Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Shadowy Man]

In a police state it doesn't matter what people think.

Unless you haven't noticed, Muslim countries tend to be police states. Clearly there's something about the culture that keeps pushing these countries towards these kinds of governments.

can you provide the statistics behind this assertion? How many Muslim countries are there in the world and how many of them are police states?

 

[DrZoidberg]

In a police state it doesn't matter what people think.

Unless you haven't noticed, Muslim countries tend to be police states. Clearly there's something about the culture that keeps pushing these countries towards these kinds of governments.

can you provide the statistics behind this assertion? How many Muslim countries are there in the world and how many of them are police states?

Nobody alive today can be this ignorant. So I don't think you are truly disagreeing. But I'm not sure what you are driving at?

Turkey used to be a shining example of Islamic secularism. Not anymore. Indonesia are doing ok. But that's it, right? The rest are police states. And to be fair, Indonesia has had a rocky journey. Since indipendence they've been a police state more than not.

I'm sure anyone can manage to do this maths in their head. So why exactly do you need statistics? Seems a bit redundant?

edit: BTW, Atürks secularisation attempt in Turkey was explicitly to make more Turkey more like the west. Because the Turks were traumatised by how the western nations had ripped apart the Ottomans so easily. Atatürk was trying to copy Japan's example. They tried copying the west in every regard.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Turkeys secularisation project died in a time where Europe was weak and letting itself be dominated by Russia. I think Russia's seizure of Crimea and the wests non-response led directly to the death of democracy is Turkey. The west had lost their prestige. That just goes to show how paper thin the Islamic secular culture is. It's a different culture. BTW, the Turks see themselves as completely different from Arabs. They generally think Arabs are a bunch of savages, and would be horrified if they knew that Europeans see Turks and Arabs as much the same.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Unless you haven't noticed, Muslim countries tend to be police states. Clearly there's something about the culture that keeps pushing these countries towards these kinds of governments. When Egypt had a free and fair election the Muslim Brotherhood (=police state) won an overwhelming majority.

Compared to what it had before the MB assumed government?

So what? Muslims aren't animals. They're not retarded sheeple. They're actual thinking humans. They have the same access to information as we do. You know that the developing world also has smart phones and Internet? They're not dumber than us.

You seem to have zero respect for Muslims.

 

[Shadowy Man]

In a police state it doesn't matter what people think.

Unless you haven't noticed, Muslim countries tend to be police states. Clearly there's something about the culture that keeps pushing these countries towards these kinds of governments.

can you provide the statistics behind this assertion? How many Muslim countries are there in the world and how many of them are police states?

Nobody alive today can be this ignorant.

Pretty offensive comment. There’s *nobody* in the world who doesn’t know how many Muslim countries there are? Or how many of those are police states?

It is comments like these that make me want to conclude you are not interested in good faith discussion. But I will address your post anyway.

So I don't think you are truly disagreeing. But I'm not sure what you are driving at?

Turkey used to be a shining example of Islamic secularism. Not anymore. Indonesia are doing ok. But that's it, right? The rest are police states. And to be fair, Indonesia has had a rocky journey. Since indipendence they've been a police state more than not.

I'm sure anyone can manage to do this maths in their head. So why exactly do you need statistics? Seems a bit redundant?

I personally do not know every country in the world and which ones of those are Muslim states and which ones are police states. Sorry if those facts seem so obvious to you, but some of us aren’t as expert in the entire world as you are. I am willing to believe that what you are saying is true but not merely on your say so. I have witnessed you being quite wrong about things I do know about so I don’t want to assume you are always correct about things I don’t.

I guess what I am getting at is whether we can determine if the presence of a police state is caused by Islam or coincident with it and perhaps caused by other cultural factors. I know quite a few Muslims and they do not comport with the general caricature you imply here, so I am trying to understand the potential disconnect. I admit the Muslims I know do not live in Muslim majority countries but I also know that the ideologies of governments of countries often do not reflect the opinions of the majority of the constituents for various reasons.

 

[Emily Lake]

You think killing hundreds of thousands of people who had nothing to do with and had no foreknowledge of the attack is okay? Most people do not. But you do you.

