California Doing California Things

[Emily Lake]

You know, if you'd just calm down for a fucking second, we could have a real discussion about the issue at hand. You're trying to make me out to be some weird caricature of the Evil Woke Liberal, and its blinding you to the fact that we don't even entirely disagree about this.

You should reread your own posts, and consider who really needs to calm down. You somehow feel you’re in the right to call me a racist engaging in nazi rhetoric, and to be inexcusably rude and hateful toward me. I already told you I’m not going to put up with it, and I will reflect YOUR behavior back at you.

If you want a real discussion, then behave appropriately. Don’t fucking chide me to “calm down” while insulting me in the exact same breath.

You seem all in on telling other people to stop calling you racist. AFAIK, no one has called you a racist. Or a nazi.

Do you happen to have Poli on ignore?

That speaks volumes as to how you see the world. A race traitor, am I now? Fuck your Nazi bullshit to the lowest circle of hell.

The notion of wanting to intentionally suppress knowledge of history disgusts me, and the idea that doing so is justified by your paranoia about losing your advantage in some "race war" that only exists in your racism-addled mind just makes it more contemptible.

 

[Politesse]

Do you happen to have Poli on ignore?

Have you considered how much more peaceful your life would be if you did? You keep chiming in on every damn thing I write in whatever thread, demanding responses, then getting upset that those responses are honest. I'm not going to pretend I don't find it disgusting that you tried to appeal to me on the basis of shared race, but if you don't want to know that, don't ask. How was I supposed to respond to that? "How does this benefit you as a white" is a Nazi-ass question, and it's gross. I'm not going to reply in a way that treats it like that was a normal or acceptable thing to ask, because it wasn't. Go back to the 1930s and plug your ears if you can't handle criticism of the shit you write.

 

[Emily Lake]

Do you happen to have Poli on ignore?

Have you considered how much more peaceful your life would be if you did? You keep chiming in on every damn thing I write in whatever thread, demanding responses, then getting upset that those responses are honest.

Honest <> Asshole

I presume you're capable of formulating an honest response that is also civil? Yet you choose not to do so. Frequently.

I'm not going to pretend I don't find it disgusting that you tried to appeal to me on the basis of shared race, but if you don't want to know that, don't ask. How was I supposed to respond to that? "How does this benefit you as a white" is a Nazi-ass question, and it's gross.

Oh for fuck's holy sake. Context matters you knob. The rather clear implication being that increased racial tension benefits white progressives by assisting in consolidating power for your political actors. You get to play the role of white savior for those poor, oppressed black people who are unable to help themselves.

I'm not going to reply in a way that treats it like that was a normal or acceptable thing to ask, because it wasn't. Go back to the 1930s and plug your ears if you can't handle criticism of the shit you write.

Or you could learn how to read with the intent to understand instead of turning into an unmitigated asshat at every opportunity. It's really not that hard - most adults are able to do this.

At least in real life. The pretense of anonymity often opens the door to the very worst in some people.

 

[Toni]

You know, if you'd just calm down for a fucking second, we could have a real discussion about the issue at hand. You're trying to make me out to be some weird caricature of the Evil Woke Liberal, and its blinding you to the fact that we don't even entirely disagree about this.

You should reread your own posts, and consider who really needs to calm down. You somehow feel you’re in the right to call me a racist engaging in nazi rhetoric, and to be inexcusably rude and hateful toward me. I already told you I’m not going to put up with it, and I will reflect YOUR behavior back at you.

If you want a real discussion, then behave appropriately. Don’t fucking chide me to “calm down” while insulting me in the exact same breath.

You seem all in on telling other people to stop calling you racist. AFAIK, no one has called you a racist. Or a nazi.

Do you happen to have Poli on ignore?

That speaks volumes as to how you see the world. A race traitor, am I now? Fuck your Nazi bullshit to the lowest circle of hell.

