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What do you do about rape?

Perhaps what makes these victims so attractive to would be rapists is the very fact that they are young and not as powerful. Easy access to victims by rapists certainly is a bonus, made greater by implied levels of trust.

Then why is rape of the elderly the exception instead of the rule? Why are grandmas not getting raped as often as teenagers? Teenagers are stronger than elderly women. Elderly senile women may even get easily tricked into thinking you are their long dead husband.

There probably ARE some number of rapes of senile old women, and that is probably mostly if not entirely about power. But rapes of hot young teenagers bursting with sexuality? You don't think sexual desire has a lot more pull there?

Young victims--teenagers, in fact, are most common. That is correct. Black girls are more likely to be raped than white girls. Yet most models and actresses--those you deem as 'most sexually attractive' are not black and are not teenagers. So, what is it that you think makes those victims most attractive to their attackers: that they resemble the images in media? Or that they are close by and can't get away and are less strong--not even full grown, in fact.

I think you are really reaching here. It would be a lot easier to rape a senile old lady than a teenager.

It see to me that most rapists target victims they see as easy to overcome, vulnerable, easy targets less likely to be able to fight back. So, that's what you claim is so sexually attractive that rapists just can't help themselves?

As I said way back in this thread (which provoked Sabine's rant), it isn't an either / or. It isn't mutually exclusive. Both power and sexual desire are probably in play in any given rape, more one factor than the other depending on the circumstances. Rape isn't always just about power. Why is this even controversial to say?
 
Then why is rape of the elderly the exception instead of the rule? Why are grandmas not getting raped as often as teenagers? Teenagers are stronger than elderly women. Elderly senile women may even get easily tricked into thinking you are their long dead husband.

There probably ARE some number of rapes of senile old women, and that is probably mostly if not entirely about power. But rapes of hot young teenagers bursting with sexuality? You don't think sexual desire has a lot more pull there?

Actually, sexual assault of vulnerable adults in group settings is a problem that is only recently being recognized.

Can you explain why about 15 percent of all female rape victims are under 12? Is it that they are 'bursting with sexuality?' Do you think that black girls are more 'bursting with sexuality' than are white girls?


Young victims--teenagers, in fact, are most common. That is correct. Black girls are more likely to be raped than white girls. Yet most models and actresses--those you deem as 'most sexually attractive' are not black and are not teenagers. So, what is it that you think makes those victims most attractive to their attackers: that they resemble the images in media? Or that they are close by and can't get away and are less strong--not even full grown, in fact.

I think you are really reaching here. It would be a lot easier to rape a senile old lady than a teenager.

So you are saying that adolescent black girls are just so hot that they cannot be resisted? I guess that is why advertisers are willing to hire young black girls to promote their products.

If easy is all that it's about, why don't rapists just jerk off?


It see to me that most rapists target victims they see as easy to overcome, vulnerable, easy targets less likely to be able to fight back. So, that's what you claim is so sexually attractive that rapists just can't help themselves?

As I said way back in this thread (which provoked Sabine's rant), it isn't an either / or. It isn't mutually exclusive. Both power and sexual desire are probably in play in any given rape, more one factor than the other depending on the circumstances. Rape isn't always just about power. Why is this even controversial to say?

You are ignoring rage. And mixing up causation. Rapists get a sexual charge out of exerting domination and control, fueled by rage. It isn't the victim but the act of rape.

Also you are ignoring research cited upthread and quoted, in which researchers determined that rapes were caused by rage or desire for control and that sexual release served either of these and was not the driving motivation.

- - - Updated - - -

Rape isn't always just about power. Why is this even controversial to say?
i have never understood this either - i've half-jokingly always chalked it up to a collective delusion perpetuated by homosexuals and women who can't abide by the fact that this is just a thing that some men do.

Rape just happens? Because a certain subset of guys just can't control themselves, especially around young black girls?

Wow.
 
Rape just happens? Because a certain subset of guys just can't control themselves, especially around young black girls?

Wow.
basically? yes.
it's the same reason murder happens or theft happens or corporate banking fraud happens - things exist, some people want it, and don't care if they are following the rules of society in order to get it.
(though, side note, i would say that there are a not insignificant number of instances where it's not about not being able to control themselves, but rather controlling themselves very well in a way that is very bad for other people)

while i wouldn't question that the end result for the victim can be a complex web of a myriad of emotions and psychological harm, i think that by and large the projections that most people try and put on the motivations of the perpetrators reveal far more of a desperate attempt to rationalize away simple biology than they do about any useful or accurate information regarding why some people do the things they do.
 
