Freddie Gray dies a week after being injured during arrest

[Rhea]

High enough that those same cops would give you or me a ticket and a fine for not wearing a seatbelt during a NON-rough ride.

Manslaughter would have been fine. 2nd degree murder is overcharging in my opinion.

Also, it seems that Mosby has a conflict of interest here because the family lawyer served on her election committee and gave her $5,000 toward her campaign. She is also married to a city councilman, drawing suspicions that the charges are influenced by politics, not law.

Oh, and her parents are cops. So... yeah.

 

[Horatio Parker]

If they used RICO, they could send the entire force up the river.

It doesn't work that way. When the cheating Atlanta Public School teachers were RICOed it only applied to those teachers accused (and later convicted) of cheating, not all APS teachers or employees.
Also, from that case I learned that it's racist to prosecute black educators and that DA Paul Howard is a "house negro" for prosecuting them ...

Seems to me a case could be made that the BPD is a criminal organization. $5M in settlements in the past few years(and there's a cap of $200k). Systemic violence, a culture of brutality. Oh, for the good old days of upright parents bringing up their children correctly....so sad as these POs could've been productive citizens, now they're lost.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It doesn't work that way. When the cheating Atlanta Public School teachers were RICOed it only applied to those teachers accused (and later convicted) of cheating, not all APS teachers or employees.
Also, from that case I learned that it's racist to prosecute black educators and that DA Paul Howard is a "house negro" for prosecuting them ...

Seems to me a case could be made that the BPD is a criminal organization. $5M in settlements in the past few years(and there's a cap of $200k). Systemic violence, a culture of brutality. Oh, for the good old days of upright parents bringing up their children correctly....so sad as these POs could've been productive citizens, now they're lost.

I blame gay marriage.

 

[Trausti]

You may not intend to kill a specific person, but any idiot would know that doing this would result in a high risk of serious injury or death.

Yes, but do rough rides result in a similarly high risk, much less is it obvious that they result in similarly high risk?
As I said before, I wonder how often such prosecutions are successful.

I don't think it's the "rough ride" the prosecutor is saying amounts to 2nd degree. The prosecutor's statement does not allude to any evidence for that. The statement repeatedly references that Gray was not in a seat belt. But that's really doesn't get you 2nd degree either, as seat belts had been discretionary up until a several days before the incident. Can't say "any idiot would know" no seat belt would lead to injury if injury only happened rarely in the past. (Buses don't have seat belts.) Instead, my take from the prosecutor's statement is that she is directing the 2nd degree charge to the driver's failure to call for medical assistance sooner. Purportedly, the driver was aware that Gray was unstable, and asked for help, but chose instead to go on his route to the next arrest. It's a pretty weak basis for 2nd degree. More akin to negligence homicide. Which is why, I suppose, the driver is also charged with manslaughter and vehicular manslaughter.

 

[Bronzeage]

Yes, but do rough rides result in a similarly high risk, much less is it obvious that they result in similarly high risk?
As I said before, I wonder how often such prosecutions are successful.

I don't think it's the "rough ride" the prosecutor is saying amounts to 2nd degree. The prosecutor's statement does not allude to any evidence for that. The statement repeatedly references that Gray was not in a seat belt. But that's really doesn't get you 2nd degree either, as seat belts had been discretionary up until a several days before the incident. Can't say "any idiot would know" no seat belt would lead to injury if injury only happened rarely in the past. (Buses don't have seat belts.) Instead, my take from the prosecutor's statement is that she is directing the 2nd degree charge to the driver's failure to call for medical assistance sooner. Purportedly, the driver was aware that Gray was unstable, and asked for help, but chose instead to go on his route to the next arrest. It's a pretty weak basis for 2nd degree. More akin to negligence homicide. Which is why, I suppose, the driver is also charged with manslaughter and vehicular manslaughter.

Now that there are six police officers charged in the death, we will find out what really happened. At least one of the six will be certain his part in the affair doesn't warrant a murder charge and will make a deal.