The notion of wanting to intentionally suppress knowledge of history disgusts me, and the idea that doing so is justified by your paranoia about losing your advantage in some "race war" that only exists in your racism-addled mind just makes it more contemptible.

No I do not have him on ignore.

Pretty sure he has me on ignore.

 

[Emily Lake]

You know, if you'd just calm down for a fucking second, we could have a real discussion about the issue at hand. You're trying to make me out to be some weird caricature of the Evil Woke Liberal, and its blinding you to the fact that we don't even entirely disagree about this.

You should reread your own posts, and consider who really needs to calm down. You somehow feel you’re in the right to call me a racist engaging in nazi rhetoric, and to be inexcusably rude and hateful toward me. I already told you I’m not going to put up with it, and I will reflect YOUR behavior back at you.

If you want a real discussion, then behave appropriately. Don’t fucking chide me to “calm down” while insulting me in the exact same breath.

You seem all in on telling other people to stop calling you racist. AFAIK, no one has called you a racist. Or a nazi.

Do you happen to have Poli on ignore?

That speaks volumes as to how you see the world. A race traitor, am I now? Fuck your Nazi bullshit to the lowest circle of hell.

The notion of wanting to intentionally suppress knowledge of history disgusts me, and the idea that doing so is justified by your paranoia about losing your advantage in some "race war" that only exists in your racism-addled mind just makes it more contemptible.

No I do not have him on ignore.

Pretty sure he has me on ignore.

Do you often refer to Poli as "nobody" then? Or do you think I'm being "too thin skinned" by accurately identifying Poli's insults as such? Perhaps you think I should "be nice"?

Not taking shots at you, just pointing out that I didn't start this bullshit. Me deciding I;m no longer going to tolerate such behavior doesn't make Poli a victim. Much like when the bullied kid finally hits back, we don't turn on them and chastise them for standing up for themselves and not being willing to continue being punched in the head.

 

[Politesse]

Oh for fuck's holy sake. Context matters you knob. The rather clear implication being that increased racial tension benefits white progressives by assisting in consolidating power for your political actors. You get to play the role of white savior for those poor, oppressed black people who are unable to help themselves.

That's not much less offensive, but it's also definitively not what you wrote.

 

[Emily Lake]

Oh for fuck's holy sake. Context matters you knob. The rather clear implication being that increased racial tension benefits white progressives by assisting in consolidating power for your political actors. You get to play the role of white savior for those poor, oppressed black people who are unable to help themselves.

That's not much less offensive, but it's also definitively not what you wrote.

Do you understand what the word "implication" means?

 

[Politesse]

Oh for fuck's holy sake. Context matters you knob. The rather clear implication being that increased racial tension benefits white progressives by assisting in consolidating power for your political actors. You get to play the role of white savior for those poor, oppressed black people who are unable to help themselves.

That's not much less offensive, but it's also definitively not what you wrote.

Do you understand what the word "implication" means?

I know exactly what a white person is implying when they ask why I care about the subjugation of non-whites. Why the fuck wouldn't I? Why would any half-decent person not care about that? I'm not a "savior" of anyone by the way, nor would want to be. I'm just some guy, who doesn't want a government that mistreats its citizens. Because that's wrong. I don't need "benefits", as you put it, to see that.

 

[Toni]

You know, if you'd just calm down for a fucking second, we could have a real discussion about the issue at hand. You're trying to make me out to be some weird caricature of the Evil Woke Liberal, and its blinding you to the fact that we don't even entirely disagree about this.

You should reread your own posts, and consider who really needs to calm down. You somehow feel you’re in the right to call me a racist engaging in nazi rhetoric, and to be inexcusably rude and hateful toward me. I already told you I’m not going to put up with it, and I will reflect YOUR behavior back at you.

If you want a real discussion, then behave appropriately. Don’t fucking chide me to “calm down” while insulting me in the exact same breath.

You seem all in on telling other people to stop calling you racist. AFAIK, no one has called you a racist. Or a nazi.

Do you happen to have Poli on ignore?

