Rice family lawyers request DOJ investigation into conduct of prosecutor's office

[Derec]

What I find odd is that you apparently don't think anything needs to change after a person who was breaking no laws was gunned down by a police officer. That absolutely no accountability is necessary here.

Thinking that something is or isn't murder and thinking that police training needs to improve are two different things.

The driver of the police car made a mistake when he pulled up very close to Tamir. Tamir made a mistake in playing with a realistic looking pellet gun (especially that given his size he was easily mistaken for an adult not playing) and going for it when police pulled up.

 

[RavenSky]

In Georgia a couple if years ago a teenager holding a non-gunlike Wii controller was shot in his own doorstep by a cop who also shot before assessing the situation. No charges for the officer, but also no national news coverage, no protests, no trending Twitter hashtags and no DOJ investigation.

I don't know if the parents or any local officials asked for a DOJ investigation in that case, but the rest of your claim is false.

I wonder why.

Your selective memory

What's wrong with that?--aside from the fact that it was a child doing nothing wrong which even a few seconds to assess would have told the officers.

Tamir did plenty wrong. He played with a realistic looking gun with orange tip removed. He went for his waistband when police pulled up.

he didn't go "for his waistband when police pulled up" and he did not remove any orange tip. As for that stupid excuse for killing a black child, the two police officers who roared up on the scene and starting shooting befor their car had even stopped, they had no way of knowing if there was an orange tip or not. THEY DIDN'T ASSESS THE SITUATION BEFORE KILLING A TWELVE YEAR OLD CHILD!!!!!!

Police did plenty of wrong too - like pulling up too close. But I do not think the wrong police did amounts to murder.

yes, it did.

Solid legal arguments can be made for second or third degree murder (especially given the work history of the shooter). At minimum, involuntary manslaughter should be charged.

 

[RavenSky]

Tamir made a mistake in playing with a realistic looking pellet gun (especially that given his size he was easily mistaken for an adult not playing) and going for it when police pulled up.

Derec still blaming a dead twelve-year-old black child for the actions of the police officers who killed him.

 

[Derec]

Derec still blaming a dead twelve-year-old black child for the actions of the police officers who killed him.

No, I am blaming the dead twelve-year old child for his own actions which contributed to his death.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What I find odd is that you apparently don't think anything needs to change after a person who was breaking no laws was gunned down by a police officer. That absolutely no accountability is necessary here.

Thinking that something is or isn't murder and thinking that police training needs to improve are two different things.

You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You have never suggested any changes to the rules to deal with accountability for the Officers negligence.

The driver of the police car made a mistake when he pulled up very close to Tamir. Tamir made a mistake in playing with a realistic looking pellet gun (especially that given his size he was easily mistaken for an adult not playing) and going for it when police pulled up.

You say that as if it is tit for tat. Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who...

The Officer made a mistake pulling in so close, make a mistake jumping out without any cover, made a mistake in judging the imminent danger to the general public.

We don't know what Tamir was thinking, he was given less than two seconds to actually comply with hastily issued instructions from a bullhorn. The Officers made a cascade of poor decisions. Tamir Rice wasn't breaking any law and knew he didn't have a real gun, so probably, being 12 and all, didn't understand the breadth of the situation that the officers thought he not only had a gun, but was about to use it on the Police. Rice was 12. His error in judgment via about 5 seconds of time to assess the situation is quite forgivable.

The Officers are supposed to be trained. Their errors are less forgivable. Yet, tit for tat, according to you.

 

[Derec]

I don't know if the parents or any local officials asked for a DOJ investigation in that case, but the rest of your claim is false.

Really? The officer was definitely not charged, there were no protests and I am not aware of any trending Twitter hashtags either.

Your selective memory

More like yours.

he didn't go "for his waistband when police pulled up"

Wrong.

and he did not remove any orange tip.

I did not say he did it himself, but he knew it had been removed and he was warned it was dangerous. In addition, he should have been cognizant of his own size and that him waving a realistic looking gun in public would have been perceived as something other than a child at play.

As for that stupid excuse for killing a black child, the two police officers who roared up on the scene and starting shooting befor their car had even stopped, they had no way of knowing if there was an orange tip or not. THEY DIDN'T ASSESS THE SITUATION BEFORE KILLING A TWELVE YEAR OLD CHILD!!!!!!

Again, I agree police made mistakes. But your position that Tamir did nothing wrong is completely untenable.

yes, it did. Solid legal arguments can be made for second or third degree murder (especially given the work history of the shooter). At minimum, involuntary manslaughter should be charged.

Yet a grand jury declined to indict on any charges. I agree a case could possibly be made for manslaughter but not for anything beyond that.