How are you getting hundreds of thousands? The google gods tell me it's closer to one thousand.

 

[Emily Lake]

Indeed. And yet you seem to think that lumping "Palestinian", "Gazan", and "Hamas" together as a set of synonyms is somehow helpful. It's not.

What's the meaningful difference between palestinian and gazan?
How much support does hamas have among palestinians and/or gazans?

 

[Emily Lake]

Hamas chose to provoke a war. The vast majority of Palestinians were not consulted. And Israel didn't have to respond to that provocation with genocide; They have been provoked many times in the past without doing so.

What counts as a "genocide" these days?

ETA: The source says it doesn't include casualties since Oct 2023, so the slider is pointless and the whole site is useless.

Data on casualties | United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - Occupied Palestinian Territory

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www.ochaopt.org

West bank, since Oct 2023, a total of 1,149 palestinian fatalities.

 

[DrZoidberg]

In a police state it doesn't matter what people think.

Unless you haven't noticed, Muslim countries tend to be police states. Clearly there's something about the culture that keeps pushing these countries towards these kinds of governments.

can you provide the statistics behind this assertion? How many Muslim countries are there in the world and how many of them are police states?

Nobody alive today can be this ignorant.

Pretty offensive comment. There’s *nobody* in the world who doesn’t know how many Muslim countries there are? Or how many of those are police states?

It is comments like these that make me want to conclude you are not interested in good faith discussion. But I will address your post anyway.

So I don't think you are truly disagreeing. But I'm not sure what you are driving at?

Turkey used to be a shining example of Islamic secularism. Not anymore. Indonesia are doing ok. But that's it, right? The rest are police states. And to be fair, Indonesia has had a rocky journey. Since indipendence they've been a police state more than not.

I'm sure anyone can manage to do this maths in their head. So why exactly do you need statistics? Seems a bit redundant?

I personally do not know every country in the world and which ones of those are Muslim states and which ones are police states. Sorry if those facts seem so obvious to you, but some of us aren’t as expert in the entire world as you are. I am willing to believe that what you are saying is true but not merely on your say so. I have witnessed you being quite wrong about things I do know about so I don’t want to assume you are always correct about things I don’t.

I guess what I am getting at is whether we can determine if the presence of a police state is caused by Islam or coincident with it and perhaps caused by other cultural factors. I know quite a few Muslims and they do not comport with the general caricature you imply here, so I am trying to understand the potential disconnect. I admit the Muslims I know do not live in Muslim majority countries but I also know that the ideologies of governments of countries often do not reflect the opinions of the majority of the constituents for various reasons.

You don't even need to be an expert. You can use google. So quit your waffling and start googling. This is not information that's hard to find.

And shame on you for trying to make me into a charicature of a racist. Not biting. Your comments are totally off base. Shame on you

 

[steve_bank]

Mu;slim states may not be police state per se, but they are religious states. Punishments for religious offenses. Anything said or written deemed as an an insult or disrespectt to god or Mohamed can be punished.

In the past I looked at state papers of Mulish states. Typically it says you have rights like free speech and religion, as long as it does not conflict with the Quran.

 

[Emily Lake]

Nobody alive today can be this ignorant. So I don't think you are truly disagreeing. But I'm not sure what you are driving at?

My guess is he's looking for a technical gotcha. You know, like the democratic people's republic of north korea isn't communist because democratic is right there in the name? And you know, some countries with muslim majorities still manage to have a reasonable degree of freedom, like Albania.

 

[Shadowy Man]

In a police state it doesn't matter what people think.

Unless you haven't noticed, Muslim countries tend to be police states. Clearly there's something about the culture that keeps pushing these countries towards these kinds of governments.

can you provide the statistics behind this assertion? How many Muslim countries are there in the world and how many of them are police states?

Nobody alive today can be this ignorant.

Pretty offensive comment. There’s *nobody* in the world who doesn’t know how many Muslim countries there are? Or how many of those are police states?

It is comments like these that make me want to conclude you are not interested in good faith discussion. But I will address your post anyway.