That speaks volumes as to how you see the world. A race traitor, am I now? Fuck your Nazi bullshit to the lowest circle of hell.

The notion of wanting to intentionally suppress knowledge of history disgusts me, and the idea that doing so is justified by your paranoia about losing your advantage in some "race war" that only exists in your racism-addled mind just makes it more contemptible.

No I do not have him on ignore.

Pretty sure he has me on ignore.

Do you often refer to Poli as "nobody" then? Or do you think I'm being "too thin skinned" by accurately identifying Poli's insults as such? Perhaps you think I should "be nice"?

Not taking shots at you, just pointing out that I didn't start this bullshit. Me deciding I;m no longer going to tolerate such behavior doesn't make Poli a victim. Much like when the bullied kid finally hits back, we don't turn on them and chastise them for standing up for themselves and not being willing to continue being punched in the head.

I draw lines a bit differently than you do. For one thing, as uncomfortable as it makes me to say this, I think all of us humans are a bit racist at times. Whether we do it consciously or not, it is human to want to put other people into neat little categories. It’s good to be conscious of it in ourselves and to try to catch it in ourselves or do a bit of self examination if someone casts aspersions.

Why do you actually care what someone on the internet thinks of you?

You know who you are.

I’ve been called plenty of names. Look, I grew up with sisters and we all had razor wire for tongues.

And these are mostly guys we’re arguing with and they grow up insulting each other a lot worse than anything I’ve seen here.

If you think someone is being insulting, it’s better to ignore it or call it out for what it is and then to just make your points . You can’t change other people. Let the pigs wallow. Don’t climb down in the mud.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

we don't even entirely disagree about this.

In the spirit of a reset (which you are also capable of doing, bear in mind), I’d like to point out that you have entirely elided my point.

Your premise seems to be that actually making specific white individuals pay monetary reparations to specific black individuals will never happen. You appear to have completely missed that I never claimed such, nor even implied it. That’s a leap you made all by yourself, and isn’t supported by my posts.

For decades now, Democrats have supported and amplified the notion that the US is a super racist nation, and that white Americans are majority racists who oppress black people. Democrats - not exclusively politicians, but supporters and members of the party - have made a platform of majority American culture being synonymous with white supremacy, and that white people in general should make amends for it.

That is quite the umm... spin. I think the argument is more like between the end of Reconstruction and the 1960s, a not so secret conspiracy was run to limit access to goods, services, housing, access to capital, etc... to blacks, most recently would be the GI Bill that blacks who served our nation in WWII did not receive the housing and college benefits that whites did. Benefits that made a huge difference for the baby boomers. Yeah, there were were extrajudicial race riots and lynchings too.

You want to use naughty words about supremacy, racism, etc... Call it whatever you want, the critical terminology was that it was "systemic" in government and national finance. Most of us alive today had nothing to do with it. But there are still impacts of it as seen in inner-cities that were allowed to become dilapidated as big banks shifted finance to suburbs and away from cities. We can put our fingers in our ears and close our eyes and say we weren't responsible. But the struggles still remain. So we can either acts like adults and move the nation forward... or be narcissists and say we don't care about what doesn't impact us personally and happened a long time ago*.

The narrative of white people in general being inherently racist as a state of being is woven throughout every aspect of work by Ibram X Kendi, Robin Di’Angelo, and many other influential activists.

Who?! You seem to know a lot more about the fringe than people in the fringe do.

The fact that their premises are false is hand-waved away. Anyone who points out that this isn’t actually true gets labeled a racist.

Today on, Hey, but I'm the victim!, we discuss how the economic consequences of a century of systemic race based economic protocols have countless scars remaining in our society and how people that disagree with that feel victimized by the entire discussion.

Nothing is being “hidden” right now. What’s being demanded by this bill is to dig deep into history… and for all intents, publicly confess the sins of one’s ancestors. What’s the point? What public benefit is accomplished by this?
None. There is no possible good thing that can come if this. At least not for the public in general.

