Is having sex with a prostitute as bad as raping her?

[Tom Sawyer]

How about we agree that selling bodies and knowledge are just shitty ways of fucking up what is being sold and bought. The prostitute is selling a service one can provide involving one's body that is wanted by males or females. Same with programmers. One is selling a service one can provide for a willing buyer who needs or wants the service in any case.

To much needle threading .....

I don't think there's any shitty way of fucking up involved, it's just what selling something means.

 

[credoconsolans]

Attitude.

Such an attitude about women, will become institutionalized. "If one woman will sell her body, why wouldn't all of them?"

The idea that 'all women are whores' becomes ubiquitous. In countries where prostitution is legalized, such a job is looked upon as a career opportunity for women.

There was an incident a year or so ago in a country where prostitution is legal, where a teenage girl, looking for her first job, was sent an application to wait tables in a whorehouse.

The offer was retracted, the government said it was a mistake as the girl was too young, but what would have happened if she was old enough?

I'm sorry, but if a woman is unemployed and unable to get a job, she shouldn't be told that prostitution is legal and therefore something she needs to look into before she relies on unemployment or other social services.

Such an attitude about women, will become institutionalized. "If one woman will sell her brain, why wouldn't all of them?"

The idea that 'all women are mathematicians' becomes ubiquitous. In countries where book-keeping is legalized, such a job is looked upon as a career opportunity for women.

There was an incident a year or so ago in a country where book-keeping is legal, where a teenage girl, looking for her first job, was sent an application to answer telephones in an accountancy office.

The offer was retracted, the government said it was a mistake as the girl was too young, but what would have happened if she was old enough?

I'm sorry, but if a woman is unemployed and unable to get a job, she shouldn't be told that book-keeping is legal and therefore something she needs to look into before she relies on unemployment or other social services.




Many people would loathe working as a book-keeper in an accountancy firm; They would think of it as a living hell. But that's OK, because such people can simply not work as book-keepers.

But when it comes to prostitution, you seem to think that more protections than just the freedom to choose not to do a job you would hate are required. Why is that?


Your arguments seem to start from the flawed premise 'Prostitution is ALWAYS bad'; Is that what you believe? If so, can you support it with any evidence, or are we supposed to simply accept it as axiomatic?

Because bookkeeping and prostitution are soooooooo equitable as jobs

Get real.

 

[bilby]

Such an attitude about women, will become institutionalized. "If one woman will sell her brain, why wouldn't all of them?"

The idea that 'all women are mathematicians' becomes ubiquitous. In countries where book-keeping is legalized, such a job is looked upon as a career opportunity for women.

There was an incident a year or so ago in a country where book-keeping is legal, where a teenage girl, looking for her first job, was sent an application to answer telephones in an accountancy office.

The offer was retracted, the government said it was a mistake as the girl was too young, but what would have happened if she was old enough?

I'm sorry, but if a woman is unemployed and unable to get a job, she shouldn't be told that book-keeping is legal and therefore something she needs to look into before she relies on unemployment or other social services.




Many people would loathe working as a book-keeper in an accountancy firm; They would think of it as a living hell. But that's OK, because such people can simply not work as book-keepers.

But when it comes to prostitution, you seem to think that more protections than just the freedom to choose not to do a job you would hate are required. Why is that?


Your arguments seem to start from the flawed premise 'Prostitution is ALWAYS bad'; Is that what you believe? If so, can you support it with any evidence, or are we supposed to simply accept it as axiomatic?

Because bookkeeping and prostitution are soooooooo equitable as jobs

Get real.

While I understand that you think 'Get real' is a rebuttal, I am afraid it actually lacks sufficient detail to qualify as such.

Perhaps you could expand a little on what it is about my comparison that is 'unreal'?

Or are you simply projecting your distaste for prostitution, and blindly assuming that everybody else - including the people who choose prostitution as a career - feel exactly the way you do about it?

 

[fromderinside]

You used book keeping as a comparison. Get real. No way a book keeper is as honorable as a prostitute.

 

[Unbeatable]

Your arguments seem to start from the flawed premise 'Prostitution is ALWAYS bad'; Is that what you believe? If so, can you support it with any evidence, or are we supposed to simply accept it as axiomatic?

There's something to be said for quantification. It is feasible that the personality traits required to not loathe prostitution are statistically more rare than those traits required to not loathe bookkeeping. It is feasible that the "living hell" of prostitution, for those who loathe it, could cause greater psychological damage to them than the "living hell" of bookkeeping, to those who loathe it. It is feasible that the demand for the services performed by prostitutes exceeds by a significant margin the number of people on the planet with the traits required to not be psychologically damaged by the job. Depending upon how one defines "bad", there may actually be an empirical case for the claim that prostitution is, if not always bad, then bad enough for a large enough majority of people that it would be impossible to fulfill the demand without dipping into the supply of people whom it would damage. It would be interesting to see somebody gather the data necessary to either validate or refute such a case. But who really wants to go through all that work?