If this goes to the common pattern, one (two at the most) officer will found most accountable for the injury. The rest will be hit for negligence and covering up for the others.

 

[Trausti]

I don't think it's the "rough ride" the prosecutor is saying amounts to 2nd degree. The prosecutor's statement does not allude to any evidence for that. The statement repeatedly references that Gray was not in a seat belt. But that's really doesn't get you 2nd degree either, as seat belts had been discretionary up until a several days before the incident. Can't say "any idiot would know" no seat belt would lead to injury if injury only happened rarely in the past. (Buses don't have seat belts.) Instead, my take from the prosecutor's statement is that she is directing the 2nd degree charge to the driver's failure to call for medical assistance sooner. Purportedly, the driver was aware that Gray was unstable, and asked for help, but chose instead to go on his route to the next arrest. It's a pretty weak basis for 2nd degree. More akin to negligence homicide. Which is why, I suppose, the driver is also charged with manslaughter and vehicular manslaughter.

Now that there are six police officers charged in the death, we will find out what really happened. At least one of the six will be certain his part in the affair doesn't warrant a murder charge and will make a deal.

If this goes to the common pattern, one (two at the most) officer will found most accountable for the injury. The rest will be hit for negligence and covering up for the others.

Well, only one of the six was was charged with 2nd degree murder. The driver. Here's the prosecutor's full statement for reference: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/criminal-charges-filed-freddie-gray-death-transcript-article-1.2206744

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Now that there are six police officers charged in the death, we will find out what really happened. At least one of the six will be certain his part in the affair doesn't warrant a murder charge and will make a deal.

If this goes to the common pattern, one (two at the most) officer will found most accountable for the injury. The rest will be hit for negligence and covering up for the others.

Well, only one of the six was was charged with 2nd degree murder. The driver. Here's the prosecutor's full statement for reference: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/criminal-charges-filed-freddie-gray-death-transcript-article-1.2206744

But the other five are still facing ten year prison terms. I'm sure the prosecutor would be more than happy to give one of them a stern warning not to kill anybody again in exchange for having one of the officers involved give a detailed account in the murder trial of the driver. Given the public nature of the case, having that testimony quickly would be worth a lot to the state and all five of them know this.

 

[Trausti]

Well, only one of the six was was charged with 2nd degree murder. The driver. Here's the prosecutor's full statement for reference: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/criminal-charges-filed-freddie-gray-death-transcript-article-1.2206744

But the other five are still facing ten year prison terms. I'm sure the prosecutor would be more than happy to give one of them a stern warning not to kill anybody again in exchange for having one of the officers involved give a detailed account in the murder trial of the driver. Given the public nature of the case, having that testimony quickly would be worth a lot to the state and all five of them know this.

Eh, what I find peculiar is that at no point in the prosecutor's statement does she offer how or when Gray suffered his injury. That's an extraordinary omission in a 2nd degree murder / manslaughter case. Indeed, nowhere are officers faulted for causing injury; the fault lies in their alleged failure to timely get him medical treatment. It's not that they kill him or caused the spinal fracture, it's that they ignored his suffering. The problem is that these charges require a killing. The seems all more for political show than reasoned analysis. Curiously, the best case the prosecutor presents is an assault charge against the bike cops for arresting Gray in the first place. If they didn't have probable cause to arrest him, yeah, that's assault.

 

[Axulus]

But the other five are still facing ten year prison terms. I'm sure the prosecutor would be more than happy to give one of them a stern warning not to kill anybody again in exchange for having one of the officers involved give a detailed account in the murder trial of the driver. Given the public nature of the case, having that testimony quickly would be worth a lot to the state and all five of them know this.

Eh, what I find peculiar is that at no point in the prosecutor's statement does she offer how or when Gray suffered his injury. That's an extraordinary omission in a 2nd degree murder / manslaughter case. Indeed, nowhere are officers faulted for causing injury; the fault lies in their alleged failure to timely get him medical treatment. It's not that they kill him or caused the spinal fracture, it's that they ignored his suffering. The problem is that these charges require a killing. The seems all more for political show than reasoned analysis. Curiously, the best case the prosecutor presents is an assault charge against the bike cops for arresting Gray in the first place. If they didn't have probable cause to arrest him, yeah, that's assault.