The absolute best scenario is that the state wants to confiscate money from those companies as a punitive measure for lawful behavior from nearly 200 years ago.

But you’re right, it would probably get vetoed. But actually making real reparations (no matter how misguided that idea is) probably isn’t the actual point.

Want to talk about race? Why is that the Conservative take on reparations for Hispanics and White people is a necessary part of dealing with Cuba... but an insult to even discuss for Blacks?

Because there *is* a benefit to be gained: a political one. The act of fishing and disclosing the “sins” of companies is highly likely to result in opprobrium toward those companies by the black community, as well as democrat supporters- especially progressives who use class oppression as a cornerstone of their worldview. It provides ammunition for democratic politicians to leverage. It allows democrats to continue playing up the “racist America” narrative… and to position their party as the solution.

Never mind that this pits races against each other.

Curious, are you saying this makes you hate other races, or are you implying you are special and can rise above the left-wing conspiracy and don't let this manipulate you but other people aren't special like you and can't stop the left-wing conspiracy from making them be pitted against the other races?

To be clear, these are your words, not mine. Presumably you have the amount of self-control and rationality to not be so easily manipulated. So why do you think everyone else is so stupid and can't manage this rationally?

 

[Emily Lake]

Oh for fuck's holy sake. Context matters you knob. The rather clear implication being that increased racial tension benefits white progressives by assisting in consolidating power for your political actors. You get to play the role of white savior for those poor, oppressed black people who are unable to help themselves.

That's not much less offensive, but it's also definitively not what you wrote.

Do you understand what the word "implication" means?

I know exactly what a white person is implying when they ask why I care about the subjugation of non-whites.

Clearly you didn't.

 

[Emily Lake]

Why do you actually care what someone on the internet thinks of you?

Because I think it is entirely unjust that some people be expected to tolerate bullying just because it makes the bully unhappy to be called out for their poor behavior.

And these are mostly guys we’re arguing with and they grow up insulting each other a lot worse than anything I’ve seen here.

Excusing their behavior because they're men doesn't really work for me. Boys also tend to be more aggressive and violent than girls, but that doesn't mean we should tolerate wife beating because of it.

If you think someone is being insulting, it’s better to ignore it or call it out for what it is and then to just make your points . You can’t change other people. Let the pigs wallow. Don’t climb down in the mud.

You know the fastest way to teach a kitten not to bite your hand? Bite their ear when they do. Not hard enough to draw blood, not hard enough to cause serious damage. Just enough to hurt and get their attention.

Being patient hasn't been effective. Being polite and employing reason and civil argument hasn't produced a change in behavior. Perhaps being subjected to the same kind of invective they feel empowered to dish out will remind them of the golden rule. It might not, and I'm aware of that. That's fine.

It is now entirely their choice how we interact. Treat me with civility and they will receive the same. Treat me with contempt and they will receive the same. I won't instigate it, but I also won't tolerate it meekly and subserviently.

 

[Politesse]

Being patient hasn't been effective. Being polite and employing reason and civil argument hasn't produced a change in behavior.

When have you ever been even slightly polite to people you disagree with, let alone patient? Certainly not during the time I've known you on this forum. You deny people their preferred names and pronouns, you talk over them, accuse them of being party to absurd conspiracy theories, use pejorative and profane language... how is any of that polite? By "being polite" do you just mean complaining about other people being rude to you?

 

[Toni]

Why do you actually care what someone on the internet thinks of you?

Because I think it is entirely unjust that some people be expected to tolerate bullying just because it makes the bully unhappy to be called out for their poor behavior.

And these are mostly guys we’re arguing with and they grow up insulting each other a lot worse than anything I’ve seen here.

Excusing their behavior because they're men doesn't really work for me. Boys also tend to be more aggressive and violent than girls, but that doesn't mean we should tolerate wife beating because of it.

If you think someone is being insulting, it’s better to ignore it or call it out for what it is and then to just make your points . You can’t change other people. Let the pigs wallow. Don’t climb down in the mud.

