Obama has done it now - Nine Shot dead in church

[Derec]

I do not remember you raising this in the Aurora Shooting thread. This shit is disgusting.

The Aurora shooter had multiple weapons which means he did not have to reload five times. In addition he set off tear gas which impaired his victims' ability to do anything to defend themselves. It was a much better planned attack, that's for sure.

Dude, are you trolling?

No, I just did not care for that preacher.

- - - Updated - - -

Some might very well be surprised to learn that the consequences of our properly-timed negative attitudes can (at times) have an uncanny opposite effect, especially early on in a developing relationship.

It is such arcane and inconsistent rules that are part of the reason I gave up on this game ...

- - - Updated - - -

Derec, fall down.

???

You don't get to tell black people to behave your way in their church. If you don't like it, change the channel.

If they televise their church service on national TV I can critique it as much as I like. Whether or not it's a black church.

And YOU of all people don't get to say shit about how to respect the Emmanuel Nine when you are the one saying they didn't know how to react to being shot at by a sociopath. How respectful do you think that is? Don't answer. it will just another wrong backassward thing that does no good.

I just asked why nobody tried to overpower him when he had to reload five times.

- - - Updated - - -

To which the only legitimate answer is "Not without self-defense training."

Really? Roof was neither bog nor very strong looking. And while he reloaded he was pretty defenseless.

Seeing how he is both black AND a preacher, what makes you think it's a shtick?

Nobody speaks like that normally. It's an affectation.

 

[Ford]

Dude, are you trolling?

No, I just did not care for that preacher.

Neither did the shooter.


Anything else you two have in common?

 

[RavenSky]

Seeing how he is both black AND a preacher, what makes you think it's a shtick?

Nobody speaks like that normally. It's an affectation.

Just curious... how many black church services have you attended?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Really? Roof was neither bog nor very strong looking. And while he reloaded he was pretty defenseless.

Do you think he was using a musket/

 

[Ford]

Nobody speaks like that normally. It's an affectation.

Just curious... how many black church services have you attended?

My guess is the same number of times he's had to charge an armed gunman in the middle of a firefight.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Someone who wanted to live. You underestimate people. We've had PR people, software salesmen, and flight attendants try to overcome murderous hijackers.

And in a case where it's clear the perp intends to kill them all there's no reason not to try to take him down. You don't really need strength, if enough people pile on they'll succeed.

 

[Derec]

Do you think he was using a musket/

Do you really think it would have taken them minutes to overpower him?

 

[Derec]

I'm not asking the question! You are. You are asking why didn't someone do something.

Since when is being in a firefight a prerequisite for asking questions on an Internet discussion forum?

No, they aren't. Only in the twisted text of your post.

Yes, they are consistent. You may disagree with me here but you can't really call them inconsistent.

It is a demand. You are explicitly saying that fewer people would have died if someone had just done something.

And I stand by it. But since the events happened already I can hardly "demand" anything from anyone. But it makes you think how we would act if faced with a similar situation and a chance to act while the perp is reloading.

I don't recall for a second you saying anything about this in the Aurora Theater shooting.

I already responded to your ridiculous comparison with Aurora. The Aurora shooter didn't reload, he had multiple guns including a semi-auto rifle with a 100 round magazine with which he managed to shoot 70+ times before it jammed. And when it happened he just switched to his handgun - he didn't stop to reload. Also he used tear gas to make it more difficult for anybody to do anything.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

did the shooter have a personal motive to kill these people? did the shooter want the world to know he shot these people and that he did so because they were black and he felt black people needed to be stopped?

It's hard to agree that an act is not meant to terrorize when the person who committed the act and the community it was aim at both say it is. Federal authorities as we speak are investigating the crime as both a hate crime and an act of terror.

Loren, why is it so important to you personally that this not be called an act of terror when everyone involved says it is, including the shooter?

I don't see everyone saying it's about terror. I see several on the left trying to misuse the word "terrorism". The guy is a loon trying to start a bigger conflict but that makes him a horribly misguided revolutionary, not a terrorist.

Showing that it's a hate crime doesn't show that it's terrorism, they are separate things.

 

[Derec]

*This post has been completely self-moderated as the appropriate response to properly categorize the post and poster would likely be deemed against Board protocol. As this poster does not wish to be banned, the post is self-moderated and all appropriate, though strongly worded statements regarding the character, needed viability, and worthiness of air usage of the quoted poster have been removed.*[/I]

Veiled personal attacks are still personal attacks. It's fine though, it just shows you have run out of arguments. Or do you wish to repeat "Aurora" a few more times?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You didn't answer the question. Who among this group should have led the charge? We aren't about hypothetical, but actuality. We are not talking about passengers on a plane with no where to run and time to plot and plan together. A dozen people, peaceful people engaged in worship, who without warning find among them a shooter and gunfire.

