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Do we have any Trump supporters here?

Ford said:
Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
But she voted for it.
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Yes, she did. As did 76 other Senators and 297 Representatives. So pinning the blame on her for the Iraq War is a bit off base. And while she (and all those other folks) voted in favor, she was not involved in the conduct of the war. That was all Executive Branch. Bush ordered the invasion, and his administration handled (or rather, failed utterly to handle) the subsequent occupation.
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But she didn't challenge it. She just went along with the flow. There were senators and house members who openly opposed it. If she had the courage of her convictions she'd have voted against it. However, that assumes she has courage or convictions.
 
Trausti said:
Ford said:
Yes, she did. As did 76 other Senators and 297 Representatives. So pinning the blame on her for the Iraq War is a bit off base. And while she (and all those other folks) voted in favor, she was not involved in the conduct of the war. That was all Executive Branch. Bush ordered the invasion, and his administration handled (or rather, failed utterly to handle) the subsequent occupation.
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But she didn't challenge it. She just went along with the flow. There were senators and house members who openly opposed it. If she had the courage of her convictions she'd have voted against it. However, that assumes she has courage or convictions.
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Would you rather she did like most of the Republicans and continue to insist that the vote was the right thing to do, despite all evidence to the contrary?
 
Trausti said:
Ford said:
Yes, she did. As did 76 other Senators and 297 Representatives. So pinning the blame on her for the Iraq War is a bit off base. And while she (and all those other folks) voted in favor, she was not involved in the conduct of the war. That was all Executive Branch. Bush ordered the invasion, and his administration handled (or rather, failed utterly to handle) the subsequent occupation.
Click to expand...

But she didn't challenge it. She just went along with the flow. There were senators and house members who openly opposed it. If she had the courage of her convictions she'd have voted against it. However, that assumes she has courage or convictions.
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It wasn't a vote to invade.

It was a vote to allow the boy genius GW to invade at will.

A stupid thing to do but not a vote to invade.
 
untermensche said:
Trausti said:
But she didn't challenge it. She just went along with the flow. There were senators and house members who openly opposed it. If she had the courage of her convictions she'd have voted against it. However, that assumes she has courage or convictions.
Click to expand...

It wasn't a vote to invade.

It was a vote to allow the boy genius GW to invade at will.

A stupid thing to do but not a vote to invade.
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Correct. It gave GW the authority but the caveat was that he was supposed to exhausted all diplomatic avenues first. He didn't. That's on him and his administration - not on her or any of the other Senators (not even the ones I don't like :D)
 
Ford said:
Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
But she voted for it.
Click to expand...

Yes, she did. As did 76 other Senators and 297 Representatives. So pinning the blame on her for the Iraq War is a bit off base.
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I don't believe I said that at all, but I will say now that she is indeed partly responsible. You need to hold your politicians accountable and admit when they are to be held responsible (partly) along with the others who were responsible.

Ford said:
And while she (and all those other folks) voted in favor, she was not involved in the conduct of the war. That was all Executive Branch. Bush ordered the invasion, and his administration handled (or rather, failed utterly to handle) the subsequent occupation.
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The problem wasn't that the Iraq war was mishandled, but instead that it was wrong to begin with.
 
Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
Ford said:
Yes, she did. As did 76 other Senators and 297 Representatives. So pinning the blame on her for the Iraq War is a bit off base.
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I don't believe I said that at all, but I will say now that she is indeed partly responsible. You need to hold your politicians accountable and admit when they are to be held responsible (partly) along with the others who were responsible.
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The problem with assigning responsibility to her is that it (IMO) takes away from the culpability of those who actually launched the war. When things were going swimmingly, the Bush administration was damned proud of the work they'd done. They owned the war in a "President landing on an aircraft carrier and declaring victory under a Mission Accomplished banner" sort of way.

When it went south and the insurgency was in its last throes for a couple years, the right was very quick to remind everyone that Hillary Clinton voted for the war. Was she the only one? Hardly. But she was the only one mentioned. The war became deeply unpopular and Bush along with it, but alongside Bush has always been Karl "take your own candidate's weakness and try to pin it on your opponent" Rove. He did his job. The "well, Hillary Clinton voted for the war" thing has stuck so well and for so long that it is an issue in this campaign 8 years later. We're talking about Hillary's vote. Not Mitch McConnell's vote or Lindsey Graham's vote or any other Republican Senator at the time.


Which is fine for the Republicans, who would be more than happy to have Iraq declared "the war Hillary Clinton voted for" and walk away. Repeating the talking point helps them get this done.


The problem wasn't that the Iraq war was mishandled, but instead that it was wrong to begin with.
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It was both. It was a bad idea to being with AND was mishandled from the get-go. Out of all the people who bear a share of the responsibility, Clinton is the only one that comes to mind who has said their vote was wrong. When it comes to Iraq, we've got the folks like Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the rest of the architects of the failed policy who will never admit they were wrong. We've also got the Bernie Sanders camp that can say "see, I told you so" from here until eternity. You've also got the Donald Trump's of the world who - being unaccountable for any votes - will say anything. The first gang isn't taking responsibility for making the wrong decision. The second doesn't have any responsibility to take, and Trump is just generally irresponsible.