You know the fastest way to teach a kitten not to bite your hand? Bite their ear when they do. Not hard enough to draw blood, not hard enough to cause serious damage. Just enough to hurt and get their attention.

Being patient hasn't been effective. Being polite and employing reason and civil argument hasn't produced a change in behavior. Perhaps being subjected to the same kind of invective they feel empowered to dish out will remind them of the golden rule. It might not, and I'm aware of that. That's fine.

It is now entirely their choice how we interact. Treat me with civility and they will receive the same. Treat me with contempt and they will receive the same. I won't instigate it, but I also won't tolerate it meekly and subserviently.

My mother told me she stopped me biting by biting me back. So when my oldest got to that age, with great trepidation, I but him back.

He laughed. And but me harder.

I bit him harder.

He laughed again.

I considered for a moment retaliating and also that I was raising a monster. And I was not willing to bite my child again.

I put him in his crib. He hated being isolated from the action and wailed and wailed.

He was released from isolation after a couple of minutes and never bit again.

And was so much of a monster that he carried around his stuffed Mickey Mouse would change its diapers and feed a few years later when his sibling arrived.

My advice is to ignore what you can ( isolation) . If you have to, nothing wrong with handing it back but imo, that just starts a merry go round that is really a spiral down the toilet. But I’m hardly immune abd wont claim I never head that direction.

In the end, beyond children, we can only control what we do. I try to be polite. I’m not always successful.

 

[Emily Lake]

we don't even entirely disagree about this.

In the spirit of a reset (which you are also capable of doing, bear in mind), I’d like to point out that you have entirely elided my point.

Your premise seems to be that actually making specific white individuals pay monetary reparations to specific black individuals will never happen. You appear to have completely missed that I never claimed such, nor even implied it. That’s a leap you made all by yourself, and isn’t supported by my posts.

For decades now, Democrats have supported and amplified the notion that the US is a super racist nation, and that white Americans are majority racists who oppress black people. Democrats - not exclusively politicians, but supporters and members of the party - have made a platform of majority American culture being synonymous with white supremacy, and that white people in general should make amends for it.

That is quite the umm... spin. I think the argument is more like between the end of Reconstruction and the 1960s, a not so secret conspiracy was run to limit access to goods, services, housing, access to capital, etc... to blacks, most recently would be the GI Bill that blacks who served our nation in WWII did not receive the housing and college benefits that whites did. Benefits that made a huge difference for the baby boomers. Yeah, there were were extrajudicial race riots and lynchings too.

You want to use naughty words about supremacy, racism, etc... Call it whatever you want, the critical terminology was that it was "systemic" in government and national finance. Most of us alive today had nothing to do with it. But there are still impacts of it as seen in inner-cities that were allowed to become dilapidated as big banks shifted finance to suburbs and away from cities. We can put our fingers in our ears and close our eyes and say we weren't responsible. But the struggles still remain. So we can either acts like adults and move the nation forward... or be narcissists and say we don't care about what doesn't impact us personally and happened a long time ago*.

The narrative of white people in general being inherently racist as a state of being is woven throughout every aspect of work by Ibram X Kendi, Robin Di’Angelo, and many other influential activists.

Who?! You seem to know a lot more about the fringe than people in the fringe do.

Do you genuinely not know who Ibram X Kendi and Robin Di'Angelo are? You really should consider looking into them, they've been extremely influential in public and corporate policy.

The fact that their premises are false is hand-waved away. Anyone who points out that this isn’t actually true gets labeled a racist.

Today on, Hey, but I'm the victim!, we discuss how the economic consequences of a century of systemic race based economic protocols have countless scars remaining in our society and how people that disagree with that feel victimized by the entire discussion.

Nothing is being “hidden” right now. What’s being demanded by this bill is to dig deep into history… and for all intents, publicly confess the sins of one’s ancestors. What’s the point? What public benefit is accomplished by this?
None. There is no possible good thing that can come if this. At least not for the public in general.

