Obama has done it now - Nine Shot dead in church

[bilby]

You know this from personal experience, then?

My work also has an emergency plan regarding an active shooter. Rushing the guy is a last resort and only if you think it might be safer than not rushing him. Frankly, even mentioning that option in the plan is more a cover butts kind of thing than an actual expectation.

In our plan it is a last resort. They even state, "you will most likely die, but someone might survive".

I have never worked in a place which had a policy on this issue, and I hope I never shall.

I even worked in the bullion store for a major UK bank, handling bulk cash, and while they did have a plan for what to do in a raid, it was assumed that a) The most likely threat would be the use of disabling chemicals, such as spraying bleach in people's faces; and b) The attackers would not hurt anyone unless they offered resistance.

The idea that someone would just start shooting people just never came up. That is is even a consideration is terrifying to me - it either indicates a seriously dangerous environment, or a seriously dangerous level of paranoia.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In our plan it is a last resort. They even state, "you will most likely die, but someone might survive".

I have never worked in a place which had a policy on this issue, and I hope I never shall.

I even worked in the bullion store for a major UK bank, handling bulk cash, and while they did have a plan for what to do in a raid, it was assumed that a) The most likely threat would be the use of disabling chemicals, such as spraying bleach in people's faces; and b) The attackers would not hurt anyone unless they offered resistance.

The idea that someone would just start shooting people just never came up. That is is even a consideration is terrifying to me - it either indicates a seriously dangerous environment, or a seriously dangerous level of paranoia.

It isn't everyday common in America, but it happens once or twice a year.

 

[Derec]

So to recap. Ultimate responsibility for the Charleston shooting rests on:
1) The victims, for being too cowardly to fight back
2) The Church, for using "bombastic" affectations that whip black people into a frenzy
3) Mumia Abu-Jamal, for poisoning race relations in America
4) Those on the far left who SUPPORT Mumia Abu-Jamal (even those of us who either never heard of him or never really cared)
5) Dylan Roof

That's a vicious straw man and you know it. Nobody is disputing that Dylan Roof is the one to blame for his crimes. Mentioning something else doesn't mean we are discounting that.

Anyone else you want to add to that list, Derec? You haven't mentioned Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton in a while but I'm sure if you put your mind to it you could find a way to blame them too. Dylan Roof also has a list of people he thinks deserve the blame for his massacre; I'm sure he'll be happy to point you in the right direction.

Well neither said anything outrageous concerning this case - yet. If they do I'll post it here because it is relevant to the discussion, not because they somehow caused the massacre.

The first time I heard his name was on a joke in the Daily Show. The second time was a segment on Democracy Now that I skipped because it didn't interest me all that much. I suspect most people on this board had heard of him before, just don't remember having heard of it on account of their not giving a damn. The only reason I remember is because I still chuckle whenever I see a "Free Mumia!" T-shirt (Free Mumia? What a bargain!).

Yes, Democracy Now is disgustingly one of his big supporters. But then again, they support Palestinian terrorism as well.
You know who else is a prominent MAJ supporter? Van Jones, the former Obama White House staffer who now works for CNN. And Obama unsuccessfully nominated Mumia's lawyer for assistant AG.

 

[laughing dog]

That's a vicious straw man and you know it. Nobody is disputing that Dylan Roof is the one to blame for his crimes. Mentioning something else doesn't mean we are discounting that.

What would you think about someone who ignores the following aspects of this tragedy -
1) a racist white man who is welcomed into a historic black church and then proceeds to murder 9 people, and
2)after he is caught, the relatives of the dead publicly forgive him -
and focuses on some boring, irrelevant straw man about a convicted black cop killer and the poster's illusions about alleged "leftist" sympathies towards him?

I'd think it was some pathetic attempt to minimize the discussion about the tragedy, its effects on the living victims and the families of the victims, and its implications for our nation. But that's just me.

Well neither said anything outrageous concerning this case - yet. If they do I'll post it here because it is relevant to the discussion, not because they somehow caused the massacre.

There is ample evidence in this thread that the lack of relevancy will not stop you.

