Also, it would seem that one of the easiest ways to find out about women getting abused in the industry is through the customers who interact with them because pimps can keep them isolated from society, but they have to meet the johns. If reporting signs of abuse potentially opens them up to criminal charges themselves, that's just one more hurdle placed in the way of identifying the victimization and getting them the help they need.
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DERAIL - Swedish Prostitution
- Thread starter Malintent
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DrZoidberg
Contributor
This only started in the 70'ies. I'm pretty sure Swedes beat their kids as much as everybody else up to this
Are you the guy whose friend got raped by the other friend a few years ago?
DrZoidberg
Contributor
Yup. That one ended with me losing both of them as friends. So complete bullshit all around and a senseless tragedy. Also, completely unrelated to this.
Well it reminded me what you are.
I think it's likely they were unwilling. Not certain.
My understanding is that drivers are the norm in the industry, voluntary or not.
Interesting though and I think you're right.
It occurs to me that this could go a long ways towards combating the dark side. Legalize prostitution but make johns mandated reporters.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
Ehe... what? So what am I. Not following you here
Ya, it's like when the cops find some teenager walking down the street carrying a tv. It's not certain that he stole the tv, since sometimes people just randomly hand out tvs to passing strangers, so it's only likely that it's stolen.
Toni
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I confess I never quite get when you are being sarcastic or ironical --or playing it straight. So forgive me if I'm missing your point, as so often I do but:
Do you really think that johns have any vested interest in reporting an abused prostitute? Or that johns aren't abusing prostitutes? And ffs, if prostitutes are so free under decriminalization, why aren't they reporting the abuse themselves? Doesn't decriminalization give prostitutes agency? Your post seems to indicate that you don't actually believe that it does: women (and I am sure you are only talking about actual adult women here) still need rescuing from bad, abusive men by men who fall in love with them, however unworthy and soiled and downtrodden a woman is. I think you wasted too much of your youth watching Pretty Woman. And how does any of this help with the problem of law enforcement not caring or believing prostitutes who are abused?
Wouldn't the easiest way to find out about women getting abused in the industry is for women to actually have agency to report abuse, or simply to avoid abuse? What about all of the underaged prostitutes--and there are many? What about all of the male prostitutes--and there are many?
You all still have some mighty romantic ideas of what a prostitute's life is like.
I don't know who'd posts you're reading or why you're quoting mine when you're responding to them, but your answers seem utterly divorced from anything I'm saying.
Of course having an agency to report to and avoiding abuse in the first place are the easiest way to find these out. That's kind of 98% of what I'm getting at. That sort of thing is far more an aspect of a legal and regulated industry as opposed to how they're aspects of an illegal and underground industry. Given that you agree that prostitution is not going away, how do you feel that this abuse will be better handled inside of an illegal system?
DrZoidberg
Contributor
People in general tend to be quite protective of women. I doubt Johns are any different.
I doubt any of the Johns think they're abusing anyone.
Come on. How about not insulting prostitutes this way? Who's side are you on here?
You've just revealed yourself as a person who thinks being a slut is shameful and that prostitutes should feel ashamed of their job. Grow the fuck up.
People are different. A lot of women aren't too hung up about sexual matters. There's a big polyamory trend among the young right now. This movement is full of women who, without pay, sleep around like crazy. And they claim it's empowering. I doubt they feel "soiled". So please, quit this moralistic attitude. It doesn't become an enlightened member of the human community.
As long as it's illegal (true regardless of it's the john or prostitute who is committing the crime) they have an incentive to keep quiet about abuse.
How do you know? Whenever the police find one it's headline news. That's not indicative of it being common. If it was it wouldn't be news.
In the gay world prostitution is completely normalised. Loads of young men fuck older men for money and there's no shame about it. They can be completely open about it. I think all gay men I know have stories from their youth about having a sugar daddy (a john) at some point. It's a non issue in that community. Which makes it all the more bizarre that it's still illegal.
I think you have taken the worst case scenarios and assumed they're the norm.