The absolute best scenario is that the state wants to confiscate money from those companies as a punitive measure for lawful behavior from nearly 200 years ago.

But you’re right, it would probably get vetoed. But actually making real reparations (no matter how misguided that idea is) probably isn’t the actual point.

Want to talk about race? Why is that the Conservative take on reparations for Hispanics and White people is a necessary part of dealing with Cuba... but an insult to even discuss for Blacks?

The why would be time. It's the same reason why reparations to jews and their immediate descendant who were identifiably impacted by german actions during WW2 are reasonable. And it's why reparations to the fifth-generation descendents of slaves is not reasonable.

If you would like to narrow the focus, that could be reasonable. Let's consider people who were directly impacted by redlining, or whose immediate parents were. That might have a good basis. It's recent enough that the impact is identifiable rather than hypothetical.

Because there *is* a benefit to be gained: a political one. The act of fishing and disclosing the “sins” of companies is highly likely to result in opprobrium toward those companies by the black community, as well as democrat supporters- especially progressives who use class oppression as a cornerstone of their worldview. It provides ammunition for democratic politicians to leverage. It allows democrats to continue playing up the “racist America” narrative… and to position their party as the solution.

Never mind that this pits races against each other.

Curious, are you saying this makes you hate other races, or are you implying you are special and can rise above the left-wing conspiracy and don't let this manipulate you but other people aren't special like you and can't stop the left-wing conspiracy from making them be pitted against the other races?

If you can't think a but further, I'll settle for me being special.

To be clear, these are your words, not mine.

They aren't, though. They're your words, I never said them.

Presumably you have the amount of self-control and rationality to not be so easily manipulated. So why do you think everyone else is so stupid and can't manage this rationally?

This is a bit more complex to answer.

First off, I don't think it's self-control, I think it's largely awareness and humility. I think I'm more aware of propaganda and social manipulation than many people are. I'm not very good at, but I am pretty good at seeing it. And a surprising number of people aren't aware of it. It's shocking how many people aren't aware that they're being manipulated. Especially people who are intelligent, and who falsely believe that their intelligence protects them from emotional manipulation.

Why smart people are more likely to believe fake news​

Why Smart People Fall for False Information and What to do About It​

Why Smart People Are the Easiest Targets for Propaganda​

I know I'm smart, but I don't think I'm much smarter than most of the people around me. I know I can be mistaken, I know my brain lies to me sometimes, I know I have biases and I'm aware of what most of those biases are. I know that I'm at risk of being swayed by my own belief in my rightness.

This is an area where my particular career is actually good at tempering my ego: as a mentor once told me, actuaries are never right, we're just usually close enough to be useful. I work in a field where everything I do is based on assumptions and judgement... and I need to be able to identify the assumptions I'm making both implicitly and explicitly and to defend the judgements I've made from those assumptions. I need to be able to explain the risks and opportunities associated with my assumptions, and to position myself to quantify the explainable variance when reality differs from my assumptions - which it almost always does.

In my personal Rumsfeld Matrix, I think my unknown-unknowns is a smaller quadrant than for most people. Not because I know more, but because I'm very well aware that there's a lot I don't know.

Secondly, I come from a family background that includes a lot of military and intelligence work. Even if indirectly, I've been exposed to a lot more information about propaganda, sentiment manipulation, disinformation, and other means of influencing an opponent's beliefs than most people have been. I'm not an expert at it by any means, and I actively try to avoid it as much as possible. But I'm more aware of it than a lot of people are. Especially people who don't even know it's happening. If you're somewhat interested in how pervasive and powerful propaganda techniques are, you might look into Edward Bernays. There's a lot of stuff out there about marketing and media manipulation.

The messy part of this is also that foreign countries engage in a LOT of social media propaganda, a whole lot more than most people realize. The US has military dominance... but some of our opposition has much better propaganda than we do. Iran and China both have propaganda efforts active on social media that is much more effective than ours. That's something a lot of people aren't aware of, and a lot of people falsely believe that they're not susceptible to it.