 

[fast]

Edited out

 

[RavenSky]

It is amazing how "forgetful" lefties on here can be. It's not like Mumia Abu Jamal is some obscure case. He was called "the most famous death row inmate" with many supporters, including in Europe (he, a convicted cop killer, is honorary citizen of Paris and a street there was even named after him recently). A supporter of his was nominated by Obama to be assistant AG but the nomination was derailed after even some Democrats refused to vote for him because of his support for the guy people on here claim to never have heard of.
Senate rejects Obama appointment of Debo Adegbile to top civil rights post

I wonder how long will be until Lefties start to suffer amnesia again and who they will forget next.

As far as going to sites like CCC, no need. One can read all about MAJ from his supporters such as:
The Feminist Wire
Democracy Now
Free Mumia lists his supporters as

The movement to free Mumia is large, diverse and is supported by:
heads of state from France to South Africa
Nobel Laureates Nelson Mandela, Toni Morrison, and Desmund Tutu
the European Parliament
distinguished human rights organizations like Amnesty International
city governments from Detroit to San Francisco to Paris
scholars, religious leaders, artists, and scientists
the Congressional Black Caucus and other members of the U.S. Congress
the NAACP
labor unions

Even my former congresswoman, Cynthia McKinney, is one of his supporters as are people listed below:

Some supporters of Mumia Abu-Jamal’s case includes the Nation of Islam leader; Congressman Charles Rangel; Anti-Apartheid leader, Archbishop Desmond Tutu; scholar, Dr. Cornel West; actor and human rights activist Danny Glover; peace advocate and former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clarke and former Green Party presidential candidate and Congresswoman, Cynthia McKinney.

Supporters keeping pressure on for Mumia Abu-Jamal

And yet nobody here ever heard of him. Curious.

You are dangerously close to suggesting that we are lying. I am very sure that you, of all people, would not be choosing to violate TOU so I strongly suggest that you either produce evidence (with a link to the original source) that anyone here has ever defended this oh-so-fucking-famous person, or you can apologize for suggesting otherwise.

 

[Toni]

That's a vicious straw man and you know it. Nobody is disputing that Dylan Roof is the one to blame for his crimes. Mentioning something else doesn't mean we are discounting that.

What's this 'we' bit, Ke-mo sah-bee?

I do consider you to be something of an authority on vicious straw men.

Well neither said anything outrageous concerning this case - yet. If they do I'll post it here because it is relevant to the discussion, not because they somehow caused the massacre.

No one doubts that for one second.

The first time I heard his name was on a joke in the Daily Show. The second time was a segment on Democracy Now that I skipped because it didn't interest me all that much. I suspect most people on this board had heard of him before, just don't remember having heard of it on account of their not giving a damn. The only reason I remember is because I still chuckle whenever I see a "Free Mumia!" T-shirt (Free Mumia? What a bargain!).

Yes, Democracy Now is disgustingly one of his big supporters. But then again, they support Palestinian terrorism as well.
You know who else is a prominent MAJ supporter? Van Jones, the former Obama White House staffer who now works for CNN. And Obama unsuccessfully nominated Mumia's lawyer for assistant AG.

The name still does not ring any bells at all for me. And I'm pretty sure I'm one of those really left wingers you like to go on about.

 

[Toni]

In our plan it is a last resort. They even state, "you will most likely die, but someone might survive".

I have never worked in a place which had a policy on this issue, and I hope I never shall.

I even worked in the bullion store for a major UK bank, handling bulk cash, and while they did have a plan for what to do in a raid, it was assumed that a) The most likely threat would be the use of disabling chemicals, such as spraying bleach in people's faces; and b) The attackers would not hurt anyone unless they offered resistance.

The idea that someone would just start shooting people just never came up. That is is even a consideration is terrifying to me - it either indicates a seriously dangerous environment, or a seriously dangerous level of paranoia.

For my current place of employment, this is a pretty new policy. It isn't something that is expected to be utilized but then, no one expected to see an elementary school shot up, either.