Do you think that black girls are more 'bursting with sexuality' than are white girls?
are you trying to suggest there is a correlating effect by which you can blame black girls for being rapeable?
it seems odd to try and pin that side of the conversation on victimology when it seems to me it would be appropriate to look at who is raping black girls and work backwards to figure out the victim profile.

So you are saying that adolescent black girls are just so hot that they cannot be resisted? I guess that is why advertisers are willing to hire young black girls to promote their products.
comes back to the question of whom it is that's raping black girls, and whether or not that demographic has any significant overlap with the consumer demographics which advertisers tend to focus on.

If easy is all that it's about, why don't rapists just jerk off?
why does someone ride a bike instead of ride a bike machine?
why does someone go river kayaking instead of using a rowing machine?
why would someone go to europe instead of looking at pictures of europe?
why would someone eat food instead of just ingesting a liquid nutrition formula?

You are ignoring rage. And mixing up causation. Rapists get a sexual charge out of exerting domination and control, fueled by rage. It isn't the victim but the act of rape.
which flies directly in the face of near every known instance of sexual assault - there is almost always some form of victim selection, it's rare that victims are completely random and don't conform to some kind of type that can be tied to the perpetrator's preference.

Also you are ignoring research cited upthread and quoted, in which researchers determined that rapes were caused by rage or desire for control and that sexual release served either of these and was not the driving motivation.
i for one call utter bullshit on these studies - or at least, on the conclusions of these studies.
 
Oh boy, these stats you cite really hurt your case.

Toni said:
According to the DOJ Bureau of Justice Statistics, most males who attempt sexual assault or rape against female victims are white guys (70%)
70% is for "sexual assault" of all types, while actual rape is closer to 55% whites, which means whites are under-represented among rapists, whereas blacks are more likely to commit both rape and sexual assault.
and most are over the age of 30.
Exactly. Rapists average 31 years old, while victims average 23 years old, just like the youth seeking men driven by sexual attraction in consensual sexual relationships.

Alcohol and/or drug use was involved in only about 40 percent of the cases.
Only????? Are 40% of the population intoxicated at any given time?? 40% is high and indicates that rape, just like consensual sex, is made more likely by or in the context of alcohol consumption which has been shown to have a positive causal impact on sexual desire, attempts at sexual behaviors (though often unsuccessful due to physio effects), and sexual risk taking.


Most attackers are known to the victim to some degree
Sure. Science shows that familiarity increases attraction and that they kind of people your are sexually attracted to are also the kind more likely to be in your social circles.

but most are not intimate partners.
And most women that men have a sexual desire for are not their intimate partners (note that this is true even when one has high attraction to their partner).

Perhaps what makes these victims so attractive to would be rapists is the very fact that they are young and not as powerful. .
Like I predicted, you certainly tried to invent a post hoc rationalization to squeeze the notion of “power” in there, which is easy given how unfalsifiably vague the meaning of “power” and its “use” is in the theory your defending. However, it is a completely superfluous and baseless assumption that add nothing to the explanatory power of a theory . "Young" is the only thing needed to explain the sexual attraction. There is a mountain of evidence that “young” impacts sexual desire and that research has infinitely more scientific validity than anything supporting a power theory of rape. Also, your insertion of the power concept here doesn’t even make sense in terms of the larger power theory. Controlling a person that has no power doesn’t give the controller power or the sense of power. IF I sit on a dead lion, am I “dominating” it? No. I am dominating it when it is alive and well and powerful and seeking liberty and yet I control it and cage it and punish or reward it at my will and against its expressed will. As pseudoscience tends to do, your power theory just arbitrary contorts vague terms to fit whatever facts are there. IF more socially powerful women were more likely to get raped, we can be certain that all proponents of the power theory would hold that fact up as proof of their theory, but since the opposite is largely true, they hold that up as proof of the theory. In fact, I have no doubt that other proponents of your theory would have given just the opposite rationalization that you did, and said “Younger women have more sexual power in society, so men want to rob them of it.” That is the beauty of unscientifically untestably vague notions, they make no clear predictions so they can never be wrong. Lest someone actually buy into my made up mocking rationalization about youth = power, it is an absurd circularity. A young woman’s sexual power cannot be the cause of the sexual desire, if that power is only derived from the greater sexual desire that men have for younger wome

Young victims--teenagers, in fact, are most common. .