Lastly, "voter blocks" isn't a new concept. It's something that has been in play by both parties for a long time. But that comes with a fairly ruthless manipulation of those blocks to sway them on average to view one party as good for them and the other party as out to get them. Dems have been backing a narrative of Reps being racists and sexists for decades now. Over the last few election cycles, that's been amped up even more. It's not subtle.

The reality is that the vast majority of white people out there don't give a crap about race. That isn't saying "they don't care about black people", it's saying "they don't care that some people are black". The Dem framing - not necessarily by currently elected federal officials, but by local officials and by political activists - has lately been "Dems care about black people, Reps hate you because you're black". That's not reality, that's messaging and narrative and propaganda. And it has the effect of increasing racial tension, regardless of whether that's the intent.

When I say it increases racial tension, you seem to be interpreting that as it makes me dislike other races. That's not the case. What it does, however, is make me subject to the assumption of racism regardless of what I say or do. When I disagree with a policy that I think is bad or will have negative outcomes, I'm immediately insinuated to be racist, sometimes just outright called names. It has made me a target of anger and tension, without me ever having done anything wrong, without ever having treated anyone differently because of their race.

 

[Emily Lake]

Being patient hasn't been effective. Being polite and employing reason and civil argument hasn't produced a change in behavior.

When have you ever been even slightly polite to people you disagree with, let alone patient?

Read the entire RvW thread. Give some thought to how much time I've spent being tolerant of some absolutely nasty accusations and treatment. The fact that you're blind to your own behavior isn't my fault. When you interact with me in a civil way, I do the same. Often I've tolerated many rounds of uncivil behavior from you, or a few specific others, before I respond in kind.

Certainly not during the time I've known you on this forum. You deny people their preferred names and pronouns, you talk over them, accuse them of being party to absurd conspiracy theories, use pejorative and profane language... how is any of that polite? By "being polite" do you just mean complaining about other people being rude to you?

I haven't denied anyone their preferred names. I refer to people by their user names. If you object to me shortening yours to Poli for convenience, you should consider saying so.

What absurd conspiracy theories do you think I'm party to?
What pejorative language have I used that is a problem for you? Has it been something I've instigated, or is it in response to contemptuous and denigrating language being used toward me first?

I don't give a flying fuck if you think my language is profane. There is no god I'm obligated to respect in the first place.

I don't think you're aware of how rude and contemptuous you are, Politesse. Try an experiment. Go find one of the interactions between you and me. Start with a few posts prior to when you and I start to bicker. Pull it all out, and give each person a fake name, something neutral, and lay it out as if it's a script. I'm fond of Alex and Pat and Blake and others that are sex-neutral and common enough to not really have a lot of subconscious associations, but whatever generic names you like works fine. Call the players Apple, Banana, Canteloupe, etc. if it pleases you.

Then hand the script out to a few people without giving them any hint of who each person is. Ask them to read it out loud, and see what inflection and implied tone they use.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I've never claimed to be perfect. Sometimes I'm snarky. All I'm claiming is that I very rarely start a nasty interaction. Most of the time, I put up with a fair bit of nastiness before I swipe back.

But I think I've been pretty clear that going forward, I'm not going to put up with it at all. I will give back what I'm handed. Be civil and so shall I. Be rude, and you should expect the same in return. Reciprocity is fundamental to a functioning society.

 

[Emily Lake]

My advice is to ignore what you can ( isolation) . If you have to, nothing wrong with handing it back but imo, that just starts a merry go round that is really a spiral down the toilet. But I’m hardly immune abd wont claim I never head that direction.

I think that's probably a very effective approach for children, where you can actually isolate them. I don't think it's as effective when a few people feed on each other's bad behavior.

 

[Tigers!]

Why do you actually care what someone on the internet thinks of you?

