convicted of terrorism charges. So it's not at all akin to Hamas and allied groups grabbing random civilians from a music festival and from their homes, including small children.

Israelis brace to learn the fate of Hamas' youngest hostage, taken captive as a baby

Holding people against their will without charges on suspicion of terrorism and sometimes torturing them is “akin” to kidnapping.

Prisoners of war almost never get trials. Being captured in battle is enough.

Besides, Hamas identifies the terrorists anyway. The ones they demand the release of are terrorists.

So why doesn't Israel release the others instead, because they aren't terrorists... as per your statement.

And your evidence for the existence of others is?

And Hamas will prioritize. Not listing them is not proof they aren't terrorists.

True, just like Israel claiming they are terrorists isn’t proof they are terrorists.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The inclusion of the settlements should make it obvious that this is about the West Bank. Settlers are attacking Palestinians they are t because they are Palestinian not because they are terrorists. . It is slow ethnic cleansing, tacitly endorsed by the current Israeli gov't through inaction against the settlers (and sometimes outright protection of the thugs).

There has been so much wolf-crying about settler actions that I generally don't care anymore. I'm sure there are a few legitimate reports mixed in but they're buried in a torrent of garbage. I don't like the settlements but I realize the problem exists because Israel knows that they aren't relevant in the big picture and doesn't want to spend the political capital to deal with them.

What a glib evasion. The settlements are relevant in the big picture of the West Bank. The settler violence and the current gov’t’s tacit support of the violence is part of the big picture of Netanahyu’s support, power base, and future policy.

The problem is we have no means of figuring out what's real. There are many that do not add up, many that are exposed as not as described. And we have no way of determining what of the rest are real vs not able to determine are fake. Want me to listen, don't bury the real stuff in a mountain of garbage. Look at it from the other direction--do you believe yet another allegation of massive FRAUD from the MAGAs?

When you demand the impossible in defense you are effectively prohibiting defense. Thus you are saying to give Hamas what it wants. I don't think that's what you intend, but that's the effect you are seeking.

Didn’t demand anything, let alone the impossible - that is another straw man.

Please stop spreading falsehoods about me. I realize you believe the vile slander you spew, but if you stick to facts (not your opinions), it will be easy to stop.

You have rejected all means of defense that have been proposed. You have suggested means that are nonsense. (Really, now, assassinations in Gaza? How?) You present nothing, you ignore the fact that nobody else has suggested any means. What is any observer to conclude other than you demand they don't defend themselves?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The subject of what constitutes terror ties with journalists has come up. Ran into an answer:

Ibrahim Mahamid: The “Murdered Journalist” Behind a Much Bigger Story

How a journalist’s family became part of a carefully sanitized story of the West Bank

globaldisconnect.substack.com

Directly, immediate family, or next to a known target when said target was hit. That last category could end up including embedded reporters--but embedded reporters take the normal risk of combat. It's not a Geneva violation if one gets hit.

 

[laughing dog]

The inclusion of the settlements should make it obvious that this is about the West Bank. Settlers are attacking Palestinians they are t because they are Palestinian not because they are terrorists. . It is slow ethnic cleansing, tacitly endorsed by the current Israeli gov't through inaction against the settlers (and sometimes outright protection of the thugs).

There has been so much wolf-crying about settler actions that I generally don't care anymore. I'm sure there are a few legitimate reports mixed in but they're buried in a torrent of garbage. I don't like the settlements but I realize the problem exists because Israel knows that they aren't relevant in the big picture and doesn't want to spend the political capital to deal with them.

What a glib evasion. The settlements are relevant in the big picture of the West Bank. The settler violence and the current gov’t’s tacit support of the violence is part of the big picture of Netanahyu’s support, power base, and future policy.

The problem is we have no means of figuring out what's real….

Ignoring the fact we can, you have no problem making judgments about what is happening.

You have rejected all means of defense that have been proposed. You have suggested means that are nonsense. (Really, now, assassinations in Gaza? How?) You present nothing, you ignore the fact that nobody else has suggested any means. What is any observer to conclude other than you demand they don't defend themselves?

An observer who has paid attention would know your portrayal is false and would realize you dismiss all means of defense except what Israel does.

 

[Tigers!]

Not just journalists. Hamas' own death notices confirm that many health workers are also moonlighting as terrorists. Or are terrorists moonlighting as healthcare workers?

Gaza death notices show some so-called health workers were operating for terror groups

I read the article. The “many” is an exaggeration. As is “moonlighting as terrorists”.

Employment by Hamas does not make one a terrorist. Engaging in terrorism makes one a terrorist.