Because bookkeeping and prostitution are soooooooo equitable as jobs

Get real.

This just isn't worth debating to you, huh? You really think that every person reading this thread who doesn't find the flaws in bilby's comparison as obvious as you do is a lost cause?

 

[fromderinside]

Way, way to serious there Unbeatable. Its just a wanna do it thread.

 

[whichphilosophy]

You used book keeping as a comparison. Get real. No way a book keeper is as honorable as a prostitute.

A car mechanic is more similar to a prostitute than a book keeper who sits at a desk. The mechanic and prostitute share the fact that they both make a living lying on their backs.

 

[TSwizzle]

Even female porn "stars" seem to have issues. There is one that appears on some relationship reality show, what a train wreck she is. And just recently one in Nevada was damn near killed by her MMA boyfriend. On the whole, the sex worker has it pretty rough.

 

[Jokodo]

Even female porn "stars" seem to have issues. There is one that appears on some relationship reality show, what a train wreck she is. And just recently one in Nevada was damn near killed by her MMA boyfriend. On the whole, the sex worker has it pretty rough.

Are you serious? You realise that the cases you hear about are selected for being sensational?

Googling news for "charged with murdering girlfriend" or "charged with murdering wife", you'll find plenty of recent cases. In many news reports, the victim's professional background is omitted, but where it's stated, it's all over the place. Here's a case where the victim is "a long-term employee of queensland nickel", and here another one with a former manager at Procter and Gamble.

Are you going to conclude that "On the whole, the manager has it pretty rough"?

 

[bilby]

Even female porn "stars" seem to have issues. There is one that appears on some relationship reality show, what a train wreck she is. And just recently one in Nevada was damn near killed by her MMA boyfriend. On the whole, the sex worker has it pretty rough.

Are you serious? You realise that the cases you hear about are selected for being sensational?

Googling news for "charged with murdering girlfriend" or "charged with murdering wife", you'll find plenty of recent cases. In many news reports, the victim's professional background is omitted, but where it's stated, it's all over the place. Here's a case where the victim is "a long-term employee of queensland nickel", and here another one with a former manager at Procter and Gamble.

Are you going to conclude that "On the whole, the manager has it pretty rough"?

On the whole, employees of Queensland Nickel DO have it pretty rough. I wouldn't want to work for fat Clive. But that is not related to the current discussion

 

[Jokodo]

Are you serious? You realise that the cases you hear about are selected for being sensational?

Googling news for "charged with murdering girlfriend" or "charged with murdering wife", you'll find plenty of recent cases. In many news reports, the victim's professional background is omitted, but where it's stated, it's all over the place. Here's a case where the victim is "a long-term employee of queensland nickel", and here another one with a former manager at Procter and Gamble.

Are you going to conclude that "On the whole, the manager has it pretty rough"?

On the whole, employees of Queensland Nickel DO have it pretty rough. I wouldn't want to work for fat Clive. But that is not related to the current discussion

I'll have to trust you on that - it's the first time I've heard of Queensland Nickel, or for that matter Clive Palmer, so I don't consider myself expert enough to contradict.

But this really is unrelated to the current discussion. When prohibitionists proclaim that "on the whole, the sex worker has it pretty rough", they're implying that only a deranged person would enter the trade voluntarily, not that some employers/clients suck, since the latter would better be addressed by legalisation and regulation.

 

[bilby]

On the whole, employees of Queensland Nickel DO have it pretty rough. I wouldn't want to work for fat Clive. But that is not related to the current discussion

I'll have to trust you on that - it's the first time I've heard of Queensland Nickel, or for that matter Clive Palmer, so I don't consider myself expert enough to contradict.

But this really is unrelated to the current discussion. When prohibitionists proclaim that "on the whole, the sex worker has it pretty rough", they're implying that only a deranged person would enter the trade voluntarily, not that some employers/clients suck, since the latter would better be addressed by legalisation and regulation.

Yes; this is a total derail. I just happen to know (and dislike) Palmer, and found the chosen example amusing as a result. Queensland is a small state. We don't all know each other, but sometimes it feels like we do.

 

[Jokodo]

Queensland is a small state.

Yeah, right.

Try entering "area of queensland / (area of germany + france + czech republic + austria + hungary + slovenia + croatia)" into Wolfram Alpha.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The vast majority of sex workers choose to be sex workers, and choose to have sex with their clients (in exchange for money).

Not entirely shore if that is true

Statistics in countries where prostitution is illegal or immigrant prostitution is illegal is unreliable. Traveling to another country to work illegally is a crime. Being trafficked is not. Immigrant prostitutes have an incentive to say they were forced into prostitution even when they weren´t. That makes the numbers on trafficking dodgy.

