What do you do about rape?

[Toni]

Really? Just don't rape women or walk them home or something similar: that's all you've got? I mean: thank you all for not being actual rapists but really??

How about stopping assaults when they are going down? I mean: I've done it myself, more than once and I'm not referring to stopping my own. Me, all 5 ft 1.something, something south of 100 lbs often mistaken for a 12 year old me. You know how? Saying STOP. I am sure the glare was pretty intimidating, too. The body language was as intimidating as I could make it, adrenalin helping. But seriously:

You can't shut down 'jokes' about raping a woman? About how much she must like it rough? About how no doesn't really mean no but certainly means yes? Really? THAT is too much effort?

What the fuck is wrong with people? Don't more sober and/or decent individuals of any gender shut down someone who is attempting to take advantage of a more vulnerable person? Even more so if the vulnerable person seems to be uncomfortable or trying to protest or get away? Or is obviously pretty drunk? Really? Crap: it doesn't even need to be particularly confrontational. I can remember being at one of my first parties and the guy who gave me a ride to the party was suddenly trying to stick his tongue down my throat. I was stunned enough that I wasn't sure how to get away and another guy---not my best buddy or a guy I ever dated or who ever wanted to date me saw my distress and simply started talking to aggressive tongue guy about the game and I could recover my composure enough to go find a ride home. Hell, none of us was Jewish but my rescuer and most guys---and girls knew how to be a mensch.

I mean it's not like I'm calling for boycotts of film and television which rely on rape as a plot device rather than actually write for and develop female characters, all the while ignoring the fact that men are also rape victims.

Just: be a mensch.


It's not that hard. Even a woman can do it.

Where the hell do you hang out?

I go out quite a bit and I've never been in a situation where I've seen an assault going down or getting ready to go down. If I did I'd like to think I'd step in and do something.

I feel your frustration but I think taking it out on people that are trying to figure out ways they could help is counterproductive and will make people defensive.

Kinda like I just got. :wave:

So, what part upset you?

The part where I suggested it was possible to stop an assault in progress or an imminent assault. I did it more than once in my college days and have stopped a nasty attempt on another person at work as well as have made sure my presence was known when someone was trying to drag another person off into a car. I live in a college town and unfortunately, there is no shortage of evenings when we keep an ear and eye out for someone screaming and try to make the right judgment call: drunken lover's quarrel? Acquaintance attempt? Stranger? Usually just calling out to leave her alone is enough. Shouting: I've just called the police is always effective. Usually, just knowing there is a witness is enough. Of course, I'm not using my phone to record the assault and egging him on at the same time. Those kinds of things are fueled by alcohol consumption but they are nurtured by people just wringing their hands and saying there's nothing they can do. Or she shouldn't have drunk so much..

Or was it the part where I suggested that just paying attention and speaking up if someone seemed either uncomfortable with what was going down or too out of it to have much of an appreciation for what was going down?

Or the part where I suggested just being a person of honesty, decency and integrity?

Really: don't just wring your hands and say: gee, sorry ladies. That must be awful but what can I do?

You can be a positive role model. You can treat all others with courtesy and respect and not tolerate those who don't. You can teach why it is important to just pass on that extremely drunk girl who seems willing but is stumbling around and slurring her words.

Hugs are nice but it would be nicer to know that men had our back.

 

[The Paul]

In the same way that Christians and Catholics make people feel guilt for "making" Jesus suffer for us, SJWs can at times collectivize guilt.



With respect to guilt, I think that a young man around SJWs can be made to absorb collective guilt about rape and racism and sexism and so on.

Guilt is a different thing from responsibility.

Whenever the concept of "privilege" is introduced, there's a lot of wailing and moaning about how terribly fucking unfair it is that white people should have to feel guilty over it. This occurs well out of proportion with anyone actually suggesting white people should feel guilty over it. Very rarely have I encountered someone suggesting I feel bad about being white.

It's not clear whether or not the speaker in that clip thinks white people should feel guilty regarding white privilege. It's pretty clear she clearly thinks they should accept the responsibility for changing the situation, which is different.