So I don't think you are truly disagreeing. But I'm not sure what you are driving at?

Turkey used to be a shining example of Islamic secularism. Not anymore. Indonesia are doing ok. But that's it, right? The rest are police states. And to be fair, Indonesia has had a rocky journey. Since indipendence they've been a police state more than not.

I'm sure anyone can manage to do this maths in their head. So why exactly do you need statistics? Seems a bit redundant?

I personally do not know every country in the world and which ones of those are Muslim states and which ones are police states. Sorry if those facts seem so obvious to you, but some of us aren’t as expert in the entire world as you are. I am willing to believe that what you are saying is true but not merely on your say so. I have witnessed you being quite wrong about things I do know about so I don’t want to assume you are always correct about things I don’t.

I guess what I am getting at is whether we can determine if the presence of a police state is caused by Islam or coincident with it and perhaps caused by other cultural factors. I know quite a few Muslims and they do not comport with the general caricature you imply here, so I am trying to understand the potential disconnect. I admit the Muslims I know do not live in Muslim majority countries but I also know that the ideologies of governments of countries often do not reflect the opinions of the majority of the constituents for various reasons.

You don't even need to be an expert. You can use google. So quit your waffling and start googling. This is not information that's hard to find.

I will google it soon when I get the chance. I just thought you might know since it was the basis of your claim. I will now know in the future that I just need to google support for your claims instead of expecting you present it.

And shame on you for trying to make me into a charicature of a racist. Not biting. Your comments are totally off base. Shame on you

I’m sorry you feel that way but I didn’t try to make you sound like a racist. That seems quite a leap to make on your part. It just appeared that your were implying that Muslims seem to have only police states and I was questioning if that is true and if that is somehow intrinsic to their religion or whether it is some other aspect culturally because my personal experience with Muslims doesn’t comport with that. You are the one bringing “racism” into the conversation. Maybe it’s a language issue? Something lost in translation?

But this discussion shouldn’t be about us and my “off base” comments (whichever those seem to be — perhaps a moderator can inform me of where I became so shameful) it should be about the topic at hand. If we can’t stick to that I will happily bow out.

 

[Shadowy Man]

I just did a Google search and it told me there about 50-53 Muslim majority countries in the world.

It then said;

Because “police state" is a political term rather than a formal academic classification, international monitoring organizations assess these characteristics—such as a dominant security apparatus, heavy government surveillance, and the suppression of civil liberties—using standardized categories like "Authoritarian Regimes" or "Not Free" status. [1]
According to data compiled by independent watchdogs like Freedom House and the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU) Democracy Index, roughly 25 to 30 of the 50–53 Muslim-majority nations are officially classified under these highly restricted categories.

So around 50-60% might qualify.

I can paste in more of the Google response but I think this addresses my question.

 

[DrZoidberg]

In a police state it doesn't matter what people think.

Unless you haven't noticed, Muslim countries tend to be police states. Clearly there's something about the culture that keeps pushing these countries towards these kinds of governments.

can you provide the statistics behind this assertion? How many Muslim countries are there in the world and how many of them are police states?

Nobody alive today can be this ignorant.

Pretty offensive comment. There’s *nobody* in the world who doesn’t know how many Muslim countries there are? Or how many of those are police states?

It is comments like these that make me want to conclude you are not interested in good faith discussion. But I will address your post anyway.

So I don't think you are truly disagreeing. But I'm not sure what you are driving at?

Turkey used to be a shining example of Islamic secularism. Not anymore. Indonesia are doing ok. But that's it, right? The rest are police states. And to be fair, Indonesia has had a rocky journey. Since indipendence they've been a police state more than not.

I'm sure anyone can manage to do this maths in their head. So why exactly do you need statistics? Seems a bit redundant?

I personally do not know every country in the world and which ones of those are Muslim states and which ones are police states. Sorry if those facts seem so obvious to you, but some of us aren’t as expert in the entire world as you are. I am willing to believe that what you are saying is true but not merely on your say so. I have witnessed you being quite wrong about things I do know about so I don’t want to assume you are always correct about things I don’t.