Not quite. Young but sexually developed and mostly sexually active adult women age 18-21 are the most likely targets followed by women 22-24 and older “teenagers” 16-17.
Black girls are more likely to be raped than white girls. .

Yes, because black men are more likely to be rapists than white men (as with every other violent crime), and sexual attraction tends to be stronger within than between racial groups (85% of rapes occur within racial group). The same is true for economic class where almost all raped occur within class. As with every other stat your put forth, these are what is predicted by influence of sexual desire on rape targets, because they are consistent with the well established facts related to normal sexual attraction and its influences. Yet the power theory is mute at best on these fact, and if anything, a viable theory put power and dominance as the sole driving force would predict just the opposite of the fact, namely that those seeking dominance over others would seek out members of other social and economic classes and status.
Yet most models and actresses--those you deem as 'most sexually attractive' .

(those that research has shown are trigger the most sexual arousal in most males within the US population to which all these stats refer)
[most models] are not black .
No, of course not, and neither are most rape victims. Most victims are white, it is just that white women are proportionately less likely to be raped than black women because rapist tend to rape women within their race (which is also who they are more attracted to), and black men are proportionately more likely to rape than white men.
[Models] and are not teenagers.
REALY???!!!!! You’re going to pretend that you and nearly every advocate of the power theory of rape don’t also think (and find it objectionable) that models are selected and groomed to be or look like teenage girls? What nonsense. I don’t believe for a second that you buy your own argument here. If you don’t think that about models, then you should because it is a rare opportunity for you to be on the side of objective fact. Again, most rape victims are late teens and young adults and that is very much the age of most models (especially those used in the most sexual marketing campaigns), and those older than 24 are usually selected for looking younger and they all go to great lengths to appear within that age range. And this all happens not because they make millions off of doubtingt’s preferences, but because sex sells and sells most to the most men when its sex with young women, including late teens.
So, what is it that you think makes those victims most attractive to their attackers: that they resemble the images in media? .
You have the causality backwards. Most of the women using sex to sell in the media are selected because they are what most men find sexually arousing. IOW, there is no directly causal link between the type of women in media and the type that are raped. They are both (partially) the byproduct of the type of women that men are sexually aroused by.
Or that they are close by and can't get away
Yes, proximity matters, and for reasons having nothing to do with power. Poximity simply makes it easier and like every single other human action, the easier it is, the more likely a person is to do it. To the extent that it matters for any other reason, that is more likely to be sexual attraction than power since experimental research shows a causal impact of familiarity on attraction and your more familiar with who is in your proximity.
and are less strong--not even full grown, in fact. .
Can you show me some data that 18-24 year old women are slower and weaker than women over 50 that they are 4 times more likely to be raped than?? Also, are 16 year olds slower and weaker than the 14 year old that they are twice as likely to raped than? If there is a correlation between physical power of women and rape, it is a positive one due to sexual desirability being related to the same ages that tend to also be stronger and faster. But that’s an indirect relation so it would be modest at best. Like I said, your power theory is so unscientifically untestable that I am sure you can just flip your rationalization and somehow make a desire for power lead rapists to target more physically powerful women.

It seems to me that most rapists target victims they see as easy to overcome, vulnerable, easy targets less likely to be able to fight back?

No, the evidence clearly shows that this is false. Females that are either younger or older than the most common victims would be slower (easier to catch if they run) and physically weaker. The targeted age span contradicts your prediction of targeting weaker women but fits very well with a sexual arousal influence and at least a partial influence of normal factors on sexual arousal. IF your power theory were true, than the OP scenario wouldn’t even be news because raping of the elderly would be commonplace and more common than the rape of 20 year olds. Besides, wanting an easy target is not evidence or power desire, it is far more consistent with just about every other type of desire, including sexual. You want to have sex with them for whatever reason and you don’t want them to get away, gouge your eyes out, or rip your dick off. Rape so often involves young drunk women because the young part makes them sexually desirable and the drunk part makes the “easy” (both in the sense of more willing and easier to overpower if not).
 
There probably ARE some number of rapes of senile old women, and that is probably mostly if not entirely about power. But rapes of hot young teenagers bursting with sexuality? You don't think sexual desire has a lot more pull there?