Who should have led? who should have coordinated? who should have planned? We know who was there, tell me who should have done what?

We don't have the key information--where everyone is.

Whoever is behind him should start it. He reloaded multiple times, when he's reloading whoever is behind him should jump on him and yell for everyone else to pile on.

 

[bilby]

Do you think he was using a musket/

Do you really think it would have taken them minutes to overpower him?

A mediocre musketeer can fire three aimed shots a minute. I can manage four, on a good day. A good musketeer can fire five; I have seen one person manage six.

Modern firearms are much faster to reload than muzzle loading black-powder guns.

You have seconds, not minutes, of respite while someone swaps magazines.

Reality is nothing like Hollywood. You should probably stop pretending it is, unless you enjoy being thought a fool.

 

[Derec]

A mediocre musketeer can fire three aimed shots a minute.

Perhaps but our shooter wasn't a trained musketeer. In fact he wasn't a trained marksman of any sort.

 

[bilby]

A mediocre musketeer can fire three aimed shots a minute.

Perhaps but our shooter wasn't a trained musketeer. In fact he wasn't a trained marksman of any sort.

And his victims were not trained in defending themselves against a shooter.

The suggestion that they could have achieved anything in the time it took Roof to reload is a sick joke. Reality is nothing like you seem to imagine it to be.

 

[Derec]

The suggestion that they could have achieved anything in the time it took Roof to reload is a sick joke. Reality is nothing like you seem to imagine it to be.

And yet it has happened before.
US student disarms Seattle university killer gunman

 

[Ford]

Whoever is behind him should start it. He reloaded multiple times, when he's reloading whoever is behind him should jump on him and yell for everyone else to pile on.

A few years ago, some friends of mine were celebrating a buddy's birthday at a bar when an "active shooter" situation broke out. It was a fight between two groups of people on the patio that turned ugly when one of them pulled a gun and started shooting.


Thankfully none of my friends were hurt, but the one fatality bled out on the car of one guy I knew, and as such he had one helluva time getting it back from the police.


Anyway, after the incident happened I asked my carpool partner (who had a concealed carry permit and always kept a gun in his truck) what he'd have done if he'd been there.


He said he'd have done what he was trained to do in the classes he needed to get his permit. I'm paraphrasing, but it went something like this:


1. Find cover.

2. Get the fuck down.

3. Stay the fuck down.

4. Don't try to be a fucking hero.


And this is what you're supposed to do if you're armed.


I can't imagine there's a single self-defense class or CCW instructor in the country who would tell you that - if you're unarmed and find yourself in an active shooter situation - your best bet is to run towards the guy with the gun.


Maybe one of our resident firefight experts can chime in with their own personal experience at disarming a shooter in the fashion you propose.


I'll wait...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Yes it is. A dozen people in bible study are not a group predisposed to charging armed gunmen.

As Derec pointed out, others do the same. There was an incident in front of the White House some years ago where a man opened up with a gun, and a couple of the fleeing bystanders saw that man was reloading and chose that moment to turn and rush him and take him down. One of those men was even a father of a young child on the spot, I think.

But depending upon who the perp shot first, he might have left old men and women who didn't have the physicality to do so.

Who was shot that night?

• A 45-year-old mother of three, reverend, and high school track coach, Sharonda Coleman-Singleton was killed while attending a prayer group at Emanuel AME Church.
• The call to preach came early for Rev. Clementa Pinckney, who was one of the nine victims fatally shot in the attack. Pinckney, 41, is also a state senator in South Carolina.
• Cynthia Hurd, a librarian, was killed in the shooting, the Charleston County Public Library (CCPL), confirmed Thursday.
• Tywanza Sanders, 26-year-old, was a recent graduate of Allen University in Columbia, South Carolina, and had most recently been working at a barber shop. Sanders died while trying to save his 87-year-old aunt, Susie Jackson. When Roof aimed his gun at Jackson, Sanders asked him to point the gun at him instead, their family member, Kristen Washington told the New York Times. Roof then said, “It doesn’t matter, I’m going to shoot all of you.” Sanders stood between Roof and his aunt to save her, and the first bullet struck him. He was the youngest victim of the shooting, and his aunt, the oldest.
• Myra Thompson, 59, was the wife of reverend Anthony Thompson, who is a vicar at Holy Trinity REC.
• A 70-year-old sexton, who had worked at the church for more than 30 years, was killed in the shooting, her family confirmed to media outlets.
• Daniel Simmons, a ministerial staff member at the church, died in the shooting, his daughter, Arcelia Simmons confirmed to ABC News.
• Depayne Middleton-Doctor, 49, was also one of the victims of the shooting, coroner Rae Wooten confirmed at a press conference on Thursday. The minister was a mother of four daughters. She sang in the church’s choir and spoke at the pulpit with Rev. Pinckney, the Post and Courier reported.
• Susie Jackson, 87, was also a victim of the attack, the coroner confirmed. She was a member of the Eastern Light Chapter No. 360 Order of the Eastern Star, according to a community activist on Twitter. Her nephew, Tywanza Sanders, died when he dived in between her and the shooter to save her. Jackson’s cousin, Ethel Lance, was also a victim of the attack.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jessicasime...of-the-charleston-church-shooting#.eikK6xK9eV

A librarian, a barber, pensioners and preachers.
Pray tell me who among this group should have led the charge?

