Fear of God - It's what makes us nicer: Study

[Eric H]

It's so entertaining that one could almost miss the fact that it is a total change of subject that in no way relates to the post it is supposedly in response to.

I think my response answers in a way that relates to the thread title, 'Fear of God - It's what makes us nicer: Study'

The fear and love of God, provides the motivation and encouragement, to go out on the streets late at night and help people. You referred to a pollyannaish personal reinterpretation, and my understanding of your response was to say, that we look for the good in all people, including those who we perceive to be hooligans, who are punching the living daylights out of each other.

 

[Eric H]

With charity, who decides how much, how long, how many "neighbors". There will always and always and always be yet another neighbor in need.

You are right, there are always more neighbours in need, and that has to be because we do not treat each other fairly. It is not right that twenty thousand children should die every day as a result of grinding poverty and preventable disease.

If you take care of one, but not the other is it hellfire for you? If you only have enough to support yourself, are you in trouble with your god for not giving it away anyway? Way too many variables.

If you live in fear of God and hellfire, you can struggle with all those questions. To be a part of the solution you have to try and do something.

I am quite certain "Hindus, Muslims, Christians Sikhs and everyone else" do not describe their gods as you describe yours. So either they have their gods and you have yours, or a bunch of you are wrong about the nature of your god, or no gods exist. Since you are discussing the nature of the god of your bible, and not any of the Hindu gods, I will refer to it as "your god"

I can't talk for all religions, but I assume most religions believe in a God that created the universe and life, all that is seen and unseen. We are all a part of God's wonderful creation, we each have a duty to care for God's creation, that has to mean caring for each other, despite our differences. We are all just temporary custodians of whatever we might own, the sustainability of mankind depends on what we can pass on to our children and grandchildren's generations.

I believe that the fear of God helps us focus our minds on the needs of others.

 

[Lion IRC]

Over in another thread numerous atheists are proposing that there is no real way to ascertain an objective definition 'greatest being'.

Every being is 'great' in its own way. One person's 'great' is another person's non-great..etc

For the same reasons, wouldnt the similar atheist argue that there is no such real thing as 'nice'?
Atheist say...hell isn't nice. The bible isn't nice. Christians arent 'nice'. God isn't 'nice'.

But that's just a subjective opinion which is either;
- wrong because God is the objective judge of 'niceness.
- irrelevant because I don't care about any subjective opinions apart from my own.
- self-refuting and circular because calling someone "not nice" is not nice.

 

[Angry Floof]

Over in another thread numerous atheists are proposing that there is no real way to ascertain an objective definition 'greatest being'.

Every being is 'great' in its own way. One person's 'great' is another person's non-great..etc

For the same reasons, wouldnt the similar atheist argue that there is no such real thing as 'nice'?
Atheist say...hell isn't nice. The bible isn't nice. Christians arent 'nice'. God isn't 'nice'.

But that's just a subjective opinion which is either;
- wrong because God is the objective judge of 'niceness.
- irrelevant because I don't care about any subjective opinions apart from my own.
- self-refuting and circular because calling someone "not nice" is not nice.

Yes, it's true that "nice" is relative, but there is a lot we can agree on in near-universal terms. We're all human. It's never going to be perfect. We will always be using nature and our intelligence and experience to strive to improve. We have to constantly question. This is called "conscience." Relying on magical beings from tales cooked up by ancient peoples taken literally equates to forfeiting your own conscience.

 

[Lion IRC]

Conscience = moral intuition = soul = moral compass there by God.

 

[Angry Floof]

Conscience = moral intuition = soul = moral compass there by God.

Which God have you handed your conscience over to?

This is useful for the rest of us to know so we can be aware of what superstitions and beliefs are driving your behavior (since your own conscience doesn't do that).

 

[RavenSky]

You are right, there are always more neighbours in need, and that has to be because we do not treat each other fairly. It is not right that twenty thousand children should die every day as a result of grinding poverty and preventable disease.

If you take care of one, but not the other is it hellfire for you? If you only have enough to support yourself, are you in trouble with your god for not giving it away anyway? Way too many variables.

If you live in fear of God and hellfire, you can struggle with all those questions. To be a part of the solution you have to try and do something.