 

[Derec]

Tamir Rice wasn't breaking any law

Are you sure that waving a pellet gun made to look like a real Colt 1911 by having the orange tip removed is not against any Ohio laws?

and knew he didn't have a real gun, so probably, being 12 and all, didn't understand the breadth of the situation that the officers thought he not only had a gun, but was about to use it on the Police.

He was reportedly warned to be careful because the orange tip was removed and the gun thus looked like a real firearm. He chose to disregard that warning. Now it's somewhat understandable that he was only 12 and he made a stupid mistake, but sometimes stupid mistakes have horrible consequences, even when you are 12. That does not make it murder.

Rice was 12. His error in judgment via about 5 seconds of time to assess the situation is quite forgivable.

It was forgivable due to his age but his decision to play with the gun in public, even after being warned that the gun looked quite realistic, was made over quite more than 5 seconds.

 

[ksen]

In Georgia a couple if years ago a teenager holding a non-gunlike Wii controller was shot in his own doorstep by a cop who also shot before assessing the situation. No charges for the officer, but also no national news coverage, no protests, no trending Twitter hashtags and no DOJ investigation. I wonder why.

And yet you seem to think the problem is not that there was no outrage over this incident a killer cop got off scot-free but that there was outrage over the Tamir Rice shooting where a killer cop got off scot-free.

What's wrong with that?--aside from the fact that it was a child doing nothing wrong which even a few seconds to assess would have told the officers.

Tamir did plenty wrong. He played with a realistic looking gun with orange tip removed. He went for his waistband when police pulled up.

lol, like Rice had time to do anything but get hit by bullets and bleed out.

Police did plenty of wrong too - like pulling up too close. But I do not think the wrong police did amounts to murder.

Maybe not first-degree murder but at least a lesser murder charge like manslaughter or something.

 

[RavenSky]

Derec still blaming a dead twelve-year-old black child for the actions of the police officers who killed him.

No, I am blaming the dead twelve-year old child for his own actions which contributed to his death.

No, because as I have already pointed out, Tamir Rice did not remove any orange tip, he did not "go for his waistband", and he did not even have the toy out such that the killer cops could have seen the tip of the toy either way.

Moreover, othwr than the non-visible toy, your biggest excuse for the cop who killed him is pointing out that the twelve year old allegedly looked like an adult. Apparently, according to you, Tamir Rice is also responsible and to blame for his DNA.

 

[ksen]

What I find odd is that you apparently don't think anything needs to change after a person who was breaking no laws was gunned down by a police officer. That absolutely no accountability is necessary here.

Thinking that something is or isn't murder and thinking that police training needs to improve are two different things.

The driver of the police car made a mistake when he pulled up very close to Tamir. Tamir made a mistake in playing with a realistic looking pellet gun (especially that given his size he was easily mistaken for an adult not playing) and going for it when police pulled up.

Yeah, Tamir Rice was so big and scary that an untrained 911 caller identified him as a child.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Are you sure that waving a pellet gun made to look like a real Colt 1911 by having the orange tip removed is not against any Ohio laws?

Who was he waving it at?

and knew he didn't have a real gun, so probably, being 12 and all, didn't understand the breadth of the situation that the officers thought he not only had a gun, but was about to use it on the Police.

He was reportedly warned to be careful because the orange tip was removed and the gun thus looked like a real firearm. He chose to disregard that warning. Now it's somewhat understandable that he was only 12 and he made a stupid mistake, but sometimes stupid mistakes have horrible consequences, even when you are 12.

Okay, so now you are hanging your hat on the fact that he was waving a gun without the orange tip, that the Officers who arrived at the park had no idea about. In fact, they never saw the gun prior to the shooting.

That does not make it murder.

Rice was 12. His error in judgment via about 5 seconds of time to assess the situation is quite forgivable.

It was forgivable due to his age but his decision to play with the gun in public, even after being warned that the gun looked quite realistic, was made over more than 5 seconds.

We are talking about the context of the situation. You seem to be under the delusion that once the 12 year old played outdoors with this gun, his destiny is set, and he will die. I'm speaking about a free will world, where events occurred after he played with the gun.

Where he was barked instructions from a bullhorn and had to fully hear, understand, and comply with immediately in order not to be shot and killed. You want to look at the playbook and say hey... the Officers made a mistake, so did Rice. It isn't murder. What I have been saying is we need to come up with a new designation for these sorts of incidents so that gross incompetence can have some level of accountability, so that in the future when a 12 year old who isn't a danger to anyone else is shot and killed in large part because of mistakes, the Prosecutor can't say 'I can't get a conviction' because there will be some alternative avenue for accountability that will give the family a bit of justice and closure and the community in general, a sense of trust in the Police Department.

