• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

God and freedom

Eric H said:
But why wouldn't you love your neighbour as you love yourself?
Click to expand...
That's not the point, Eric. There's no forgiveness or mercy in eternal damnation, is there?
There's no chance for redemption.
If you regret and truly repent your sins once you're in the lake of fire, you're still fucked.

I believe the world is in the mess it is, because we choose to disobey these commandments.
Click to expand...
So...it's okay if we burn in Hell because it's our fault?
Still not a lot of compassion, forgiveness or mercy, Eric.

A lot of petty revenge. meaningless punishment. Torture with no goal.

No mercy...
 
adding 'ments' to the end does not alter the fact that:

a) One is being commanded to do something; and
b) That command is not possible to obey

If God commands me not to be scared of spiders, on pain of eternal torture, then he is being a dick.

I can pretend not to be scared of spiders. But God knows that I am scared of spiders, and He knows that I am just pretending not to be, and He knows that that is not possible for me to choose not to be scared of spiders.

Equally, I can pretend to love my neighbour as myself. But God knows that I don't love my neighbour, and He knows that I am just pretending to, and He knows that that is not possible for me to choose to love my neighbour.

Somebody who loves spiders, and has pet tarantulas, can look at my fear and gloat, and say 'I believe that your troubles are all down to your arachnophobia'; but that doesn't make the command to not be scared reasonable.

Perhaps you really do love your neighbour as yourself. But if so, you didn't make a conscious choice to do so - love simply doesn't work like that.

Commanding people to do the impossible, with severe punishments for those who fail to obey, is a characteristic of dictatorships. When everyone is guilty of something, the regime can arrest anyone on a whim, and the leader has absolute power. Does the phrase 'we are all sinners' sound familiar?
 
Eric H said:
But why wouldn't you love your neighbour as you love yourself?
Click to expand...
You ask that as if you understand that ordinary humanness often drives love and desire for loving relationships. Do you realize that this suggests an admission that god-beliefs are irrelevant?

I believe the world is in the mess it is, because we choose to disobey these commandments.
Click to expand...
Well, you believe wrong. Our world is a mess because of our ordinary human confusions and misbeliefs about ourselves and the world around us. Beliefs like yours add to the confusion and divisiveness.

bilby said:
If God commands me not to be scared of spiders, on pain of eternal torture, then he is being a dick.
Click to expand...
An irrational psychopathic dick.

Commanding people to do the impossible, with severe punishments for those who fail to obey, is a characteristic of dictatorships. When everyone is guilty of something, the regime can arrest anyone on a whim, and the leader has absolute power. Does the phrase 'we are all sinners' sound familiar?
Click to expand...
This poem seems apropos of the dichotomous delusion of Christian beliefs:
http://michaelrosenblog.blogspot.com/2014/05/fascism-i-sometimes-fear.html
 
bilby said:
If God commands me not to be scared of spiders, on pain of eternal torture, then he is being a dick.
Click to expand...
Esp. as God could conceivably have MADE you (and all of us) not be afraid of spiders (assuming that it's a sin worthy of eternal damnation to be afraid of spiders), or he could have not made weird goddamned creatures with all too many legs, way too many eyes, no heads, and able to be ANYWHERE in a fucking room, including dangling down from the ceiling in the exact middle so you can't even try to avoid them as 'god's own creatures' by staying away from the walls and the furniture, no, you think you're safe and WHISST! There's something brushing your face and it's got a spider...at one end or the other... Somewhere. Probably touching you, or being swung about at the end of the webbing while you scream and wave your hand and fling the damned thing ANYWHERE and then your spouse shouts 'Don't hurt it! It eats moths!' because she's a knitter and between the tubs of yarn and the closets of finished and unfinished products she would rather pet a fucking tarantula than let one miserable moth loose in the house so suddenly you have to put the cricket bat down or YOU'RE the bad guy for wanting to shout 'Hulk Smash Alien Monster!' and then...

Ahem. Um. Yeah. Well, i seem to have strayed a bit from my thesis. But, yeah, God's commandments don't really teach us how to be lovable or how to find something lovable in everyone around us, so it's rather oppressive.
And, Eric, you can SAY you love your neighbor, but you do not approach evolutionary researchers with any sort of emotional generosity, do you? You're sure that everyone who invented the Theory of Evolution is out to get you and your religion, and you use this invented bias on their part to judge their efforts to find and spread the truth as they know it.

Which is not a loving thing to do with people you've never met, who have not said they want to do away with your personal faith.
 
Punishment in a limited and proportionate fashion is a sort of education. Eternal damnation has no purpose for the good of anyone, and therefore cannot be anything other than sadism.