How does his head slam so hard against the bolt in the van to sever his spine? Why did the van veer so far off course from dropping him off at the police station (stop 2 and the mysteriously omitted stop 3). These are indicative of the "rough ride" some people have been alleging. There's more to it then what is revealed in the statement.

 

[dismal]

How does his head slam so hard against the bolt in the van to sever his spine?

I mentioned earlier I don't see how it's possible to drive a van in a way that causes a passenger sitting on a side bench to hit the back of his head on a bolt on the rear door with that sort of force.

I wouldn't think a big police van is not going to have all that much acceleration. If it was caused by the bolt I'd bet there was a good chance Gray was standing up and fell backward.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

But the other five are still facing ten year prison terms. I'm sure the prosecutor would be more than happy to give one of them a stern warning not to kill anybody again in exchange for having one of the officers involved give a detailed account in the murder trial of the driver. Given the public nature of the case, having that testimony quickly would be worth a lot to the state and all five of them know this.

Eh, what I find peculiar is that at no point in the prosecutor's statement does she offer how or when Gray suffered his injury. That's an extraordinary omission in a 2nd degree murder / manslaughter case. Indeed, nowhere are officers faulted for causing injury; the fault lies in their alleged failure to timely get him medical treatment. It's not that they kill him or caused the spinal fracture, it's that they ignored his suffering. The problem is that these charges require a killing. The seems all more for political show than reasoned analysis. Curiously, the best case the prosecutor presents is an assault charge against the bike cops for arresting Gray in the first place. If they didn't have probable cause to arrest him, yeah, that's assault.

I don't think so. That's the "depraved heart" aspect of second degree murder.

Say, for the sake of argument, that Gray had this mystery botched spinal surgery which randomly and coincidentally happened to have post op complications while he was in the police van due to no actions that the cops took. If they ignored his suffering while he was in their custody and he ended up dead, then that's negligent homicide at worst and the second degree murder would not be appropriate.

If, however, they had taken him on one of these nickel rides or something similar which caused his injuries then they placed him in a dangerous situation which led to his injury and then ignored his suffering which led to his death. That's second degree murder.

 

[Trausti]

Eh, what I find peculiar is that at no point in the prosecutor's statement does she offer how or when Gray suffered his injury. That's an extraordinary omission in a 2nd degree murder / manslaughter case. Indeed, nowhere are officers faulted for causing injury; the fault lies in their alleged failure to timely get him medical treatment. It's not that they kill him or caused the spinal fracture, it's that they ignored his suffering. The problem is that these charges require a killing. The seems all more for political show than reasoned analysis. Curiously, the best case the prosecutor presents is an assault charge against the bike cops for arresting Gray in the first place. If they didn't have probable cause to arrest him, yeah, that's assault.

How does his head slam so hard against the bolt in the van to sever his spine? Why did the van veer so far off course from dropping him off at the police station (stop 2 and the mysteriously omitted stop 3). These are indicative of the "rough ride" some people have been alleging. There's more to it then what is revealed in the statement.

If there was evidence of what you speculate, it would already be out. The purpose of prosecutor's statement was to detail the alleged factual basis for the charges. You are simply highlighting problems with the prosecution's case.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

How does his head slam so hard against the bolt in the van to sever his spine?

I mentioned earlier I don't see how it's possible to drive a van in a way that causes a passenger sitting on a side bench to hit the back of his head on a bolt on the rear door with that sort of force.

I wouldn't think a big police van is not going to have all that much acceleration. If it was caused by the bolt I'd bet there was a good chance Gray was standing up and fell backward.

Unless he's chained up and bouncing around all over the place due to the way the van's being driven, of course.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

How does his head slam so hard against the bolt in the van to sever his spine?