I guess what I am getting at is whether we can determine if the presence of a police state is caused by Islam or coincident with it and perhaps caused by other cultural factors. I know quite a few Muslims and they do not comport with the general caricature you imply here, so I am trying to understand the potential disconnect. I admit the Muslims I know do not live in Muslim majority countries but I also know that the ideologies of governments of countries often do not reflect the opinions of the majority of the constituents for various reasons.

You don't even need to be an expert. You can use google. So quit your waffling and start googling. This is not information that's hard to find.

I will google or soon when I get the chance. I just thought you might know since it was the basis of your claim. I will now know in the future that I just need to google support for your claims instead of expecting you present it.

And shame on you for trying to make me into a charicature of a racist. Not biting. Your comments are totally off base. Shame on you

I’m sorry you feel that way but I didn’t try to make you sound like a racist. That seems quite a leap to make on your part. It just appeared that your were implying that Muslims seem to have only police states and I was questioning if that is true and if that is somehow intrinsic to their religion or whether it is some other aspect culturally because my personal experience with Muslims doesn’t comport with that. You are the one bringing “racism” into the conversation.

But this discussion shouldn’t be about us and my “off base” comments (whichever those seem to be — perhaps a moderator can inform me of where I became so shameful) it should be about the topic at hand. If we can’t stick to that I will happily bow out.

Cultures aren't binary. They're continually evolving and adapting. Its a continuum. A persons culture is basically what values are good to have in order to be successful in that society. There's a huge variety out there. Ones culture can be different depending on social class, etc.

Muslims aren't a monolith. They're different depending on where they live. Muslims living in the west who are successful are of course well integrated. That means western values. As well there's resentful and bitter Muslims who try really hard to be good Muslims, but only get shit for it. There's all sorts.

Its completely normal for immigrants (or anyone really) to have several sets of conflicting values.

But there are some patterns. We can look at populations and draw conclusions. If a group of people keep doing something then that's information.

We can either see the failure of democracy in Muslim countries as super super bad luck. Or (more likely) a result of Muslim culture.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I just did a Google search and it told me there about 50-53 Muslim majority countries in the world.

It then said;

Because “police state" is a political term rather than a formal academic classification, international monitoring organizations assess these characteristics—such as a dominant security apparatus, heavy government surveillance, and the suppression of civil liberties—using standardized categories like "Authoritarian Regimes" or "Not Free" status. [1]
According to data compiled by independent watchdogs like Freedom House and the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU) Democracy Index, roughly 25 to 30 of the 50–53 Muslim-majority nations are officially classified under these highly restricted categories.

So around 50-60% might qualify.

I can paste in more of the Google response but I think this addresses my question.

What are you doing? This is so desperate. Who is going to be convinced by that? I don't think you believe what you are writing. Because its so dumb.

I suggest you concede the statement and try to figure out why Muslim countries are in such a sad authoritatian state. It'll be a more productive conversation.

 

[Shadowy Man]

I just did a Google search and it told me there about 50-53 Muslim majority countries in the world.

It then said;

Because “police state" is a political term rather than a formal academic classification, international monitoring organizations assess these characteristics—such as a dominant security apparatus, heavy government surveillance, and the suppression of civil liberties—using standardized categories like "Authoritarian Regimes" or "Not Free" status. [1]
According to data compiled by independent watchdogs like Freedom House and the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU) Democracy Index, roughly 25 to 30 of the 50–53 Muslim-majority nations are officially classified under these highly restricted categories.

So around 50-60% might qualify.

I can paste in more of the Google response but I think this addresses my question.

What are you doing? This is so desperate. Who is going to be convinced by that? I don't think you believe what you are writing. Because its so dumb.

I’m sorry. You suggested I Google it and this is what Google said in response. So maybe take up your issues with Google being “dumb” and not me.

Since you didn’t provide sources I looked them up, as you suggested.

I suggest you concede the statement and try to figure out why Muslim countries are in such a sad authoritatian state. It'll be a more productive conversation.

Why would I concede a statement with the only evidence I could find being somewhat in conflict with that statement? I don’t see how that would make any conversation more productive.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I just did a Google search and it told me there about 50-53 Muslim majority countries in the world.