This wasn't murder, but it sure the fuck wasn't a bit of time of desk work either.

 

[Derec]

And yet you seem to think the problem is not that there was no outrage over this incident a killer cop got off scot-free but that there was outrage over the Tamir Rice shooting where a killer cop got off scot-free.

Well some outrage consistency would be nice.

lol, like Rice had time to do anything but get hit by bullets and bleed out.

Before he got hit by the bullets he went for the gun which was in his waistband. That's the last thing you want to do in a situation like this.

Maybe not first-degree murder but at least a lesser murder charge like manslaughter or something.

A manslaughter is not a murder charge. It would be a lesser homicide charge.
However, the grand jury decided even against that.

 

[RavenSky]

In addition, he should have been cognizant of his own size

Derec blames a twelve year old for not being "cognizant" of his DNA instead of holding the killer cop responsible.

Hey Derec, maybe the ADULT and allegedly TRAINED cop is the one who should be cognizant that some children look older than they actually are, and the cop should behave accordingly.

 

[ksen]

Again, I agree police made mistakes. But your position that Tamir did nothing wrong is completely untenable.

yes, it did. Solid legal arguments can be made for second or third degree murder (especially given the work history of the shooter). At minimum, involuntary manslaughter should be charged.

Yet a grand jury declined to indict on any charges. I agree a case could possibly be made for manslaughter but not for anything beyond that.

A grand jury where the DA did everything he could to make sure an indictment wouldn't be handed down . . . as happens way too often in cases where a police officer is the target.

 

[Derec]

Who was he waving it at?

According to the 911 call, "everybody"

. the Officers made a mistake, so did Rice. It isn't murder.

This wasn't murder, but it sure the fuck wasn't a bit of time of desk work either.

Well we agree on that at least. There are those who insist that Tamir did nothing wrong whatsoever.

I suspect the officers will be fired, and the family will get rich.

 

[Derec]

Derec blames a twelve year old for not being "cognizant" of his DNA instead of holding the killer cop responsible.

Huh? He doesn't need to go to 23andMe to know what his height and weight were. He had size and build similar to George Zimmerman.

Hey Derec, maybe the ADULT and allegedly TRAINED cop is the one who should be cognizant that some children look older than they actually are, and the cop should behave accordingly.

He had to make a decision in a split second given that Tamir went for the waistband, where the gun was.

Speaking of his size and appearance, do we know if the widely circulated photos of Tamir Rice are recent?

 

[ksen]

Are you sure that waving a pellet gun made to look like a real Colt 1911 by having the orange tip removed is not against any Ohio laws?

It's on you to show that a law was being broken since that's your positive claim. It's not Jimmy's responsibility to show that it's not against the law, i.e. to prove a negative.

Rice was 12. His error in judgment via about 5 seconds of time to assess the situation is quite forgivable.

It was forgivable due to his age but his decision to play with the gun in public, even after being warned that the gun looked quite realistic, was made over quite more than 5 seconds.

I reiterate that an untrained 911 caller was able to: 1) identify that Tamir Rice was a child and 2) that the gun was most likely a toy.

I expect trained police officers to be able to assess a situation better than an untrained 911 caller.

 

[RavenSky]

I did not say he did it himself, but he knew it had been removed...

You dont say it anymore, but it took weeks of confronting g you with the facts before you quit blaming Tamir for that, too. Of course, you STILL blame him for the lack of orange tip even though the cops never saw the toy either way.

 

[Toni]

Huh? He doesn't need to go to 23andMe to know what his height and weight were. He had size and build similar to George Zimmerman.

Hey Derec, maybe the ADULT and allegedly TRAINED cop is the one who should be cognizant that some children look older than they actually are, and the cop should behave accordingly.

He had to make a decision in a split second given that Tamir went for the waistband, where the gun was.

Speaking of his size and appearance, do we know if the widely circulated photos of Tamir Rice are recent?

FFS: Tamir Rice was a 12 year old kid playing in the park. Why on earth would he believe that anyone--anyone at all perceived him as a threat? Especially in the 2 seconds it took the police before they murdered him.

I would feel vastly more sympathy for the police if there were shots fired or even reports of shots fired. There were not. The kid they pulled up on was playing. OBVIOUSLY playing in a park. Even when he had the toy out, none of the passersby seemed even a little disturbed. Remember, we've seen the video.

 

[ksen]

I suspect the officers will be fired, and the family will get rich.

For at least one of the officers you mean fired again since he'd already been fired before being deemed not being able to handle being a cop.

But I suspect neither of the two officers will get fired.