Someone who wanted to live.

"Wanting to live" and "having the capacity to lead a heroic charge against a gun-toting lunatic" are not generally related qualities.

In point of fact, you'd be a lot more likely to charge the gunman if you DIDN'T want to live and were mostly concerned with protecting someone else's life.

You underestimate people. We've had PR people, software salesmen, and flight attendants try to overcome murderous hijackers.

Which is relatively easy to do when you have several minutes to talk to the people next to you and come with a plan for "How are the shitload of us non-terrorists on this plane going to rise up and overpower the knife-wielding terrorists who are trying to crash this plane into a skyscraper and kill thousands of innocent people?"

Stop playing Call of Duty for a couple of minutes and come at this question from the point of view of a normal person who has never been shot at in their lives. If you think you know what you would actually do in that situation, you're simply lying to yourself.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Since when is being in a firefight a prerequisite for asking questions on an Internet discussion forum?

The density is too high. If you are going to be that aggressively passive aggressive, what in the heck is the point of responding.

It is a demand. You are explicitly saying that fewer people would have died if someone had just done something.

And I stand by it. But since the events happened already I can hardly "demand" anything from anyone. But it makes you think how we would act if faced with a similar situation and a chance to act while the perp is reloading.

Wow... I mean seriously, that is raising the pedantic bar to Olympic height levels.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

No, I just did not care for that preacher.

Neither did the shooter.


Anything else you two have in common?

More than you'd expect.

I think it is is fitting to start off with the group I have the most real life experience with, and the group that is the biggest problem for Americans.

Niggers are stupid and violent. At the same time they have the capacity to be very slick. Black people view everything through a racial lense. Thats what racial awareness is, its viewing everything that happens through a racial lense. They are always thinking about the fact that they are black. This is part of the reason they get offended so easily, and think that some thing are intended to be racist towards them, even when a White person wouldnt be thinking about race.

This just seems so familiar...

A mediocre musketeer can fire three aimed shots a minute.

Perhaps but our shooter wasn't a trained musketeer. In fact he wasn't a trained marksman of any sort.

That explains why he managed to empty 5 magazines and only killed 9 people.

But honestly: how long does it take to swap mags on an automatic handgun? Not that I've ever had to do this during a gun battle, but even with my complete lack of practice I could do it in two to three seconds. If Roof had any practice AT ALL, shave that down to two seconds.

Basically, the only reason the witnesses knew he was reloading was because they saw him slap in a new magazine. You get up out of cover at that point, you're simply volunteering to be the next person shot.

The suggestion that they could have achieved anything in the time it took Roof to reload is a sick joke. Reality is nothing like you seem to imagine it to be.

And yet it has happened before.
US student disarms Seattle university killer gunman

Wonderful comparison in this case since:

1) Shooter was trying to reload a SHOTGUN and
2) Hero was armed with pepper spray

 

[Toni]

The suggestion that they could have achieved anything in the time it took Roof to reload is a sick joke. Reality is nothing like you seem to imagine it to be.

And yet it has happened before.
US student disarms Seattle university killer gunman

All of my uncles were in active service in WWII. Two of my uncles, on separate occasions, were held up at gun point, in home invasions. One uncle was in his early 30's during that incident. His parents, my grandparents were home--it was their home in fact, when they were robbed st hun point on their farm. my incle was still farm boy strong, accustomed to physical lacor and proficient in the use of firearms and personal combat. he allowed the gunman to tie him up along with my grandparents to try to ensure their safety as best he could in the circumstances. He managed to flex enough that it wasnt a long struggle after the gunman left to free himself and my grandparents.

.The other uncle, a life long hunter and farmer as well as a crack shot who won a lot of marksmanship contests, was far more proficient in the use of firearms and by the stories I heard growing up, did all right defending himself outside of war zones as well. He and my aunt were victims of an armed home invasion, with the gunman grabbing up my uncle's guns. My uncle thought he could take the guy down but the guy grabbed my uncle's rifle and shot at him, missing his head by inches.

Both uncles had been soldiers, trained in combat, were relatively young, fit, proficient in the use of firearms. The guns involved were not automatic weapons or even semi automatic. The ONLY thing that prevented their murders and along with them, the murders of my grandparents and aunt , was the fact that their attackers were looking to rob, not kill.

The ONLY thing.

So how many times have have you personally been attacked by a gunman?