Does that mean that those employed in the Israeli settlements are just employees or guilty of nefarious deeds against others?

 

[Tigers!]

And the ones who Hamas does not demand for release?

They're probably also violent Islamists, but not particularly useful to the Palestinian leadership.
How about Israel executes the terrorists that are useful and release the rest?
Tom

Imagine the uproar from the usual suspects.

 

[ZiprHead]

Trump has renewed selling/giving Israel 2,000 lb bombs. Lethal radius of 400 yards. Four football fields. Severe blast injury zone that can extend up to 800 meters (half a mile).

Except they're exploding underground. You're giving the results of a surface detonation.

How do you know what the Israelies will do with them?

 

[Arctish]

Ethnic cleansing in the West Bank was documented by a UN report. Supported by video and reporting from the West Bank.

I wouldn't believe the UN if they told me it was raining.

When Israel prevailed in the first war Arabs outside the self declared boundary were not permuted to return and lost their land without compensation. Jews got primer farm and industrial land for free.

Those who would not agree to lay down arms were not allowed to return.

Your posts are so full of bullshit it’s amazing anyone takes you seriously.

Who was asked about laying down arms? The hundreds of thousands of unarmed civilians driven out of the villages pre-selectecd for ethnic cleansing before Plan Daley was enacted?

Show us the evidence anyone was asked. Then show us the reactions of Menachim Begin and Yitzhak Shamir to the idea the non-Jews their Irgun and Lehi terrorists had just removed would be allowed to return.

And stop posting nonsense.

I don;t think there has been any agreement on borders, so wherever Israel says is the border of Israel is the border of Israel.

The one time there was something close to an agreement Arafat walked without responding. It's always been about genocide.

Arafat did not walk out on the Oslo Accords. He signed them, supported them, and tried to keep them in effect even when his partner in peace was murdered by a militant Zionist.

Check your sources, Loren. They are lying to you.

If Palestinians had a state recognized internationally, they would have standing to sue Israel for damages.

If Palestinians had a state they would more obviously be the aggressor when they attacked Israel.

Agreed.

And they would more obviously be defending their own land and people when they respond to attacks from others.

That’s rather obvious, don’t you think?

 

[Arctish]

So, no concessions to any parties that want to invade land and steal resources rather than negotiate peacefully for mutual benefit.

You mean like the five Arab armies as soon as Israel was declared as a state?

I mean like Zionists murdering thousands and driving out hundreds of thousands of people so they could create an ethno-state with the intention that only Jews would be allowed entry and only Jews would be granted full rights of citizenship.

1) The attack came before Israel did anything. Your logic requires a time machine.

Plan Dalet was the one that resulted in the murder of thousands and the displacement of hundreds of thousands. It was begun weeks before the Zionists of the Jewish Agency for Palestine declared the existence of the State of Israel and continued for months more.

Your ongoing ignorance of the chain of events requires dedication but I hope you aren’t expecting admiration.

2) The vast majority of those who left did so at Arab behest. And then weren't allowed to return when they refused to accept the Israeli government. Why should Israel allow enemy agents into the country??

It’s really too bad you refuse to learn anything from the writings of Israeli Zionist historians like Benny Morris. You would have much better arguments if they weren’t riddled with claims that were disproven decades ago. That one about most of the refugees leaving because Palestinian leaders told them to was shown to be untrue and based on a disinformation campaign and anyway, it has no bearing on the Rights of Refugees to return to their former places of residence. It’s just more victim blaming nonsense used to justify blatant racism.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The gov't of Israel imprisons Palestinians without charges (which is effective kidnapping).

The "administrative detention" is based on a law that was left over from the British Mandate. The detention still needs to be authorized by a judge and is reviewed by a judge every six months.

And those held in administrative detention are affiliated with terrorist groups and often have previously been convicted of terrorism charges. So it's not at all akin to Hamas and allied groups grabbing random civilians from a music festival and from their homes, including small children.

Israelis brace to learn the fate of Hamas' youngest hostage, taken captive as a baby

Holding people against their will without charges on suspicion of terrorism and sometimes torturing them is “akin” to kidnapping.

Prisoners of war almost never get trials. Being captured in battle is enough.

Besides, Hamas identifies the terrorists anyway. The ones they demand the release of are terrorists.

So why doesn't Israel release the others instead, because they aren't terrorists... as per your statement.

And your evidence for the existence of others is?

Your statement. You said Hamas identifies the terrorists for us by demanding those people being released.

And Hamas will prioritize. Not listing them is not proof they aren't terrorists.

Good point. So Israel has established that in a trial, right? Or are we going the enemy combatants route of W Bush fame?