She does say something about "...feeling guilty is not enough," which does kind of imply she considers feeling guilty a default emotional response, but she doesn't laud guilt as noble, she doesn't say anything about it other than to say it's inferior to action.

I suppose if I had to guess as to whether or not she thinks guilt is an appropriate response to being white I'd have to guess that yes, she does, but I still don't think someone's demanded I start feeling guilty for being white. I don't think that's something social justice directly encourages. It seems more like something akin to survivor guilt. If a very empathetic person gets very involved in social justice, if they're constantly witnessing a storm of injustice and suffering from which they are exempt, being exempt from it will probably generate some guilt. That's how people are.

 

[repoman]

Good analysis, The Paul.

I think that this is one of the aspects of that is part of maturation, finding out how you relate to the world socially. Also, for people who are both analytical and empathetic I think that overdo it.

However there are so many people who are anti-intellectual and flippantly anti-empathetic because Fox News or Rush Limbaugh tells them to be. So maybe the SJWs are in part a reaction to that.

The following is a bit self-indulgent, but I think that the fact that I am excessively mulling stuff like this over is that I am missing some basic compassion and connection with people from a maturation process that didn't go as well as possible (some of that my fault and some of it not). But listening as a spectator sport to the debate between the excessive SJWs and the selfish assholes is not a way to try and reclaim some of the "soul" that I have lost along the way or that never fully congealed.

 

[Toni]

Here's a question (after you read the link). Men - what do you do to protect women from being raped?

(yes, of course, men are raped, too. Start your own thread for that, this is about a subset of rape)

Women don't protect women from being raped -- the actions mentioned are all to protect themselves (that is, a single woman, not "women") from being raped (except the buddy system mentioned which is mutual protection).

The main thing I do to reduce the incidence of rape is not rape anyone. It's a novel approach to crime reduction but I find it works for me.

But what I don't do is look at women taking defensive actions and then scream that they are blaming the victim (ie themselves) for taking the protective action.

'Scuse me: woman here. I have described actions I have taken to stop the rape of other women.

 

[Rhea]

For low grade misogynist banter, I am sure I have been guilty of listening to it and saying it myself. The one that comes to mind is "I don't trust anything that bleeds for seven days and doesn't die".

I think that's actually pretty funny and not in a white-palms kind of way but in a holy shit she has super powers kind of way.

I think focusing on people with a lack of conscience is the better idea. How do we fix that?

What kind of coherent social movement can you have about being not exploiting people, not be conscienceless assholes? How do we fix the broken people who are jerks without pushing them further into their shells? Some of them can't be fixed now, but many can. But you can coddle them into being better people, you need to challenge and rebuke them sometimes. But it seems that too many people react to being tactfully called out for their asshole attitudes with rage.

I think this approach can ultimately have great effect.

Compare it to the gay pride movement, wherein the huge increase in "out" gays led to a huge increase in teh number of people who personally knew someone who was gay which led to a huge increase in empathy.

So your comment seems to tap into that same dramatically successful notion.


BE the person who brings up non-rape culture, maybe? In front of people who you think might need some empathy. BE the person who says, "holy shit did you see in the news that guy's video? WTF does he think women OWE him something? How many women run into a guy that talks like that? And for the love of reason, doesn't EVERYONE know that it is not accepted by humans to think that way?"

Or add to the conversation, "If I were that guy's psychiatrist, what an earful he'd get about not understanding human dignity and thinking he's somehow owed a date, or sex, or whatever."

Maybe start being that same empathy-bringer that the "out" pioneers were, in making it clear that dude already knows people who think objectification is wrong, that the normal people understand men aren't owed a damn thing.

Talk about it - men, talk about mysogeny and its horrible effects.

 

[The Paul]

The following is a bit self-indulgent, but I think that the fact that I am excessively mulling stuff like this over is that I am missing some basic compassion and connection with people from a maturation process that didn't go as well as possible (some of that my fault and some of it not). But listening as a spectator sport to the debate between the excessive SJWs and the selfish assholes is not a way to try and reclaim some of the "soul" that I have lost along the way or that never fully congealed.

Well, I don't know what to tell you about that other than I agree that if you feel like you've got shit you need to get together, throwing yourself into a culture war probably isn't going to help you do it.

 

[ksen]

Really? Just don't rape women or walk them home or something similar: that's all you've got? I mean: thank you all for not being actual rapists but really??

How about stopping assaults when they are going down? I mean: I've done it myself, more than once and I'm not referring to stopping my own. Me, all 5 ft 1.something, something south of 100 lbs often mistaken for a 12 year old me. You know how? Saying STOP. I am sure the glare was pretty intimidating, too. The body language was as intimidating as I could make it, adrenalin helping. But seriously:

You can't shut down 'jokes' about raping a woman? About how much she must like it rough? About how no doesn't really mean no but certainly means yes? Really? THAT is too much effort?

What the fuck is wrong with people? Don't more sober and/or decent individuals of any gender shut down someone who is attempting to take advantage of a more vulnerable person? Even more so if the vulnerable person seems to be uncomfortable or trying to protest or get away? Or is obviously pretty drunk? Really? Crap: it doesn't even need to be particularly confrontational. I can remember being at one of my first parties and the guy who gave me a ride to the party was suddenly trying to stick his tongue down my throat. I was stunned enough that I wasn't sure how to get away and another guy---not my best buddy or a guy I ever dated or who ever wanted to date me saw my distress and simply started talking to aggressive tongue guy about the game and I could recover my composure enough to go find a ride home. Hell, none of us was Jewish but my rescuer and most guys---and girls knew how to be a mensch.

I mean it's not like I'm calling for boycotts of film and television which rely on rape as a plot device rather than actually write for and develop female characters, all the while ignoring the fact that men are also rape victims.

Just: be a mensch.


It's not that hard. Even a woman can do it.

Where the hell do you hang out?

I go out quite a bit and I've never been in a situation where I've seen an assault going down or getting ready to go down. If I did I'd like to think I'd step in and do something.

I feel your frustration but I think taking it out on people that are trying to figure out ways they could help is counterproductive and will make people defensive.

Kinda like I just got. :wave:

So, what part upset you?

Did I say I was upset?

The part where I suggested it was possible to stop an assault in progress or an imminent assault. I did it more than once in my college days and have stopped a nasty attempt on another person at work as well as have made sure my presence was known when someone was trying to drag another person off into a car. I live in a college town and unfortunately, there is no shortage of evenings when we keep an ear and eye out for someone screaming and try to make the right judgment call: drunken lover's quarrel? Acquaintance attempt? Stranger? Usually just calling out to leave her alone is enough. Shouting: I've just called the police is always effective. Usually, just knowing there is a witness is enough. Of course, I'm not using my phone to record the assault and egging him on at the same time. Those kinds of things are fueled by alcohol consumption but they are nurtured by people just wringing their hands and saying there's nothing they can do. Or she shouldn't have drunk so much..

Or was it the part where I suggested that just paying attention and speaking up if someone seemed either uncomfortable with what was going down or too out of it to have much of an appreciation for what was going down?

Nope.

Or the part where I suggested just being a person of honesty, decency and integrity?

Well, when guys were doing that itt you jumped in with "that's not enough guys!1!!! Unless you're out there stopping rapes in progress you're doing fuck all!"

So I guess you're pretty awesome for living in the shitty part of town and sticking your head out of the window and yelling at someone every now and then while all of us guys that live in normal areas just try not to be dicks to women when we're out.

Really: don't just wring your hands and say: gee, sorry ladies. That must be awful but what can I do?

Jesus christ.

You can be a positive role model. You can treat all others with courtesy and respect and not tolerate those who don't. You can teach why it is important to just pass on that extremely drunk girl who seems willing but is stumbling around and slurring her words.

Hey, thanks for judging me. I mean I've only raised and taught two boys to have respect for women and then sent them out into the world. I've only kept faithful to the woman I married a couple of decades ago and treat her and her friends with respect and stay sober when we go out so I can keep my eyes open for them.

But I have never stopped a rape in progress so I guess I've really done fuck all.

Hugs are nice but it would be nicer to know that men had our back.

Maybe more of us would if you didn't jump down our throats for not living up to your particular expectations.

 

[Metaphor]

Here's a question (after you read the link). Men - what do you do to protect women from being raped?

(yes, of course, men are raped, too. Start your own thread for that, this is about a subset of rape)

Women don't protect women from being raped -- the actions mentioned are all to protect themselves (that is, a single woman, not "women") from being raped (except the buddy system mentioned which is mutual protection).

The main thing I do to reduce the incidence of rape is not rape anyone. It's a novel approach to crime reduction but I find it works for me.

But what I don't do is look at women taking defensive actions and then scream that they are blaming the victim (ie themselves) for taking the protective action.

'Scuse me: woman here. I have described actions I have taken to stop the rape of other women.

I have never intervened in a rape in progress, because I've never witnessed one in progress.

I've never stopped a murder in progress either. Where's the "what have you done to prevent murder" thread, so that I can be pilloried there, also?

 

[abaddon]

Really? Just don't rape women or walk them home or something similar: that's all you've got? I mean: thank you all for not being actual rapists but really??

...

Really, I think you saw something in people's posts that wasn't there. Consider you're in a discussion board filled with thoughtful and proactive humans… Isn't it a surprise if they REALLY meant by "I don't rape women is what I do" that they don't care and that they turn a blind eye to belligerence and violence? Isn't it MUCH more likely people were just saying "I don't come across it in my life so I don't have opportunities to do much against it"?

 

[Archimedes]

Really, I think you saw something in people's posts that wasn't there. Consider you're in a discussion board filled with thoughtful and proactive humans… Isn't it a surprise if they REALLY meant by "I don't rape women is what I do" that they don't care and that they turn a blind eye to belligerence and violence? Isn't it MUCH more likely people were just saying "I don't come across it in my life so I don't have opportunities to do much against it"?

yeah I'm not sure the logic behind getting riled at people for not having come across a rape in progress and therefore not doing something about it.

The thread seems a bit confused. The quote in the OP is clearly about what people do to actively protect and prevent rape (avoiding groups of men at night, preventing your drink getting spiked, potential weapons to fight off an attack, etc.) so how are men expected to respond to that question put to them. The answer is that when it comes to physically preventing rape, most of us don't do anything (apart from the obvious of not doing it ourselves). No one knew the topic was intended to be about the more general topic of education, raising children, dealing with tasteless rape jokes, etc. or that apparently not having witness a rape and therefore not confronting a rapist is something worthy of criticism.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Really? Just don't rape women or walk them home or something similar: that's all you've got? I mean: thank you all for not being actual rapists but really??

Hey, us men are potential rapists, it takes a lot of work for us to not be actual rapists. This isn't easy!

 

[spikepipsqueak]

With every new person born is a new potential assailant, so without some kind of fundamental change to global socialization, sexual violence is always going to be a problem.

That's why you can stop *a rape* from happening, but you can't stop *rape*.

Each new person born has the potential for both good and evil, and there is every evidence to suggest that those who are violent tend to be those who have been subjected to violence, or witnessed it in a normalising context.

So there's your butter knife. You live your life in the way you want the world to evolve, and imperceptibly move the dial on what we consider normal. Offer even a fleeting experience of kindness and rationality to children who aren't living in optimal circumstances. It increases their options for future behaviour. Their marginally improved behaviour contributes to your ripple effect.

Of course you can stop rape. You refrain, yourself. You discourage rapists and potential rapists, in the short term. You visualise and work towards the sort of society that is a bit more equal and a little less angry.

 

[Toni]

Really? Just don't rape women or walk them home or something similar: that's all you've got? I mean: thank you all for not being actual rapists but really??

...

Really, I think you saw something in people's posts that wasn't there. Consider you're in a discussion board filled with thoughtful and proactive humans… Isn't it a surprise if they REALLY meant by "I don't rape women is what I do" that they don't care and that they turn a blind eye to belligerence and violence? Isn't it MUCH more likely people were just saying "I don't come across it in my life so I don't have opportunities to do much against it"?

I think it depends on if you think the only way to prevent rape is to physically pull the attacker off of the victim.

Personally, I don't believe that. I believe that the fact that someone has the courage to stand up and stay STOP can actually stop assaults in progress because I've done it. But more importantly, I believe that it is possible to stop many rapes by actually preventing rape, by changing the mind set that women don't mean it when they say no, that being drunk just makes you hornier so she really wants it, no matter how much she's puking her guts out. It's possible to promote the idea that everybody should be treated with dignity and respect, that everybody has the right to control his or her own body. That 'humor' and 'entertainment' that depend upon the brutalization or the denigration or rendering of some how less than is really funny or entertaining.

What I see is a lot of: Hey, it's not my problem and I'm doing my share just by not raping anybody.

Sexual assault is a societal problem. It is everybody's problem.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Except it's not every day you can just stumble upon a sexual assault/rape in progress. What exactly do you want us to do? I'm not even sure what this argument is about.

 

[abaddon]

It's possible to promote the idea that everybody should be treated with dignity and respect... It is everybody's problem.

Yes I agree.

What bugs me, among the things I encounter, is how people play topdog-underdog games all-too-much. Sometimes a particularly testosterone-driven male will say "bitch" to denote anyone (male or female) he considers inferior and subservient to himself. So I've already picked "don't say bitch even in 'casual' use, it's hateful against women" as a cause I look for chances to champion. The line to rape might seem a bit tenuous, but I see this as subdued aggression that could explode. So this is the most (now) that I can do to "have your back". And similar things to do with attitude, as expressed in words and images. The narratives we recite in our heads make our worlds. So we need to pick words carefully to improve the world. No more God and follower, no more master and servant… and no more alpha dog and his "bitches" either.

 

[bigfield]

Here's a question (after you read the link). Men - what do you do to protect women from being raped?

(yes, of course, men are raped, too. Start your own thread for that, this is about a subset of rape)

The men were asked what they do to prevent themselves from being raped. Why did you link this and then asked what men on TFT do to protect women?

 

[ksen]

What I see is a lot of: Hey, it's not my problem and I'm doing my share just by not raping anybody.

Yeah, but there's not a lot of that in this thread so I don't understand all the hostility you are pointing towards us unlucky enough to not have stumbled upon a rape in progress.

 

[bigfield]

To answer the OP question irrespective of the tumblr quote:

I look out for my friends. I do not look out for strangers, because I do not have the means to assess their situation, or the means to help them without risking harm to myself.

I call the police when I see violence, but that's about it. I am willing to risk harm or arrest to help my friends, but not a man or woman I don't know.

ETA: I've never had the opportunity to stop a rape in progress, but I suppose that if I saw one in progress, I would try to do something, even if that was merely calling the police. Seems a highly unlikely situation, though.

 

[spikepipsqueak]

What I see is a lot of: Hey, it's not my problem and I'm doing my share just by not raping anybody.

Yeah, but there's not a lot of that in this thread so I don't understand all the hostility you are pointing towards us unlucky enough to not have stumbled upon a rape in progress.

Toni may correct me, but the answer is in her post that you quoted.

We all get the joke of "I don't rape anyone." but if it really stops there, after the joke is laughed at, then it's dismissive.

Toni is talking about mending attitudes, and you are focussing on "I haven't ignored any rapes in progress." and pretending that is discussion about the very different aspect she is talking about.

 

[Terrell]

To answer the OP question irrespective of the tumblr quote:

I look out for my friends. I do not look out for strangers, because I do not have the means to assess their situation, or the means to help them without risking harm to myself.

I call the police when I see violence, but that's about it. I am willing to risk harm or arrest to help my friends, but not a man or woman I don't know.

This is pretty much it right here. If I see violence between people I don't know, I'll call the police as soon as I can do so safely.