It then said;

Because “police state" is a political term rather than a formal academic classification, international monitoring organizations assess these characteristics—such as a dominant security apparatus, heavy government surveillance, and the suppression of civil liberties—using standardized categories like "Authoritarian Regimes" or "Not Free" status. [1]
According to data compiled by independent watchdogs like Freedom House and the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU) Democracy Index, roughly 25 to 30 of the 50–53 Muslim-majority nations are officially classified under these highly restricted categories.

So around 50-60% might qualify.

I can paste in more of the Google response but I think this addresses my question.

What are you doing? This is so desperate. Who is going to be convinced by that? I don't think you believe what you are writing. Because its so dumb.

I’m sorry. You suggested I Google it and this is what Google said in response. So maybe take up your issues with Google being “dumb” and not me.

Since you didn’t provide sources I looked them up, as you suggested.

I suggest you concede the statement and try to figure out why Muslim countries are in such a sad authoritatian state. It'll be a more productive conversation.

Why would I concede a statement with the only evidence I could find being somewhat in conflict with that statement? I don’t see how that would make any conversation more productive.

Just stop. This is pathetic

 

[Shadowy Man]

Google could definitely be wrong. You can explain to me how it is with a reasoned approach though. I know if someone came along and cut and pasted some nonsense about physics or astronomy from Google or AI that I knew was clearly wrong I would try to explain why it is wrong with my expert knowledge and experience.

 

[laughing dog]

Indeed. And yet you seem to think that lumping "Palestinian", "Gazan", and "Hamas" together as a set of synonyms is somehow helpful. It's not.

What's the meaningful difference between palestinian and gazan?

Gazans are Palestinians, but not all Palestinians live in Gaza. For example. there are Palestinians living in the West Bank, in Jordan, in Lebanon, and the United States. Does that help?

 

[laughing dog]

I just did a Google search and it told me there about 50-53 Muslim majority countries in the world.

It then said;

Because “police state" is a political term rather than a formal academic classification, international monitoring organizations assess these characteristics—such as a dominant security apparatus, heavy government surveillance, and the suppression of civil liberties—using standardized categories like "Authoritarian Regimes" or "Not Free" status. [1]
According to data compiled by independent watchdogs like Freedom House and the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU) Democracy Index, roughly 25 to 30 of the 50–53 Muslim-majority nations are officially classified under these highly restricted categories.

So around 50-60% might qualify.

I can paste in more of the Google response but I think this addresses my question.

What are you doing? This is so desperate. Who is going to be convinced by that? I don't think you believe what you are writing. Because its so dumb.

I’m sorry. You suggested I Google it and this is what Google said in response. So maybe take up your issues with Google being “dumb” and not me.

Since you didn’t provide sources I looked them up, as you suggested.

I suggest you concede the statement and try to figure out why Muslim countries are in such a sad authoritatian state. It'll be a more productive conversation.

Why would I concede a statement with the only evidence I could find being somewhat in conflict with that statement? I don’t see how that would make any conversation more productive.

Just stop. This is pathetic

Asking for clarification is not pathetic. It presumes you are knowledgable about your claim of fact. It is a very polite way of giving one the benefit of the doubt. Really, you should be thankful for Shadowy Man's patient courtesy.

One might think you would have some inkling why you claimed Muslim countries are police states. So, instead of whining and flinging accusations, why not simply explain the basis of your observation?

Personally, I think you meant "authoritarian state" instead of "police state". The two are not identical terms. A police state is typically an authoritarian state, but an authoritarian state need not be a police state. It is a nuanced distinction, which probably explains your conflation.

 

[Toni]

Nobody alive today can be this ignorant. So I don't think you are truly disagreeing. But I'm not sure what you are driving at?

My guess is he's looking for a technical gotcha. You know, like the democratic people's republic of north korea isn't communist because democratic is right there in the name? And you know, some countries with muslim majorities still manage to have a reasonable degree of freedom, like Albania.

Or maybe he wants a few facts along with that oversized plate of opinionating Dr Z likes to serve.