I am quite certain "Hindus, Muslims, Christians Sikhs and everyone else" do not describe their gods as you describe yours. So either they have their gods and you have yours, or a bunch of you are wrong about the nature of your god, or no gods exist. Since you are discussing the nature of the god of your bible, and not any of the Hindu gods, I will refer to it as "your god"

I can't talk for all religions, but I assume most religions believe in a God that created the universe and life, all that is seen and unseen. We are all a part of God's wonderful creation, we each have a duty to care for God's creation, that has to mean caring for each other, despite our differences. We are all just temporary custodians of whatever we might own, the sustainability of mankind depends on what we can pass on to our children and grandchildren's generations.

I believe that the fear of God helps us focus our minds on the needs of others.

So you are not going to answer my actual questions

 

[DrZoidberg]

I can't talk for all religions, but I assume most religions believe in a God that created the universe and life, all that is seen and unseen. We are all a part of God's wonderful creation, we each have a duty to care for God's creation, that has to mean caring for each other, despite our differences. We are all just temporary custodians of whatever we might own, the sustainability of mankind depends on what we can pass on to our children and grandchildren's generations.

Well...I've studied various religions extensively. Yes, they're all like this. Why? Because we're all human. Caring about each other are human instincts. That is what we mean when we talk about "a social species". All social species care about each other.

I think this is the reason why these are universal rules for all religions. They are universal rules for all humans. Even to the people who break the rule. Unless there's something physically wrong with the brain, we all believe this. Religion has a way of appropriating things we already take for granted, re-brand them as whatever the religion is, and claim that religion is what leads to this positive behaviour. Wich we won't. God adds nothing and if we lose God we lose nothing.

I believe that the fear of God helps us focus our minds on the needs of others.

I think it's the other way around. God gets in the way. It just adds another layer. I live in Sweden. Religion is pretty much dead here. Last year I was a volunteer at a homeless shelter called Convictus. There's no religion to be found. They've actually banned all religious practice from their shelters. The reason? It led to conflicts. Banning it made life easier for everybody.

I'm still a volonteer helping homeless people. I'm an atheists. Quite a militant one. Why do you think I help homeless people? Hint: it isn't fear of God.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Over in another thread numerous atheists are proposing that there is no real way to ascertain an objective definition 'greatest being'.

Christians claim this themselves. That's what the "ineffibility" of God means.

All Abrahamic doctrine rests on this rather silly structure:

1) God is mysterious and ineffible
2) Therefore this that and the other.

This is hedging your bets. These are Barnum phrases. In philosophy we call this "not philosophy at all".

But that's just a subjective opinion which is either;
- wrong because God is the objective judge of 'niceness.
- irrelevant because I don't care about any subjective opinions apart from my own.
- self-refuting and circular because calling someone "not nice" is not nice.

Thomas Aquinas made a big fuss about God being objectively the nicest being in the universe and we could work this out. So you're saying, "no"?

 

[Eric H]

I'm still a volonteer helping homeless people. I'm an atheists. Quite a militant one. Why do you think I help homeless people? Hint: it isn't fear of God.

Volunteering is so rewarding, whatever your motivation might be; I am still pleased that you choose to help others less fortunate.

Kind regards

Eric

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'm still a volonteer helping homeless people. I'm an atheists. Quite a militant one. Why do you think I help homeless people? Hint: it isn't fear of God.

Volunteering is so rewarding, whatever your motivation might be; I am still pleased that you choose to help others less fortunate.

Kind regards

Eric

That was my point. Helping others is rewarding in of itself. Therefore being religious, obviously, isn't necessary in making us help each other. I'm pretty sure it doesn't make us more generous. If anything it makes us help each other less. Because of in-group, and out-group behaviour. I think it's great that you've been able to dedicate yourself to helping others in spite of your religious affliction. Great! You're a shining example to all those religious people who just suck.

edit: btw, the vast majority of those I help are highly religious illegal immigrants. Mostly Christians. It's mostly west Africans and Gypsies/Roma. I think it is interesting that these people cling to their religion so fervently. I think that explains a lot what religion is for. Hint, it isn't for getting us to help each other.

 

[untermensche]

Nobody fears god.

They may fear some mental construction. Some figment of their imagination.

It takes meeting a god to fear one.

 

[Eric H]

That was my point. Helping others is rewarding in of itself.