Clinton - whatever else you can say about her - has taken responsibility for her vote. If she were here she'd tell you "you're right, Don. It was a mistake." She's said it publicly and repeated it often.
 
Ford said:
Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
But she voted for it.
Click to expand...

Yes, she did. As did 76 other Senators and 297 Representatives. So pinning the blame on her for the Iraq War is a bit off base. And while she (and all those other folks) voted in favor, she was not involved in the conduct of the war. That was all Executive Branch. Bush ordered the invasion, and his administration handled (or rather, failed utterly to handle) the subsequent occupation.
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Seh's the only one of them still running for president so there's that.
 
If You Tell Me You Are Supporting Trump, I Already Know Seven Things About You:

That’s the thing that really bothers me, though. I respect people who hold convictions, even if they are different than mine, but Trump supporters don't really believe in anything. They are authoritarian-prone sheep who will justify anything Trump says or does. Unfortunately, once you decide to sell your soul, there is no limit to how low you will go. Kimmel proved this in a bit that was both funny and horrible. He had someone ask Trump supporters on the street about the surprises on Trump's fictitious tax returns. Trump supporters vigorously defended everything they thought he did--writing off his wives as entertainment expenses, buying Putin a tiger, donating large sums of money to Jared Fogle—nothing they could come up with remotely bothered any of them.

Now, I will always be nice, but I won’t respect you. How could I? Suffice it to say, if you tell me you are in the tank for Trump, please end your conversation there. I already know everything I need to know about you.
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http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/...g-Trump-I-Already-Know-Seven-Things-About-You
 
RavenSky said:
If You Tell Me You Are Supporting Trump, I Already Know Seven Things About You:

That’s the thing that really bothers me, though. I respect people who hold convictions, even if they are different than mine, but Trump supporters don't really believe in anything. They are authoritarian-prone sheep who will justify anything Trump says or does. Unfortunately, once you decide to sell your soul, there is no limit to how low you will go. Kimmel proved this in a bit that was both funny and horrible. He had someone ask Trump supporters on the street about the surprises on Trump's fictitious tax returns. Trump supporters vigorously defended everything they thought he did--writing off his wives as entertainment expenses, buying Putin a tiger, donating large sums of money to Jared Fogle—nothing they could come up with remotely bothered any of them.

Now, I will always be nice, but I won’t respect you. How could I? Suffice it to say, if you tell me you are in the tank for Trump, please end your conversation there. I already know everything I need to know about you.
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http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/...g-Trump-I-Already-Know-Seven-Things-About-You
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I dislike Trump too and all, but when exactly did Trump donate to Fogle? Was it before or after the conviction?
 
GenesisNemesis said:
RavenSky said:
If You Tell Me You Are Supporting Trump, I Already Know Seven Things About You:



http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/...g-Trump-I-Already-Know-Seven-Things-About-You
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I dislike Trump too and all, but when exactly did Trump donate to Fogle? Was it before or after the conviction?
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He didn't (so far as anyone knows). His followers were told that he had donated to Fogle's legal defense fund, and they blindly defended it.

Kimmel proved this in a bit that was both funny and horrible. He had someone ask Trump supporters on the street about the surprises on Trump's fictitious tax returns.
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I am still rooting for Trump. Go Trump Go. I want him to win that election and burn the whole system and maybe nation to the ground. Wooo wah!
 
bleubird said:
http://www.redstate.com/brandon_mor...inese-steel-american-giving-millions-dollars/
Read and weep trumpsuckers.
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In that article it claims that Trump bought steel from China and that China took a loss on the sale so that they could drive American businesses under. I presume the price for the Chinese steel was cheaper than the American steel and since China took a loss on the deal that essentially means that, thanks to Trump, China is subsidizing infrastructure in the US.

I'm no fan of Trump, but there is a reason market economies are the preferred economic system throughout the world. If China wants to give you free steel, why would you say no?
 
zorq said:
bleubird said:
http://www.redstate.com/brandon_mor...inese-steel-american-giving-millions-dollars/
Read and weep trumpsuckers.
Click to expand...

In that article it claims that Trump bought steel from China and that China took a loss on the sale so that they could drive American businesses under. I presume the price for the Chinese steel was cheaper than the American steel and since China took a loss on the deal that essentially means that, thanks to Trump, China is subsidizing infrastructure in the US.

I'm no fan of Trump, but there is a reason market economies are the preferred economic system throughout the world. If China wants to give you free steel, why would you say no?
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The Chinese have been dumping steel below the market price into the US for years.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-steel-idUSKCN0Y82ER

CHINA DENIES FLOODING MARKETS

While a flood of cheap Chinese steel has been blamed for putting some overseas producers out of business, China denies its mills have been dumping their products on foreign markets, stressing that local steelmakers are more efficient and enjoy far lower costs than their international counterparts.

China has also denied there are any inducements in place that encourage steelmakers to sell their products overseas, saying trade flows are determined by the market.

The article also mentions that Chinese Steel mills are getting tax concessions from the Beijing government to enable them to compete unfairly with other suppliers.
 
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