You are a person that was happy with not reporting a violent rapist to the police, leaving him free to rape again. Let´s say that I´m not to concerned with your opinion when it comes to violence against women.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
I wasn't happy at all. But it was very important to her that I didn't. She even made me promise not to. I won't go into the convoluted reasons she gave. It didn't make much sense at the time. But she was badly traumatised. Too mentally weak be pressured into anything. At the time reporting it would have sucked her into a criminal case that she would have felt would have been another rape or a continuation of the rape. The rape she was a victim of was quite brutal and violent. She just wanted to get away from him.
And most importantly it wasn't my call. It was her call. And I respected it.
Yes, a shame. But there you have it. I had to make a choice and I chose to stand by her side, the victims side. Which is what any good friend would do.
You've made it clear that you would have acted differently. We'll see if you do if it happens. It's always easy to have the moral high ground when you'll never have to deal with the consequences of your actions. If you'd gone against her wishes and reported it she'd just seen you as another rapist. Nice that you can chose to ignore that. But I can't.
edit: I resent the tone or implication of your post. You make it sound like what happened happened because I wanted it to. Obviously I would have wanted to report the guy and put him in jail. Who wouldn't want that? I'd already got a written confession from him. He wouldn't have made much of a fuss. If reported I'm pretty sure he'd been honest with the police and taken his punishment. But sometimes we're in a position where we're not the ones making the decisions. We may not like the decisions that are taken. But if it's not our call, it's not our call. And I strongly feel that it was the victims call all along. She was so mentally broken and fragile that caring for her mental well-being stood above all other concerns.
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Derec
Contributor
Aren't we human beings too? Do we not have a conscience? If you prick us, do we not bleed?
Some surely are. But you have not adequately explained why criminalizing consenting adults will help in any way with the small minority who are abusers.
And I think you have wasted too much time reading feminist propaganda.
That is a separate problem. But I do not see how it is helped by criminalizing sex work in general. If anything, it helps abusers by lumping them in with a much bigger pool of people who have sex with prostitutes but are not abusers.
And how is that helped by criminalizing their non-abusive customers.
Do you think they are also automatically victims whose customers must be locked up no matter what?
And you have some mighty dystopian ideas about sex work.
ronburgundy
Contributor
Yeah, Toni's question reveal a cartoonish notion of John's as abnormal immoral monsters. Most are just average males who want to have sex. In fact, the moment prostitution was fully legalized, John's would become an even more representative sample of the male population, and just as likely to report a sex-slave as they would to report a woman being physically abused, raped, and imprisoned at a neighbors house.
I suspect many women fail to grasp the fact that it's a small % of males getting the majority of sexual partners, with many if not most males going long periods without sex, despite a strong ever-present desire for it. Plus, there are many John's who are "normal" married men that turn to prostitutes when they cheat. While being unfaithful eliminates them from sainthood, it doesn't make them callous immoral scum.
Putting their subjective delusions aside, clearly some John's do abuse the prostitutes, but it is a small minority. Also, it is the secrecy of its illegality that make such John's willing to engage in such abuse, because they know that law enforcement won't be getting involved. Every illegal market for anything, from water to pets to toys, has increased violence between all parties involved due to the illegality itself, because each party knows that the other will not go to the cops.
And, like every other negative aspect surround prostitution, under-age one are made many times more likely by making prostitution illegal. Most Johns and virtually all "over-age" prostitutes would report potential under-age ones, if they could do so without themselves being criminalized and shamed for it. Legalization would mean licensing involving age verification, allowing Johns to avoid engaging in criminal child rape. It would create a much clearer demarcation between prostitution with consenting adults versus with minor and other non-consenters. Normal market forces would then greatly undermine the profitability of pimps using minors. It would still happen, because their are pervs who only want minors, but it would greatly shrink the market to just them and make it far harder for them to hide in the currently massive shadow cast by criminalizing all sex for money.
And, those worse case scenarios are made worse and far more common than they need to be by Toni's attitudes and politics, which are a major cause increasing all the forms of violence and non-consensual sex that is tied to prostitution, mostly because of the illegality and slut shaming that she is promoting.
Derec
Contributor
DrZoidberg
Contributor
I know couples who has small children where at least one parent is always with the child. This makes sex difficult. They've solved this by having an open relationship. Well, getting casual sex is easy for a woman. Less so for a man. And if you're already exhausted from work and parenting, finding that extra energy to court a woman is just not there. Prostitutes is a handy option.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
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