I meet a number of youngsters who are out of work, often they have a habit of smoking weed, and they seem depressed. I try very hard to encourage them to volunteer for something, just so they have a reason to get out of bed before midday. I volunteered in a large garden at a day centre for people with disabilities. There is an amazing man with a vision of what the garden could look like. He is a staunch atheist, he had broken his back in an accident and was told he would never walk again. Landscaping means using a pick axe, spade and wheelbarrow, he was doing this from his wheelchair, he could walk like a penguins for short distances, and you could see his determination to keep going. There are just so many reasons to encourage youngsters to help this guy.

Therefore being religious, obviously, isn't necessary in making us help each other. I'm pretty sure it doesn't make us more generous. If anything it makes us help each other less. Because of in-group, and out-group behaviour. I think it's great that you've been able to dedicate yourself to helping others in spite of your religious affliction. Great! You're a shining example to all those religious people who just suck.

Likewise, I think it's great that you've been able to dedicate yourself to helping others in spite of your atheist affliction. I feel that helping others gains meaning, when you willingly help the opposition.

edit: btw, the vast majority of those I help are highly religious illegal immigrants. Mostly Christians. It's mostly west Africans and Gypsies/Roma. I think it is interesting that these people cling to their religion so fervently. I think that explains a lot what religion is for. Hint, it isn't for getting us to help each other.

You might be helping people like my mother and grandparents, they fled Smyrna with half a million refugees in 1922, when it was burnt down by the Turks. They had a hard life for about twenty years wondering around the Middle East, before ending up in Britain during the Second World War.

 

[DrZoidberg]

You might be helping people like my mother and grandparents, they fled Smyrna with half a million refugees in 1922, when it was burnt down by the Turks. They had a hard life for about twenty years wondering around the Middle East, before ending up in Britain during the Second World War.

That's how I see it to. There's so much randomness to life [1]. When I'm working with these people I try to keep in mind that it could have been me. It's easy to be a good person when life is easy. Not so easy when it isn't. I don't pray for help. I do something about it.

Also... isn't the fact that you have to go and go out of your way to help people just more evidence that, if there's is a God, that God isn't a good God?

[1] which is more evidence that there is no God.

 

[Eric H]

That's how I see it to. There's so much randomness to life [1]. When I'm working with these people I try to keep in mind that it could have been me.

The majority of people who pay rent or have a mortgage; are only ever about three months away from being homeless. If you have an accident, loose your job or your relationship breaks down and you can't keep up the payments, you can start on the slippery slope to eviction.

It's easy to be a good person when life is easy. Not so easy when it isn't. I don't pray for help. I do something about it.

I find action with prayer to be helpful, I can't pray for a solution, then sit back and leave it all in God's hands, I have to do something. There does not seem to be a great difference between us, we both recognise the needs of others and try and do something. We live in hope for a more caring society.

Also... isn't the fact that you have to go and go out of your way to help people just more evidence that, if there's is a God, that God isn't a good God?

[1] which is more evidence that there is no God

If everybody was healthy and had everything they needed, then they would not need your help, and you would not have to bother caring about them. The fact that most people have needs, gives us the opportunity to care - or not.

I feel that faith in God helps me to care in profound ways. I believe I was unfairly sacked from my job that I had been doing for ten years. I never had a day of sick, I did a lot of the jobs other people seemed afraid to do, caring for people with challenging behaviour.

That was about six years ago, but I have now done about fifteen hundred hours of voluntary work for the people who sacked me. At minimum wages I have probably given them about £10,000 of my time. Every now and then, I come into contact with the people responsible for my sacking, I feel it is better to forgive and feel at peace.

I had a phone call from them Yesterday, they need someone to drive their mini bus and could I help? So I shall now be taking a group of them to a nature reserve today, life is strange.

 

[bilby]

The majority of people who pay rent or have a mortgage; are only ever about three months away from being homeless. If you have an accident, loose your job or your relationship breaks down and you can't keep up the payments, you can start on the slippery slope to eviction.

It's easy to be a good person when life is easy. Not so easy when it isn't. I don't pray for help. I do something about it.

I find action with prayer to be helpful, I can't pray for a solution, then sit back and leave it all in God's hands, I have to do something. There does not seem to be a great difference between us, we both recognise the needs of others and try and do something. We live in hope for a more caring society.