It is pretty sad, actually.

Many years back, I worked for a place that was potentially on the short list for terrorist targets, in a smallish way. That was a bit scary.

 

[bilby]

I have never worked in a place which had a policy on this issue, and I hope I never shall.

I even worked in the bullion store for a major UK bank, handling bulk cash, and while they did have a plan for what to do in a raid, it was assumed that a) The most likely threat would be the use of disabling chemicals, such as spraying bleach in people's faces; and b) The attackers would not hurt anyone unless they offered resistance.

The idea that someone would just start shooting people just never came up. That is is even a consideration is terrifying to me - it either indicates a seriously dangerous environment, or a seriously dangerous level of paranoia.

For my current place of employment, this is a pretty new policy. It isn't something that is expected to be utilized but then, no one expected to see an elementary school shot up, either.


It is pretty sad, actually.

Many years back, I worked for a place that was potentially on the short list for terrorist targets, in a smallish way. That was a bit scary.

It's meant to be scary. There is no point in terrorism if your target population don't get terrified; Nobody pays for security systems they don't feel that they need; and pandering to terrorism by scaring the pants off your constituents is a great way to get elected. So the terrorists, the security forces, and those claiming to oppose terrorism all have a vested interest in scaring you.

The reality is that fear of terrorism does far more damage than terrorists ever managed to do directly. Unless you work for the anti-terrorist branch of a police force or intelligence agency, the best thing to do about terrorism is to ignore it. If the security forces, or anyone else, ask you (or worse, tell you) to make one iota of change to your life because of terrorism or the fear of terrorism, you should oppose their demands. To do otherwise is to become complicit in acts of terror.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

That's a vicious straw man and you know it. Nobody is disputing that Dylan Roof is the one to blame for his crimes.

Did I not list Dylan Roof as one of the people responsible? Clearly he is.

Yes, Democracy Now is disgustingly one of his big supporters. But then again, they support Palestinian terrorism as well.
You know who else is a prominent MAJ supporter? Van Jones, the former Obama White House staffer who now works for CNN. And Obama unsuccessfully nominated Mumia's lawyer for assistant AG.

Ah. So adding Van Jones, Amy Goodman and Barrack Obama to the list of "people responsible for the Charleston Massacre."

Al Sharpton will be pleased you decided to give him a pass.

 

[Toni]

For my current place of employment, this is a pretty new policy. It isn't something that is expected to be utilized but then, no one expected to see an elementary school shot up, either.


It is pretty sad, actually.

Many years back, I worked for a place that was potentially on the short list for terrorist targets, in a smallish way. That was a bit scary.

It's meant to be scary. There is no point in terrorism if your target population don't get terrified; Nobody pays for security systems they don't feel that they need; and pandering to terrorism by scaring the pants off your constituents is a great way to get elected. So the terrorists, the security forces, and those claiming to oppose terrorism all have a vested interest in scaring you.

The reality is that fear of terrorism does far more damage than terrorists ever managed to do directly. Unless you work for the anti-terrorist branch of a police force or intelligence agency, the best thing to do about terrorism is to ignore it. If the security forces, or anyone else, ask you (or worse, tell you) to make one iota of change to your life because of terrorism or the fear of terrorism, you should oppose their demands. To do otherwise is to become complicit in acts of terror.

I have long agreed that the real issue with post 911 was the fear that was generated--by the U.S. government.


My current employer seems to be behaving in a cover its butt fashion. The risk is quite low. Not impossible-nothing is. But quite low.

The place I worked years back: there were very legitimate fears about threats, which is why we had our own mechanism for scanning for bombs in mail and packages, etc. The potential was real. Some credible threats had been received. The security measures we took were laughable these days. Possibly in those days, as well but for certain most would merit eye rolling and snickering now.

I did not live in fear but there was definitely a sense that we needed to exercise caution about who was allowed on premises, packages and mail, and so on.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You know this from personal experience, then?

My work also has an emergency plan regarding an active shooter. Rushing the guy is a last resort and only if you think it might be safer than not rushing him. Frankly, even mentioning that option in the plan is more a cover butts kind of thing than an actual expectation.