"Sexual desire" has an awfully neutral connotation to it. Maybe you'd get more leeway if you called it "sexual objectification"? Maybe elderly women are less likely than women in their sexual prime to be viewed as a sort of prize that men want to possess. I don't think she could really argue that the tendency to view women as an attractive set of parts to the point of de-emphasizing their agency doesn't play a role here.
 
Why, granny panties, of course. Phhhhhhhhhhhrow!!
Slut.
Again, what was granny wearing? Here is a classic case of power over the victim not sexual urges.

Its a classic case of ideologues who don't care about real evidence focussing on an anecdotal cases and disregarding the fact that this case is the rarity of this exception proves the rule. It is identical to those who point to their 100 year old grandpa who smoked 2 packs a day his whole live as evidence that "lung cancer is not about smoking".

80% or rape victims are under 31 years old, and females 16-19 are 4 times as likely to get raped as the rest of the population, and women over 50 are 10 times less likely to be raped than women 20-50.. I wonder why that is??? I'm sure it is pure coincidence that those age ranges are also who non-rapists are more sexually attracted to and that's why they get all of the modelling work and actress jobs. It can't be because younger women are more sexually attractive to most men and that the very same factor that makes men want to have consensual sex with them also impacts the desire to target them for rape? No, that is far too simple, parsimonious, rational, and consistent with the fact that rapists are humans impacted mostly by all the same things normal humans are. I'm sure there is some post-hoc invented bullshit excuse that could be invented to make it seem like the it is somehow a greater show of "power" to rape an 19 year old than a 40 year old.

So great, you can claim this case as one in which power was the driving force and not sexual attraction, so long as you use the same reasoning to admit that the vast majority of rapes conform to a pattern of age-of-victims that is better predicted by sexual arousal and attraction playing a critical role in victim selection.

According to the DOJ Bureau of Justice Statistics, most males who attempt sexual assault or rape against female victims are white guys (70%) and most are over the age of 30. Alcohol and/or drug use was involved in only about 40 percent of the cases. Most attackers are known to the victim to some degree but most are not intimate partners.

Perhaps what makes these victims so attractive to would be rapists is the very fact that they are young and not as powerful. Easy access to victims by rapists certainly is a bonus, made greater by implied levels of trust.

Young victims--teenagers, in fact, are most common. That is correct. Black girls are more likely to be raped than white girls. Yet most models and actresses--those you deem as 'most sexually attractive' are not black and are not teenagers. So, what is it that you think makes those victims most attractive to their attackers: that they resemble the images in media? Or that they are close by and can't get away and are less strong--not even full grown, in fact.

It seems to me that most rapists target victims they see as easy to overcome, vulnerable, easy targets less likely to be able to fight back. So, that's what you claim is so sexually attractive that rapists just can't help themselves?

A deep hatred for women in general and close kin in particular. A rapist may have had a hard time growing up under a strict disciplinarian mother, sister, teacher or even father. Their victim may or may not have a resemblance to the mother. There was a case which names escape me at the minute where a serial killer and psycho first killed his mother then had sex with the corpse then finally decapitating it. His other victims all resembled his mother. He was raping and killing his mother over and over again.
 
I find that keeping my penis in my pants is a really excellent way for me to stop rape. In fact it would work for all men.

Works for me as well.

Does it do anything to protect the people in your world from other penises?
What can a person do to prevent rape by others?
Or is that not worth discussing?
 
I find that keeping my penis in my pants is a really excellent way for me to stop rape. In fact it would work for all men.

Works for me as well.

Does it do anything to protect the people in your world from other penises?
What can a person do to prevent rape by others?
Or is that not worth discussing?
Of course it worth discussing (What can a person do to prevent rape by others?). But the OP seemed (to me at least) to be talking 1st person singular. The best thing I can do to prevent rape is keep my penis clothed. And as I noted it would work for all men too.

I am in favour of harsher penalties for rape, Show society and the rapists that we take seriously the violation of others. The pitifully inadequate sentences handed out in Australasia are not likely to deter or scare rapists.
Maybe castration or death might be worth trying.
 
"Sexual desire" has an awfully neutral connotation to it.

You mean it isn't rife with subjective moral judgment? Yeah, we're talking about a rational scientific explanation for rapes, so the causal factors should sound "neutral" and not sound like an effort to invent an explanation to cast negative moral judgment on the rapist or a "rape culture".
 
