Then let me spell it out in simple words that even you might understand.
I'd much rather you simply start making coherent arguments, rather than making incoherent arguments repeatedly and at length.
If wearing X is not in any way characteristic to a particular religion (and by statistical correlation one's ethnic background), and you and I might as well wear X as, say, a muslim, then banning X would not disproportionately affect muslims or any other religious or ethnic group. Therefore, it can't be argue to be motivated by racism or bigotry. You could of course still argue that it doesn't make sense in a general sense, or that it is arbitrary, but that was not the point of my reply to DrZoidberg.
I wasn't responding to your claims about whether the burqa is connected to religion or not. I was responding to your false dichotomy in which people either choose to wear it as a personal choice, or do so because it's mandated; it's entirely possible that both reasons factor into why some Muslim women wear it, and others don't.
If it is unconstitional in Germany, then that's up to German legislators and/or judiciary to decide, and you can hardly argue that it is anti-democratic when Merkel brings it up as a campaign talking point for upcoming elections.
It remains to be seen how far the idea will go, but regardless of whether or not it succeeds within the German political process, it's entirely inconsistent with the values of a free society.
All countries have laws that limit individual freedoms in minor ways for greater good; the ban on nazi symbols for example. I imagine that not many people would want to march in Nazi uniforms in Germany (the number of those people could be in the same ballpark as people who want to wear a burqa or a niqab), but I don't think it is a grievous injustice to deprive them of that right considering that almost all such people are representatives of a horrible, bigoted ideology.
I know you don't. You've made it repeatedly clear, on multiple occasions, that you don't give a shit about Muslims' civil liberties. To quote you:
"fuck islam. I couldn't care less about the feelings of backwards muslim congregations." -- Jayjay
Some of us, on the other hand, recognize that freedom of speech, including freedom of religion, are a core, nonnegotiable tenet of how a free society functions, and that doesn't change just because xenophobes on the internet think it ought to.
In other words, it means fuck all.
There are about 4 million muslims in Germany, so if one out of 10,000 muslim women wear a burqa (or a hijab more likely) that would mean there are thousands. I don't pretend to know the actual numbers, it could be just hundreds. But obviously there are some, and if there wasn't then the ban would be irrelevant anyway.
You said "thousands," not some, who are being
forced to wear the veil, and that this was a fact. If you don't pretend to know the numbers, then don't pull numbers out of your ass. It damages your credibility, and makes it hard for anyone to take you seriously.
There may well be some women who are coerced into wearing the veil. But you don't get to make factual claims about how many there are unless you have sources to back them up, and their mere existence doesn't justify banning the veil outright.
A) Ad hominem. And also false.
B) I care about the rights of the weakest people, those who are forced to wear the burqa/niqab, and are not in a position to fight back unless laws are enacted to help them out.
Banning the veil won't help anyone, except for authoritarian Islamophobes who get off on the idea of pissing off Muslims.
The few provocateurs who choose to wear the garb voluntarily are clearly strong and independent enough that they can survive the minor indignity of having to show their face every now and then.
They shouldn't have to, because they're within their rights to dress how they want. If you don't like it, too fucking bad.
You can survive the minor indignity of having to see them once in a while.
How the fuck is it projection? You're the one who wants to ban an article of clothing, because you assign to it a meaning that it doesn't necessarily have to anyone else, and think that your understand of it alone justifies depriving everyone else of the right to wear it.
Nonsense. Most muslims are regular people, who don't force their wifes or daughters to wear the niqab. But generally it is a much more paternalistic and authoritarian religion than the flavors of Christianity you find in the west, not to even speak of the typical non-religious person. There are a lot of children of muslims who are feeling oppressed by their families treating them like whores if they don't wear the veil, for example... the veil is a tool of oppression. These are hard problems to tackle but talking about them publicly helps, regardless of whether any muslim garb is actually banned or not.
And so now you respond to my accusation that you have a fucked up, ignorant view of Islam and Muslims, by spouting off a bunch of predictably fucked up and ignorant stereotypes of Muslims. Bravo.
Every time these discussions come up, I voice my suspicion that you - probably the loudest voice on the forum for stripping Muslims of their civil liberties because
you think it serves the greater good - have probably never had any meaningful, direct interaction with any Muslims in your personal life. And you refuse to answer every time. Wonder why?
Regardless, putting aside the fact that you know fuck all about the people you're so keen to pass judgment on, the fact is that neither you nor anyone else gets to decide which expressions of religious freedom symbolize this or that, or whether or not they ought to be allowed in public. Plenty of people view the concept of religion in general, and in particular the manner in which it is forced on children at a young age when they are still forming their view of their world, as a form of oppression; if we follow your fucked up reasoning to its conclusion, then there's nothing stopping us from simply banning religion outright. Something tells me you probably wouldn't object, at least not if it was the religion of those "backwards congregations."
But unfortunately for you, Jayjay, free societies don't function like this. If that's too much for you to handle, maybe you ought to look elsewhere, like one of those third world authoritarian shitholes you like to talk about so much. Your worldview actually has a lot more in common with theirs than it does with progressive, forward-thinking people.