Because I think it is entirely unjust that some people be expected to tolerate bullying just because it makes the bully unhappy to be called out for their poor behavior.

And these are mostly guys we’re arguing with and they grow up insulting each other a lot worse than anything I’ve seen here.

Excusing their behavior because they're men doesn't really work for me. Boys also tend to be more aggressive and violent than girls, but that doesn't mean we should tolerate wife beating because of it.

If you think someone is being insulting, it’s better to ignore it or call it out for what it is and then to just make your points . You can’t change other people. Let the pigs wallow. Don’t climb down in the mud.

You know the fastest way to teach a kitten not to bite your hand? Bite their ear when they do. Not hard enough to draw blood, not hard enough to cause serious damage. Just enough to hurt and get their attention.

Being patient hasn't been effective. Being polite and employing reason and civil argument hasn't produced a change in behavior. Perhaps being subjected to the same kind of invective they feel empowered to dish out will remind them of the golden rule. It might not, and I'm aware of that. That's fine.

It is now entirely their choice how we interact. Treat me with civility and they will receive the same. Treat me with contempt and they will receive the same. I won't instigate it, but I also won't tolerate it meekly and subserviently.

My mother told me she stopped me biting by biting me back. So when my oldest got to that age, with great trepidation, I but him back.

It works. That is how my mother stopped my eldest sister (but younger than me) from biting her siblings.
Mind you it was in a doctor's surgery and the surgery was full......
It was 1969 Australia. Nobody batted an eyelid.
Try that these days and the police would be there in 37 secs.

 

[Toni]

Why do you actually care what someone on the internet thinks of you?

Because I think it is entirely unjust that some people be expected to tolerate bullying just because it makes the bully unhappy to be called out for their poor behavior.

And these are mostly guys we’re arguing with and they grow up insulting each other a lot worse than anything I’ve seen here.

Excusing their behavior because they're men doesn't really work for me. Boys also tend to be more aggressive and violent than girls, but that doesn't mean we should tolerate wife beating because of it.

If you think someone is being insulting, it’s better to ignore it or call it out for what it is and then to just make your points . You can’t change other people. Let the pigs wallow. Don’t climb down in the mud.

You know the fastest way to teach a kitten not to bite your hand? Bite their ear when they do. Not hard enough to draw blood, not hard enough to cause serious damage. Just enough to hurt and get their attention.

Being patient hasn't been effective. Being polite and employing reason and civil argument hasn't produced a change in behavior. Perhaps being subjected to the same kind of invective they feel empowered to dish out will remind them of the golden rule. It might not, and I'm aware of that. That's fine.

It is now entirely their choice how we interact. Treat me with civility and they will receive the same. Treat me with contempt and they will receive the same. I won't instigate it, but I also won't tolerate it meekly and subserviently.

My mother told me she stopped me biting by biting me back. So when my oldest got to that age, with great trepidation, I but him back.

It works. That is how my mother stopped my eldest sister (but younger than me) from biting her siblings.
Mind you it was in a doctor's surgery and the surgery was full......
It was 1969 Australia. Nobody batted an eyelid.
Try that these days and the police would be there in 37 secs.

Well, in your opinion, it worked in your family. My experience was quite different. I also figured out that different kids responded differently to different types of punishment. My introverted kids could have cared less about being grounded. Send me to my room where my books and lego are? Yipee! My extroverted kids felt that being grounded for an afternoon was akin to being drawn and quartered.

 

[Toni]

My advice is to ignore what you can ( isolation) . If you have to, nothing wrong with handing it back but imo, that just starts a merry go round that is really a spiral down the toilet. But I’m hardly immune abd wont claim I never head that direction.

I think that's probably a very effective approach for children, where you can actually isolate them. I don't think it's as effective when a few people feed on each other's bad behavior.

Yeah but imo, when I respond in kind, Im feeding the behavior I dislike. So I try not to do that. Obviously, if you read enough of my posts you will see that I'm not always good at following that advice.