This entire thread disregards one of the most important problems facing humanity: everyone alive exists as a dichotomous organism, split between a decision making agency, and an impulse driven animal. Every animal is unique, and every agency has a different level of control over the animal. Some humans have little to no control or awareness of or over the animal. Others are just ignorant to the fact they have a choice. Others have poorly constructed models which do not acknowledge the real relationship going on in the arrangement. As a result, we have people who act like animals and can't not; it's not about teaching those humans to not rape; their intellect is on the wrong end of the leash for that to work. Instead of controlling their impulses, it will be used to justify them: "she was drunk, she was slutty, she was asking for it". As long as people like that are out there, these justifications will be made regardless of their truth value or education.

The best you can do in this situation is identifying the animals, and educating the rest. And of course doing what is necessary to not be the one that gets "got". When there will be targets hit, be a hard one. It doesn't mean we stop funding animal control, it means we also encourage people to learn how to behave when animals attack.
 
Rape isn't always just about power. Why is this even controversial to say?
i have never understood this either - i've half-jokingly always chalked it up to a collective delusion perpetuated by homosexuals and women who can't abide by the fact that this is just a thing that some men do.

Homosexuals?
specifically, of the stuffy/effeminate sort that get socially active and try to downplay certain unfortunate potentials within male biology.
gay men and women are the only types i've ever seen try to really push the whole "rape has nothing to do with sex" line of bullshit - which is not to say that i don't think there are straight men who also try to peddle that, but i've never seen one get as uppity about it.

(countdown for jokodo or laughindog to post something self righteous and show the exception that proves the rule in 3... 2... )
 
Rape isn't always just about power. Why is this even controversial to say?
i have never understood this either - i've half-jokingly always chalked it up to a collective delusion perpetuated by homosexuals and women who can't abide by the fact that this is just a thing that some men do.

Homosexuals?
specifically, of the stuffy/effeminate sort that get socially active and try to downplay certain unfortunate potentials within male biology.
gay men and women are the only types i've ever seen try to really push the whole "rape has nothing to do with sex" line of bullshit - which is not to say that i don't think there are straight men who also try to peddle that, but i've never seen one get as uppity about it.

(countdown for jokodo or laughindog to post something self righteous and show the exception that proves the rule in 3... 2... )

This is confirmation bias at its best. You have a thread in which you acknowledge there's at least two straight men arguing for rape being primarily about power (there's more: check up on Bronzeage's posts, and as far as I can tell Togo's and Perspicuo's), out of - how many people in total arguing that position? - no more than ten, probably; and yet you say "gay men and women are the only types [you]'ve ever seen try" and handwave about exceptions that "prove the rule" when in this thread alone straight men represent a double-digit percentage, and possibly close to half of the people arguing that position.
 
"Sexual desire" has an awfully neutral connotation to it.

You mean it isn't rife with subjective moral judgment? Yeah, we're talking about a rational scientific explanation for rapes, so the causal factors should sound "neutral" and not sound like an effort to invent an explanation to cast negative moral judgment on the rapist or a "rape culture".

To my ear, there's a difference betweeen "sexual desire" and "sexual objectification" that goes beyond connotations of moral judgement.

Sexual desire is focussed on a person. You don't just want to have sex, you want to have sex with that person. You may or may not find the other person intriguing in non-physical ways, but at least you imagine sex with them to be good.

Sexual objectification is first and foremost about yourself. The other person figures essentially an instrument for enhanced masturbation.

Now, you're talking about 30-somethings picking young (20-ish) victims, and say that's in line with general patterns of sexual attraction. It's obvious that what you mean with sexual attraction is objectification. I'm not claiming that I'm immune to objectifying young women. A 19-year-old can be sexy, in a nice-to-look-at kind of way, and looking at her might turn me on. But I know that a 35-year-old is more likely to know what she wants, to be able to communicate it, to know how to please me, and many other things that are bound to make the experience more pleasurable for both of us. And so does every other 30-something man. So, to the extent that man our age are sexually attracted to very young women, it's almost exclusively in the objectification sense.
 
Primarily about power? They have been saying it is exclusively about power, and that everything else flows from the power motive. Go read the posts again.
 
Primarily about power? They have been saying it is exclusively about power, and that everything else flows from the power motive. Go read the posts again.

What if? That doesn't change the fact that prideandfall's handwaving about a double-digit percentage as "exceptions that prove the rule" is a textbook example of confirmation bias.
 
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