Here´s a good blog on it
http://www.lauraagustin.com/

We have no reason to believe prostitutes are forced into their jobs any more than people in general are into low status jobs. And today sex workers have labour unions, conferences and everything. They are vocal and organised. They´ve stopped feeling ashamed of their work, so they´re starting to speak up. So we can listen to them directly and stop treating them like children. I saw a number that in Sweden 95% of all prostitutes are university students.

In Sweden we´ve decriminalised selling sex. Only buying sex is illegal. A result is that prostitutes have stopped hiding. They´re out in the open and are very vocal. Here´s their union home page. You can read it with Google Translate.
http://www.rosealliance.se/

There´s some sort of bizarre standards for sex work where we only are willing to accept prostitution if the prostitutes enjoy the sex and every aspect of the job. We don´t have the same demands on any other type of job. All that is required for us to accept prostitution ethically, is that they think it´s a better use of their time than other work. That´s it.

I think having prostitution illegal is degrading to women. It´s telling them to their face that they´re too feeble minded to be trusted to know what´s best of them and their bodies. It´s just straight up misogyny.

 

[bilby]

Queensland is a small state.

Yeah, right.

Try entering "area of queensland / (area of germany + france + Czech Republic + austria + hungary + slovenia + croatia)" into Wolfram Alpha.

LOL 'small' need not refer to area. Check out the population figures. There are plenty of cities in Europe that are larger (in population terms) than my home state.

In terms of land area, Queensland is several times the size of the Texas that Americans seem so proud of. And we are (by a huge margin) second largest in land area amongst Australian states.

Land is, in my opinion, rather less important than people.

So we are a small state.

But we do have more licensed brothels than Texas.

 

[Bomb#20]

In terms of land area, Queensland is several times the size of the Texas that Americans seem so proud of

Why is New Mexico so dry?

Show

Because Texas sucks.

How do you make a Texan mad?

Show

Tell him Alaska is about to partition itself into two states so that Texas will be only the third largest.

Did you hear about the Great Wall of Texas? Somebody told the Texans the only man-made structure visible from space is the Great Wall of China, so they decided to build an even more visible wall, which will outline Texas.

Show

Most of the contributions they've received are from out of state.

 

[jonatha]

In terms of land area, Queensland is several times the size of the Texas that Americans Texans seem so proud of.

FTFY

 

[credoconsolans]

Because bookkeeping and prostitution are soooooooo equitable as jobs

Get real.

While I understand that you think 'Get real' is a rebuttal, I am afraid it actually lacks sufficient detail to qualify as such.

Perhaps you could expand a little on what it is about my comparison that is 'unreal'?

Or are you simply projecting your distaste for prostitution, and blindly assuming that everybody else - including the people who choose prostitution as a career - feel exactly the way you do about it?

It's an insult to compare using your body sexually to a job where you only use your mind. That you even think it's comparable is laughable.

 

[bilby]

While I understand that you think 'Get real' is a rebuttal, I am afraid it actually lacks sufficient detail to qualify as such.

Perhaps you could expand a little on what it is about my comparison that is 'unreal'?

Or are you simply projecting your distaste for prostitution, and blindly assuming that everybody else - including the people who choose prostitution as a career - feel exactly the way you do about it?

It's an insult to compare using your body sexually to a job where you only use your mind. That you even think it's comparable is laughable.

No, it really isn't.

Not everyone shares your attitude towards sex; to suggest that sex is a special case, always and for everyone, simply because to you it is 'sacred' is as good an example of bigotry as one could wish for.

There are plenty of jobs, mental and physical, that are extremely distasteful to some people, while others see them as a good opportunity to make money.

If you really don't think that there are people in this world who would view a career in book-keeping with a similar revulsion to that which you express for prostitution; or if you really think that there are no people for whom having sex for money is a transaction with a similar emotional value to working in an office 9 to 5; then you need to get out more.

"I would hate it, therefore nobody could possibly do it voluntarily" is a very poor argument indeed. But you don't appear to have another.

 

[Toni]

It's an insult to compare using your body sexually to a job where you only use your mind. That you even think it's comparable is laughable.

No, it really isn't.

Not everyone shares your attitude towards sex; to suggest that sex is a special case, always and for everyone, simply because to you it is 'sacred' is as good an example of bigotry as one could wish for.

There are plenty of jobs, mental and physical, that are extremely distasteful to some people, while others see them as a good opportunity to make money.

If you really don't think that there are people in this world who would view a career in book-keeping with a similar revulsion to that which you express for prostitution; or if you really think that there are no people for whom having sex for money is a transaction with a similar emotional value to working in an office 9 to 5; then you need to get out more.

"I would hate it, therefore nobody could possibly do it voluntarily" is a very poor argument indeed. But you don't appear to have another.

And yet, every statistic that I've seen shows that the vast, overwhelming majority of sex workers would leave the profession if they felt they had a viable alternative. And a very considerable number of prostitutes are under aged or began the profession as an under aged sex worker.

Even in areas where prostitution is legal and regulated, there are still significant numbers of individuals--not only women but also young boys and very young children who are trafficked.