That's why I like the Buddhist POV in these matters (which antecedes both Christianity and Judaism), which is everyone will get saved in the end and that any hell there may be is created by yourself and is only temporary. Karma is, therefore, educative... if it weren't for the absurdity that 99.999% people don't preserve the memories of their past lives and those who supposedly do, not to any significant amount. In any case, that is an absurdity in the explanation but not a crass contradiction in ethic as it is in major Abrahamic religions.

Anyway, hell is crazy. Crazy fiction among fictions.
 
Philos said:
Folks,

The cost is ‘hell’. Now, there is much interpretation and logic chopping about the nature of hell, but one thing we can be sure of, it is a punishment vastly exceeding any earthly sufferings and from which there is no appeal. Can there be dissenters in hell?
Click to expand...
Everyone is hell is a dissenter.
Philos said:
Is there a way out for those who honestly reject the ‘love’ of a jealous God?
Click to expand...
If you mean out of hell - very sadly no.
 
Note that Tigers! has no problem worshiping a god who tortures others infinitely, as long as he is on the honored guest list. This sort of selfish, amoral perspective led me to coin the term 'whoreshiper', and if this is the sort of follower this god seeks, and will infinitely torture the rest, then count me in the dissent category.
 
dockeen said:
Note that Tigers! has no problem worshiping a god who tortures others infinitely, as long as he is on the honored guest list. This sort of selfish, amoral perspective led me to coin the term 'whoreshiper', and if this is the sort of follower this god seeks, and will infinitely torture the rest, then count me in the dissent category.
Click to expand...
I agree. I have no problem with my supposedly God-given choice to not whoreship a crazy bully.
 
Well, if we ignore how stupid Christianity is, believers who have been forgiven of all of their sins at time of death get to spend all eternity in paradise, so even if they aren't free, being subject to the whims of a maniacal, ego-tripping God isn't so bad given the prospect of heaven.

But then, according to the Christian history I'm reading back around 200-400 A.D. Christian leaders couldn't even agree on whether religious leaders should have the ability to forgive sin. Eventually they decided that it would lend itself to the power of the church if they could, and so the ability of Christians to be 'forgiven' of sin is a political ploy that has nothing to do with Jesus or any of his teachings. Taking that a step further, in all actuality this would mean that if you commit sin even once throughout your entire lifetime you will be condemned to hell .. a pretty hard task for a mortal being.

Not sure where I was going with that, but I agree that Christianity as a socio-political system doesn't lend itself to human freedom, if in fantasy land if it were true the lack of freedom would be worth it, though.
 
dockeen said:
Note that Tigers! has no problem worshiping a god who tortures others infinitely, as long as he is on the honored guest list.
Click to expand...
Like you I have a choice as to whether I am on the guest list or not.

dockeen said:
This sort of selfish, amoral perspective led me to coin the term 'whoreshiper', and if this is the sort of follower this god seeks, and will infinitely torture the rest, then count me in the dissent category.
Click to expand...
I'm glad you acknowledge the freedom God has given you.

Shame you have no love or regard for those who disagree with yourself.
 
Consequences are always based on a given set of principles. In the case of God and the issue tolerance, assuming the existence of God, it is God that shapes and forms the set of principles that determines the consequences of dissent. Consequently, it is God who demands obedience by imposing harsh consequences.
 
DBT said:
Consequences are always based on a given set of principles. In the case of God and the issue tolerance, assuming the existence of God, it is God that shapes and forms the set of principles that determines the consequences of dissent. Consequently, it is God who demands obedience by imposing harsh consequences.
Click to expand...

Disobedience always has harsh consequences.
 
Tigers! said:
DBT said:
Consequences are always based on a given set of principles. In the case of God and the issue tolerance, assuming the existence of God, it is God that shapes and forms the set of principles that determines the consequences of dissent. Consequently, it is God who demands obedience by imposing harsh consequences.
Click to expand...

Disobedience always has harsh consequences.
Click to expand...

Only if the disobedient lose; or if their cause is unjust.

History is replete with examples of disobedience that have consequences beneficial to the disobedient; and in some cases, are even beneficial to those who are disobeyed.

The US war of independence springs to mind; as do the early struggles of trades unionists worldwide, and any number of smaller and more mundane struggles for freedom, right down to the myriad abuse victims who finally rebel against the authority of their tormentors.

In fact, the statement "Disobedience always has harsh consequences" is characteristic of totalitarian dictatorships. It was likely a good bit of social control propaganda in the period prior to the inception of governments not based on absolute monarchy. But today it sounds pretty ugly.

Of course, we should expect no less from religions founded in the era of divine right of kings.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom