Rice family lawyers request DOJ investigation into conduct of prosecutor's office

[RavenSky]

Huh? He doesn't need to go to 23andMe to know what his height and weight were. He had size and build similar to George Zimmerman.

therefore, according to you, a twelve year old child deserved to die.

No Derec, Tamir Rice's size does not excuse the cop that killed him

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Huh? He doesn't need to go to 23andMe to know what his height and weight were. He had size and build similar to George Zimmerman.

Hey Derec, maybe the ADULT and allegedly TRAINED cop is the one who should be cognizant that some children look older than they actually are, and the cop should behave accordingly.

He had to make a decision in a split second given that Tamir went for the waistband, where the gun was.

Speaking of his size and appearance, do we know if the widely circulated photos of Tamir Rice are recent?

Tamir Rice did not "go for his waistband"

 

[Derec]

Yeah, Tamir Rice was so big and scary that an untrained 911 caller identified him as a child.

No, the caller did not identify him as a child. He said "probably a juvenile" which might mean 16 or 17. He certainly did not identify him as a pre-teen!
He also said that the gun was "probably fake" but later that he didn't know if it was fake or not.

In any case, none of this was relayed to the responding cops, probably because the caller was so equivocal about it. Do you think the dispatcher should be brought up on charges as well?

 

[Derec]

therefore, according to you, a twelve year old child deserved to die.

I never said that. I said it was a tragic concatenation of circumstances and mistakes by both sides.

Tamir Rice did not "go for his waistband"

Yes, he did.

Prosecutors decided they couldn't get a conviction after seeing enhanced surveillance footage of the shooting, he said.
It showed the 12-year-old black boy was drawing what turned out to be a pellet gun from his waistband when he was shot, McGinty said.
[...]
It was "indisputable" that the boy was drawing the pistol from his waistband when he was shot, McGinty said earlier this week. He said Tamir was trying to either hand the weapon over to police or show them it wasn't real, but the patrolmen had no way of knowing that.
Assistant county prosecutor Matthew Meyer said it also was telling that the pellet gun was found on the ground after the shooting.
"For it to have fallen on the ground, it would have had to have been in Tamir's hand, which means he would have had to have pulled that gun out," he said.

Prosecutors defend urging no charges in Tamir Rice shooting

Raven, do you also still believe that Michael Brown had his hands up in surrender or that VonDerritt Myers was armed with a sandwich?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

According to the 911 call, "everybody"

. the Officers made a mistake, so did Rice. It isn't murder.

This wasn't murder, but it sure the fuck wasn't a bit of time of desk work either.

Well we agree on that at least. There are those who insist that Tamir did nothing wrong whatsoever.

I suspect the officers will be fired, and the family will get rich.

The Officer hasn't been fired. The Officers are almost never fired from the situations.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I never said that. I said it was a tragic concatenation of circumstances and mistakes by both sides.

This is a false equivalence. The actions and potential errors of a 12 year old, which weren't illegal, should not be equated with the negligence of Police Officers.

Tamir Rice did not "go for his waistband"

Yes, he did.

Prosecutors decided they couldn't get a conviction after seeing enhanced surveillance footage of the shooting, he said.
It showed the 12-year-old black boy was drawing what turned out to be a pellet gun from his waistband when he was shot, McGinty said.
[...]
It was "indisputable" that the boy was drawing the pistol from his waistband when he was shot, McGinty said earlier this week. He said Tamir was trying to either hand the weapon over to police or show them it wasn't real, but the patrolmen had no way of knowing that.
Assistant county prosecutor Matthew Meyer said it also was telling that the pellet gun was found on the ground after the shooting.
"For it to have fallen on the ground, it would have had to have been in Tamir's hand, which means he would have had to have pulled that gun out," he said.

Prosecutors defend urging no charges in Tamir Rice shooting

Raven, do you also still believe that Michael Brown had his hands up in surrender or that VonDerritt Myers was armed with a sandwich?

"Drawing" is a bit of a loaded term. Seeing he could not reasonably be expected to think he'd win a shootout with Officers with a pellet gun, it may be possible he was taking it out in a sense of disclosure.

Conviction isn't possible because it in the second, it can be construed as a threat. But in the context of the entire event, gross negligence led to the 12 year old's death. The additional context is the cold hearted actions of the officers post shooting who did not offer first aid to the now clearly harmless victim of their negligence. And then to add coal to the fire, they detained the 12 year old's sister!

 

[Derec]

This is a false equivalence. The actions and potential errors of a 12 year old, which weren't illegal, should not be equated with the negligence of Police Officers.

You still haven't demonstrated that.

"Drawing" is a bit of a loaded term. Seeing he could not reasonably be expected to think he'd win a shootout with Officers with a pellet gun, it may be possible he was taking it out in a sense of disclosure.

That's exactly what the prosecutor thinks too.

Conviction isn't possible because it in the second, it can be construed as a threat.

So you agree that grand jury's decision is the right one?

But in the context of the entire event, gross negligence led to the 12 year old's death.

Problem being that the mistakes/negligence was distributed across several people, including Tamir himself. Holding anybody criminally responsible for such fractional negligence is very difficult to impossible.

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The Officer hasn't been fired. The Officers are almost never fired from the situations.

Not yet, but the internal disciplinary probe is ongoing. I think firing of at least one of them is highly likely and firing of both has better than even odds.

 

[ksen]

According to the 911 call, "everybody"



Well we agree on that at least. There are those who insist that Tamir did nothing wrong whatsoever.

I suspect the officers will be fired, and the family will get rich.

The Officer hasn't been fired. The Officers are almost never fired from the situations.

And even when they're fired sometimes that doesn't even stick.

Portland must rehire cop fired after killing unarmed man in 2010, court rules

 

[Derec]

It's on you to show that a law was being broken since that's your positive claim. It's not Jimmy's responsibility to show that it's not against the law, i.e. to prove a negative.

No, Jimmy made the positive claim that Tamir broke no laws. He needs to demonstrate that.
A "positive claim" does not necessarily have to be expressed in the affirmative.

 

[ksen]

This is a false equivalence. The actions and potential errors of a 12 year old, which weren't illegal, should not be equated with the negligence of Police Officers.

You still haven't demonstrated that.

I think you meant to say that you haven't proven it was illegal.

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It's on you to show that a law was being broken since that's your positive claim. It's not Jimmy's responsibility to show that it's not against the law, i.e. to prove a negative.

No, Jimmy made the positive claim that Tamir broke no laws. He needs to demonstrate that.
A "positive claim" does not necessarily have to be expressed in the affirmative.

Jimmy's claim was following your claim that Rice did break laws without citing the relevant law you claimed he was breaking.

 

[Derec]

You still haven't demonstrated that.

I think you meant to say that you haven't proven it was illegal.

Those making a positive claim (such as "Tamir did nothing illegal") have the burden of proof.

Jimmy's claim was following your claim that Rice did break laws without citing the relevant law you claimed he was breaking.

No, Jimmy's claim in post #45 came first.

 

[ksen]

I don't believe Rice did anything illegal. Prove it to me.

 

[Derec]

I don't believe Rice did anything illegal. Prove it to me.

I am not a lawyer, and neither did I make a positive claim, but in my layman opinion his behavior would fall under  menacing.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You still haven't demonstrated that.

The second you can demonstrate that the officers witnessed a crime...

"Drawing" is a bit of a loaded term. Seeing he could not reasonably be expected to think he'd win a shootout with Officers with a pellet gun, it may be possible he was taking it out in a sense of disclosure.

That's exactly what the prosecutor thinks too.

Conviction isn't possible because it in the second, it can be construed as a threat.

So you agree that grand jury's decision is the right one?

Are you fucking with me? I've clearly indicated that the law doesn't lead to a killer conviction here. And my problem is that there needs to be a mechanism to offer accountability in cases like this? So you either aren't reading my posts or you are purposefully wasting my time.

But in the context of the entire event, gross negligence led to the 12 year old's death.

Problem being that the mistakes/negligence was distributed across several people, including Tamir himself. Holding anybody criminally responsible for such fractional negligence is very difficult to impossible.

Please see comment regarding false equivalence. You can't hold the actions of a likely confused 12 year old on equal weight with that of Police Officers.

The Officer hasn't been fired. The Officers are almost never fired from the situations.

Not yet, but the internal disciplinary probe is ongoing. I think firing of at least one of them is highly likely and firing of both has better than even odds.

But do you think they should be fired? What would be the appropriate response to the shooting with these two officers based on the rule set at this time?

 

[ksen]

I don't believe Rice did anything illegal. Prove it to me.

I am not a lawyer, and neither did I make a positive claim, but in my layman opinion his behavior would fall under  menacing.

Wikipedia is not the Ohio State legal code.

 

[Derec]

I am not a lawyer, and neither did I make a positive claim, but in my layman opinion his behavior would fall under  menacing.

Wikipedia is not the Ohio State legal code.

It's quoting Ohio legal code.
Btw, Ohio State is a college.

 

[ksen]

Problem being that the mistakes/negligence was distributed across several people, including Tamir himself. Holding anybody criminally responsible for such fractional negligence is very difficult to impossible.

But not evenly distributed as you've been implying.

 

[laughing dog]

Are you sure that waving a pellet gun made to look like a real Colt 1911 by having the orange tip removed is not against any Ohio laws?

Regardless, it is not an executable offense by the state.

He was reportedly warned to be careful because the orange tip was removed and the gun thus looked like a real firearm. He chose to disregard that warning. Now it's somewhat understandable that he was only 12 and he made a stupid mistake, but sometimes stupid mistakes have horrible consequences, even when you are 12. That does not make it murder.

You are right, nothing Tamir Rice did makes it murder, because Tamir Rice is the victim. Yes, he was black and scary but he was the victim. What makes it murder or involuntary manslaughter are the actions of the shooters, not the victim.

It was forgivable due to his age but his decision to play with the gun in public, even after being warned that the gun looked quite realistic, was made over quite more than 5 seconds.

Irrelevant to the issue whether the police officer(s) should be charged.

 

[Derec]

The second you can demonstrate that the officers witnessed a crime...

Are you fucking with me? I've clearly indicated that the law doesn't lead to a killer conviction here. And my problem is that there needs to be a mechanism to offer accountability in cases like this? So you either aren't reading my posts or you are purposefully wasting my time.

So we agree except for your positive claim above.
And there is the mechanism of the internal investigation in place for things that are violating policy/procedure but do not rise to the level of criminal offense.

Please see comment regarding false equivalence. You can't hold the actions of a likely confused 12 year old on equal weight with that of Police Officers.

I did not say there was equivalence, but that his actions contributed.

But do you think they should be fired? What would be the appropriate response to the shooting with these two officers based on the rule set at this time?

Obviously I do not know what the internal policies and procedures are, but I think the driver pulled up too close, so he is more likely to be sacked. The actual shooter doesn't seem to have done anything wrong given the circumstances he was thrust into, but he may be fired as a sacrificial lamb anyway.

 

[Derec]

No Justice No Lebron

LMAO!!!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Tamir Rice did not "go for his waistband"

Yeah, he went for his gun.

Look at the link in the post below yours:

It showed the 12-year-old black boy was drawing what turned out to be a pellet gun from his waistband when he was shot, McGinty said.

Draw on a cop and you're going to get shot. They're not going to take the time to figure out of the weapon is real or not.

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"Drawing" is a bit of a loaded term. Seeing he could not reasonably be expected to think he'd win a shootout with Officers with a pellet gun, it may be possible he was taking it out in a sense of disclosure.

Actually I'm guessing he was trying to dispose of it because he was afraid of the police.