I find action without prayer to be helpful too.

Indeed, if action is helpful, with or without prayer; and prayer without action is not helpful (as you appear to be aware), then what is the point of the prayer part of all this?

Prayer is a waste of time.

Holding grudges is also a waste of time, and I am happy to hear that you are able to avoid doing that - but I am perturbed by your apparent linking of that forgiveness to your faith; I am able to forgive people without any reference to faith at all.

It seems to me that you are a good, kind and caring person, who (for no apparent reason) believes that your religious faith is somehow responsible for your goodness, kindness and compassion. Given that you clearly are aware that faith without these things are valueless; and given that it is trivially easy to observe people of different faiths and of no faith at all who embody these noble qualities, I am at a loss as to why you attribute your goodness to this irrelevant faith.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I find action with prayer to be helpful, I can't pray for a solution, then sit back and leave it all in God's hands, I have to do something. There does not seem to be a great difference between us, we both recognise the needs of others and try and do something. We live in hope for a more caring society.

That was also the finding of Imhotep, the pharao Djosers physican and all round genius. He found that when battle physicians combined prayer with (what we today would identify as practicing medicine) wounds healed faster. Before this they'd only done the prayers.

Of course, in modern medicine, we no longer expect doctors to perform elaborate magical rituals and invoke incantations while sterilizing a wound. Perhaps the magical spells weren't necessary, even in Imhotep's time?

Why not do a little scientific experiment Try helping people with and without prayers, and compare the results?

BTW, the power of prayer has been extensively studied scientifically. So we know for a fact that prayers to any, today, known gods is a waste of time.

If everybody was healthy and had everything they needed, then they would not need your help, and you would not have to bother caring about them. The fact that most people have needs, gives us the opportunity to care - or not.

I feel that faith in God helps me to care in profound ways. I believe I was unfairly sacked from my job that I had been doing for ten years. I never had a day of sick, I did a lot of the jobs other people seemed afraid to do, caring for people with challenging behaviour.

Silly me. Rapists aren't bad people. They're just giving other people opportunities to show that they care for the rape victim. Who knew that rape was morally good? The more you know.

That was about six years ago, but I have now done about fifteen hundred hours of voluntary work for the people who sacked me. At minimum wages I have probably given them about £10,000 of my time. Every now and then, I come into contact with the people responsible for my sacking, I feel it is better to forgive and feel at peace.

?!? If you're getting paid, it isn't volonteer work. Then it's a job. I've never been paid for my volonteer work. It's actually a net loss because I've spent plenty of my own money buying things that they needed.

 

[Eric H]

I find action without prayer to be helpful too.

I am pleased that you do, I am sure you are also a kind and caring person too.

Indeed, if action is helpful, with or without prayer; and prayer without action is not helpful (as you appear to be aware), then what is the point of the prayer part of all this?

I find strange coincidences happen with action and prayer.

 

[bilby]

I am pleased that you do, I am sure you are also a kind and caring person too.

Indeed, if action is helpful, with or without prayer; and prayer without action is not helpful (as you appear to be aware), then what is the point of the prayer part of all this?

I find strange coincidences happen with action and prayer.

I find strange coincidences happen with action and no prayer.

The world population is about eight billion. One-in-a-million chances will inevitably happen to about 8,000 people. No gods are necessary to explain that.

 

[Eric H]

BTW, the power of prayer has been extensively studied scientifically. So we know for a fact that prayers to any, today, known gods is a waste of time.

I couldn't do the voluntary work of being a Street Pastor without prayer, last Friday we tried bringing calm to a large crowd of drunks who were fighting at 3 am. There were no police, and we spent about half an hour with a volatile crowd.

?!? If you're getting paid, it isn't volonteer work. Then it's a job. I've never been paid for my volonteer work. It's actually a net loss because I've spent plenty of my own money buying things that they needed.

Maybe you misread my post, but when I was sacked they stopped paying me any money, and as I said, I have done around fifteen hundred voluntary hours after I was sacked and for the people who gave me the sack. I am still doing the same kind of work for them as I was doing before. So IF they were still paying me, I would have earned at least £10,000. And like many voluntary jobs, they cost me money as well as time.

I suffered from a lot of discrimination at work because of my faith, there were a dozen other employees with no faith, and I certainly did not try to convert any of them.