I mentioned earlier I don't see how it's possible to drive a van in a way that causes a passenger sitting on a side bench to hit the back of his head on a bolt on the rear door with that sort of force.

You must be unfamiliar with the concept of braking.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/braking

I wouldn't think a big police van is not going to have all that much acceleration. If it was caused by the bolt I'd bet there was a good chance Gray was standing up and fell backward.

This is solved by the process known as "slamming on the brakes".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How does his head slam so hard against the bolt in the van to sever his spine? Why did the van veer so far off course from dropping him off at the police station (stop 2 and the mysteriously omitted stop 3). These are indicative of the "rough ride" some people have been alleging. There's more to it then what is revealed in the statement.

If there was evidence of what you speculate, it would already be out. The purpose of prosecutor's statement was to detail the alleged factual basis for the charges. You are simply highlighting problems with the prosecution's case.

For 2nd degree murder perhaps. But seeing how a guy kind of died because of what happened in the Police van... the prosecution may not have that hard of a time pinning some responsibility on the officers involved.

 

[Bronzeage]

I mentioned earlier I don't see how it's possible to drive a van in a way that causes a passenger sitting on a side bench to hit the back of his head on a bolt on the rear door with that sort of force.

I wouldn't think a big police van is not going to have all that much acceleration. If it was caused by the bolt I'd bet there was a good chance Gray was standing up and fell backward.

Unless he's chained up and bouncing around all over the place due to the way the van's being driven, of course.

Maybe the "rough ride" story will collapse under its own weight.

 

[dismal]

I mentioned earlier I don't see how it's possible to drive a van in a way that causes a passenger sitting on a side bench to hit the back of his head on a bolt on the rear door with that sort of force.

You must be unfamiliar with the concept of braking.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/braking

I wouldn't think a big police van is not going to have all that much acceleration. If it was caused by the bolt I'd bet there was a good chance Gray was standing up and fell backward.

This is solved by the process known as "slamming on the brakes".

Laws of physics say braking will not cause someone to hit the back door. Unless you are going in reverse.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

You must be unfamiliar with the concept of braking.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/braking

I wouldn't think a big police van is not going to have all that much acceleration. If it was caused by the bolt I'd bet there was a good chance Gray was standing up and fell backward.

This is solved by the process known as "slamming on the brakes".

Laws of physics say braking will not cause someone to hit the back door. Unless you are going in reverse.

Or forward then reverse. Or swerving side to side and then braking hard. Nobody's claiming that a "rough ride" involves simply braking once.

 

[dismal]

You must be unfamiliar with the concept of braking.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/braking

I wouldn't think a big police van is not going to have all that much acceleration. If it was caused by the bolt I'd bet there was a good chance Gray was standing up and fell backward.

This is solved by the process known as "slamming on the brakes".

Laws of physics say braking will not cause someone to hit the back door. Unless you are going in reverse.

Or forward then reverse. Or swerving side to side and then braking hard. Nobody's claiming that a "rough ride" involves simply braking once.

Law of physics say forward then reverse will not cause someone to hit back door. Law of physics say side to side will not cause someone to hit back door.

Law of physics say forward acceleration will do it. Or deceleration while car moving backward.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

You must be unfamiliar with the concept of braking.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/braking

I wouldn't think a big police van is not going to have all that much acceleration. If it was caused by the bolt I'd bet there was a good chance Gray was standing up and fell backward.

This is solved by the process known as "slamming on the brakes".

Laws of physics say braking will not cause someone to hit the back door. Unless you are going in reverse.

Or forward then reverse. Or swerving side to side and then braking hard. Nobody's claiming that a "rough ride" involves simply braking once.

Law of physics say forward then reverse will not cause someone to hit back door. Law of physics say side to side will not cause someone to hit back door.

Law of physics say forward acceleration will do it. Or deceleration while car moving backward.

What universe are your physics describing? You can fly all over the place as the car stops and the energy is transferred. He could have been against the backdoor and when the force of breaking let up his head could go back into the bolt.

Also if he didn't hit the back door, who slammed his head into the bolt?