Freddie Gray dies a week after being injured during arrest

[Nice Squirrel]

The prosecution's timeline: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...more-police-department-map-timeline.html?_r=0

 

[RavenSky]

The prosecution's timeline: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...more-police-department-map-timeline.html?_r=0

Check the little maps for stops 2 & 3. I have yet to read an explanation for why the police van was over there instead of at the police station.

 

[Rhea]

I don't see the confusion about how he could have his neck broken and also get an injury from the back door. Is it not entirely possible that such a set of injuries could come from a sudden but brief braking followed by acceleration after he is off balance? This gets him rocking and falling into the back door. If he manages to get up, even partly, only to face another sudden braking while on his knees crashing him with even greater force toward the front wall.

The report did not say that the bolt injury was the one that killed him. It said he had a broken neck AND that there was a bolt injury showing that harm occurred inside the van.

Rocked forward by braking, knocked back while off balance from acceleration, fall, hit bolt, get injury, try to get to knees, hard breaking causes forward fall with extended neck (such as fall face-first or chin-first into the forward wall) breaking the neck and causing the fatal injury. Side-to-side jerks merely serve to amplify this scenario making it even more plausible.

Not saying this is certain, but it entirely plausible and fits with the known injuries from teh report.

 

[dismal]

I don't see the confusion about how he could have his neck broken and also get an injury from the back door. Is it not entirely possible that such a set of injuries could come from a sudden but brief braking followed by acceleration after he is off balance? This gets him rocking and falling into the back door. If he manages to get up, even partly, only to face another sudden braking while on his knees crashing him with even greater force toward the front wall.

The report did not say that the bolt injury was the one that killed him. It said he had a broken neck AND that there was a bolt injury showing that harm occurred inside the van.

Rocked forward by braking, knocked back while off balance from acceleration, fall, hit bolt, get injury, try to get to knees, hard breaking causes forward fall with extended neck (such as fall face-first or chin-first into the forward wall) breaking the neck and causing the fatal injury. Side-to-side jerks merely serve to amplify this scenario making it even more plausible.

Not saying this is certain, but it entirely plausible and fits with the known injuries from teh report.

Well, when I brought this up I said it seems like the most likely scenario was he stood up and fell backward into the bolt. This does not require the van driver to provide much acceleration. Just enough to cause him to fall.

Whether this is plausible would depend on the height of the bolt and his ability to stand and other facts not yet available.

 

[Derec]

You can only be thrown in a direction as hard as the vehicle can accelerate in the opposite direction. Large vehicles have some pretty poor acceleration--throwing him hard against the back would be pretty darn hard.

Maybe Baltimore PD bought this van (starting at 3:32).

 

[whichphilosophy]

You must be unfamiliar with the concept of braking.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/braking

I wouldn't think a big police van is not going to have all that much acceleration. If it was caused by the bolt I'd bet there was a good chance Gray was standing up and fell backward.

This is solved by the process known as "slamming on the brakes".

Laws of physics say braking will not cause someone to hit the back door. Unless you are going in reverse.

Or forward then reverse. Or swerving side to side and then braking hard. Nobody's claiming that a "rough ride" involves simply braking once.

Law of physics say forward then reverse will not cause someone to hit back door. Law of physics say side to side will not cause someone to hit back door.

Law of physics say forward acceleration will do it. Or deceleration while car moving backward.

What universe are your physics describing? You can fly all over the place as the car stops and the energy is transferred. He could have been against the backdoor and when the force of breaking let up his head could go back into the bolt.

Also if he didn't hit the back door, who slammed his head into the bolt?

If he bounced off the front hard enough to break his neck hitting the back of the van it doesn't really matter if his neck broke on the second hit because he wouldn't have survived the initial hit.

Unless they backed fast and then stomped on the brakes the driver couldn't have caused him to hit the back with serious force. We do have a report of him banging around in there, though--this could be an accidental self-inflicted wound.

So, your story is that it is more likely--i.e. easier for an individual to throw oneself about the back of a van hard enough to break one's neck--while shackled, no less, than it is to be thrown hard enough by a van accelerating and stopping while you are not confined by a seat belt?

Do tell. Oh, wait: I keep forgetting. Freddie Gray was a black man, and therefore had superhuman strength as well as a desire to do police wrong, even if it meant he might get hurt. We all understand that he wouldn't have been smart enough to have foreseen actually dying of the self inflicted broken neck, being a black man and all.

You can only be thrown in a direction as hard as the vehicle can accelerate in the opposite direction. Large vehicles have some pretty poor acceleration--throwing him hard against the back would be pretty darn hard.

MUCH harder than him throwing his big black man self about with enough force to break his own neck?


How much riding around in the back of trucks and vans without a seat belt have you done, anyway? Any of it with hand cuffs and leg restraints? I realize you can't do anything about the not being black part, so we'll make allowances.