In our plan it is a last resort. They even state, "you will most likely die, but someone might survive".

Yeah, it's not a good option but when the shooter is in your midst you don't really have any other options.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And yet nobody here ever heard of him. Curious.

You are dangerously close to suggesting that we are lying. I am very sure that you, of all people, would not be choosing to violate TOU so I strongly suggest that you either produce evidence (with a link to the original source) that anyone here has ever defended this oh-so-fucking-famous person, or you can apologize for suggesting otherwise.

I don't see his statement as a claim of lying, but rather of selective memory. Things that one doesn't want to believe going in one ear and out the other.

 

[RavenSky]

You are dangerously close to suggesting that we are lying. I am very sure that you, of all people, would not be choosing to violate TOU so I strongly suggest that you either produce evidence (with a link to the original source) that anyone here has ever defended this oh-so-fucking-famous person, or you can apologize for suggesting otherwise.

I don't see his statement as a claim of lying, but rather of selective memory. Things that one doesn't want to believe going in one ear and out the other.

Uh huh...

Then you also need to go find, with links back to the original sources, any comments by any of us supporting this Mumia that Derec is insisting we all defend.

The accusation of "selective memory" requires a selection of comments from any of us, so it shouldn't be too difficult for either of you to support Derec's claims.

 

[Toni]

In our plan it is a last resort. They even state, "you will most likely die, but someone might survive".

Yeah, it's not a good option but when the shooter is in your midst you don't really have any other options.

Again, I keep missing your personal experience. I know you are a modest person, but still....

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In our plan it is a last resort. They even state, "you will most likely die, but someone might survive".

Yeah, it's not a good option but when the shooter is in your midst you don't really have any other options.

So how is that applicable to the case of Roof? You keep repeating yourself like a broken record yet seem entirely incapable of explaining how the layout in the area the shooting took place makes anything you said relevant.

 

[SimpleDon]

....</snip>...​

Supporters keeping pressure on for Mumia Abu-Jamal

And yet nobody here ever heard of him. Curious.

I have heard of him. I was going to school in Philadelphia when the crime occurred.

I don't understand either the right's nor the left's obsession with this case. It is pretty cut and dried that he killed the policeman. That was never really in question. It is also no question that the reason that it has become a cause is because of the death penalty, that it is the reason that he fought so hard through the appeals process, that the major failing in the trial, something to do with the charging of the jury and the prosecution's presentation in the penalty phase that depended more on his history as a Black Panther rather than the facts of the case, which were that it wasn't a premeditated murder and shouldn't have been a death penalty case.

The left's obsession stems from the fact that the death penalty was railroaded through and that the defendant is a intelligent, well spoken black man, confirming their biases. The right's obsession stems from the fact that the defendant is an intelligent, well spoken black man, confounding their biases, and, gasp, a Black Panther no less, once a Black Panther always a Black Panther I guess, who fought back against the death penalty, making it look bad, justifiably, because it is barbaric and economically inefficient, each execution costing tens of millions of dollars, as this sorry episode shows.

Excuse me if I have some details wrong, I am only relating what I remember about the case, which was your question. I have no interest in discussing the details of the case. That would only compound this already major derail.

 

[SimpleDon]

Of course. That doesn't work very well when the shooter is in the room with you, though.

You know this from personal experience, then?

My work also has an emergency plan regarding an active shooter. Rushing the guy is a last resort and only if you think it might be safer than not rushing him. Frankly, even mentioning that option in the plan is more a cover butts kind of thing than an actual expectation.

Is it too late in the discussion for me to point out that we don't really have to live in a country where we have to be schooled in what is considered to be the best way to confront a deranged maniac who is armed to the teeth and whishooting to kill perfect strangers because he feels that a few milligrams of melolin makes people into deranged murderers, like himself? That we have chosen to live in such a country.

Especially since the main reason that we have to make it so easy for the deranged to be able to arm themselves so well seems to be so that we don't impede the profit making potential of a few arms manufacturers.