Three of the policemen were black, so it is less likely to do with the fact he is black.
The doctrine of Res Ipsa Loquitur may come up during the trials.
There are so many unanswered questions that it is hard to make an accurate evaluation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/02/u...port-given-to-baltimore-prosecutors.html?_r=0

 

[Will Wiley]

You must be unfamiliar with the concept of braking.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/braking

I wouldn't think a big police van is not going to have all that much acceleration. If it was caused by the bolt I'd bet there was a good chance Gray was standing up and fell backward.

This is solved by the process known as "slamming on the brakes".

Laws of physics say braking will not cause someone to hit the back door. Unless you are going in reverse.

Or forward then reverse. Or swerving side to side and then braking hard. Nobody's claiming that a "rough ride" involves simply braking once.

Law of physics say forward then reverse will not cause someone to hit back door. Law of physics say side to side will not cause someone to hit back door.

Law of physics say forward acceleration will do it. Or deceleration while car moving backward.

What universe are your physics describing? You can fly all over the place as the car stops and the energy is transferred. He could have been against the backdoor and when the force of breaking let up his head could go back into the bolt.

Also if he didn't hit the back door, who slammed his head into the bolt?

If he bounced off the front hard enough to break his neck hitting the back of the van it doesn't really matter if his neck broke on the second hit because he wouldn't have survived the initial hit.

Unless they backed fast and then stomped on the brakes the driver couldn't have caused him to hit the back with serious force. We do have a report of him banging around in there, though--this could be an accidental self-inflicted wound.

So, your story is that it is more likely--i.e. easier for an individual to throw oneself about the back of a van hard enough to break one's neck--while shackled, no less, than it is to be thrown hard enough by a van accelerating and stopping while you are not confined by a seat belt?

Do tell. Oh, wait: I keep forgetting. Freddie Gray was a black man, and therefore had superhuman strength as well as a desire to do police wrong, even if it meant he might get hurt. We all understand that he wouldn't have been smart enough to have foreseen actually dying of the self inflicted broken neck, being a black man and all.

You can only be thrown in a direction as hard as the vehicle can accelerate in the opposite direction. Large vehicles have some pretty poor acceleration--throwing him hard against the back would be pretty darn hard.

MUCH harder than him throwing his big black man self about with enough force to break his own neck?


How much riding around in the back of trucks and vans without a seat belt have you done, anyway? Any of it with hand cuffs and leg restraints? I realize you can't do anything about the not being black part, so we'll make allowances.

Three of the policemen were black, so it is less likely to do with the fact he is black.

Black with mainly white bosses and mainly white colleagues.
How easy do you think it would be for a black cop to buck the system?

 

[whichphilosophy]

You must be unfamiliar with the concept of braking.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/braking

I wouldn't think a big police van is not going to have all that much acceleration. If it was caused by the bolt I'd bet there was a good chance Gray was standing up and fell backward.

This is solved by the process known as "slamming on the brakes".

Laws of physics say braking will not cause someone to hit the back door. Unless you are going in reverse.

Or forward then reverse. Or swerving side to side and then braking hard. Nobody's claiming that a "rough ride" involves simply braking once.

Law of physics say forward then reverse will not cause someone to hit back door. Law of physics say side to side will not cause someone to hit back door.

Law of physics say forward acceleration will do it. Or deceleration while car moving backward.

What universe are your physics describing? You can fly all over the place as the car stops and the energy is transferred. He could have been against the backdoor and when the force of breaking let up his head could go back into the bolt.

Also if he didn't hit the back door, who slammed his head into the bolt?

If he bounced off the front hard enough to break his neck hitting the back of the van it doesn't really matter if his neck broke on the second hit because he wouldn't have survived the initial hit.

Unless they backed fast and then stomped on the brakes the driver couldn't have caused him to hit the back with serious force. We do have a report of him banging around in there, though--this could be an accidental self-inflicted wound.

So, your story is that it is more likely--i.e. easier for an individual to throw oneself about the back of a van hard enough to break one's neck--while shackled, no less, than it is to be thrown hard enough by a van accelerating and stopping while you are not confined by a seat belt?

Do tell. Oh, wait: I keep forgetting. Freddie Gray was a black man, and therefore had superhuman strength as well as a desire to do police wrong, even if it meant he might get hurt. We all understand that he wouldn't have been smart enough to have foreseen actually dying of the self inflicted broken neck, being a black man and all.

You can only be thrown in a direction as hard as the vehicle can accelerate in the opposite direction. Large vehicles have some pretty poor acceleration--throwing him hard against the back would be pretty darn hard.

MUCH harder than him throwing his big black man self about with enough force to break his own neck?


How much riding around in the back of trucks and vans without a seat belt have you done, anyway? Any of it with hand cuffs and leg restraints? I realize you can't do anything about the not being black part, so we'll make allowances.

Three of the policemen were black, so it is less likely to do with the fact he is black.

Black with mainly white bosses and mainly white colleagues.
How easy do you think it would be for a black cop to buck the system?

How do you know their bosses were not black? Many police chiefs are black and other ethnic groups. The prosecutor is black. Does she buck the system too? There are a variety of possibilities that led to the death but there is nothing so far to suggest this was racially motivated even in the unlikely event the court established malice aforethought The US system of media hype for a career prosecutor hardly serves the justice system. The mention of black sells papers and attracts speculation and could possibly influence a jury.

 

[Derec]

Black with mainly white bosses and mainly white colleagues.

Meet Anthony Batts, the Baltimore Police Comissioner and thus their ultimate boss.

And of course he reports to Stephanie "give space to those who wish to destroy" Rawlings-Blake.

How easy do you think it would be for a black cop to buck the system?

System where the buck ultimately stops with a black man and a black woman?
l

 

[dismal]

Mayor is black, prosecutor is black, police chief is black, second in command of police is black, 50% of police force is black, 50% of officers charged in this case are black, van driver is black but clearly it was teh racism what did it.

I wonder if Al Sharpton will come to defend Caesar Goodson given he's a black man many people believe the justice system is screwing over.

 

[Underseer]

Meet Anthony Batts, the Baltimore Police Comissioner and thus their ultimate boss.

And of course he reports to Stephanie "give space to those who wish to destroy" Rawlings-Blake.

How easy do you think it would be for a black cop to buck the system?

System where the buck ultimately stops with a black man and a black woman?
l

Blacks who are accused of a crime are statistically more likely to be convicted, even if the jury is black.

Most of the racism we are trying to deal with is of the subconscious variety.

 

[dismal]

Meet Anthony Batts, the Baltimore Police Comissioner and thus their ultimate boss.

And of course he reports to Stephanie "give space to those who wish to destroy" Rawlings-Blake.

System where the buck ultimately stops with a black man and a black woman?
l

Blacks who are accused of a crime are statistically more likely to be convicted, even if the jury is black.

Most of the racism we are trying to deal with is of the subconscious variety.

Sorry, black people can't be racist.

 

[Rhea]

I thought we had already covered the known data that even black people are included in the tendency to discriminate against people who are black?


Anyway, here's my question of the day...

Why is it that in this day and age EVERY SINGLE police van is not equipped with a camera avec audio? How hard is that? And a tracker device. So simple. I, Cop, prove my innocence because the tracker and camera on my van prove that I did NO SUCH THING.

Wouldn't they all want this? Because they are The Good Guys™?

 

[Axulus]

Mayor is black, prosecutor is black, police chief is black, second in command of police is black, 50% of police force is black, 50% of officers charged in this case are black, van driver is black but clearly it was teh racism what did it.

I wonder if Al Sharpton will come to defend Caesar Goodson given he's a black man many people believe the justice system is screwing over.

Isn't racism impossible for the race that is not in power in this city? Or is the argument that blacks are racist against other blacks?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Well, when the police begin killing innocent white people with abandon then maybe we will all be equal.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Mayor is black, prosecutor is black, police chief is black, second in command of police is black, 50% of police force is black, 50% of officers charged in this case are black, van driver is black but clearly it was teh racism what did it.

I wonder if Al Sharpton will come to defend Caesar Goodson given he's a black man many people believe the justice system is screwing over.

It's the one-drop theory.

One drop of white blood somewhere in the event means it's due to racism.

- - - Updated - - -

Blacks who are accused of a crime are statistically more likely to be convicted, even if the jury is black.

Most of the racism we are trying to deal with is of the subconscious variety.

Is this race or socioeconomic status at work, though?

 

[RavenSky]

I find it interesting that this thread is being derailed into yet another chorus of "it's not racism!!!"

Perhaps someone could point out what claims of racism you are arguing against? TVM

 

[Will Wiley]

Mayor is black, prosecutor is black, police chief is black, second in command of police is black, 50% of police force is black,

If 50% of Baltimore police are black then I stand corrected. How common is that?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I find it interesting that this thread is being derailed into yet another chorus of "it's not racism!!!"

Perhaps someone could point out what claims of racism you are arguing against? TVM

To tell the truth, I am surprised that these people are playing the race card. There was an innocent man that was illegally arrested and mysteriously acquired fatal injury and law enforcement (if they didn't inflict it) did nothing to help him. This could have been any of us. From previous cases the Baltimore Police have severed individual's spines in the past. To automatically blame the victim and support the police officers involved is disturbing. This guy died because of their actions.

 

[laughing dog]

I find it interesting that this thread is being derailed into yet another chorus of "it's not racism!!!"

Perhaps someone could point out what claims of racism you are arguing against? TVM

Some people will say anything to deflect any possible blame from the police. Whether it was racism or not is truly irrelevant: the police clearly acted irresponsibly.