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DERAIL - Swedish Prostitution

The problem with trafficking is that trafficking and non-trafficking prostitution will superficially look the same. It is completely dependent on what the prostitutes say to the police. But after they've been raided and the brothel shut down the prostitutes have zero incentive to say they were willing prostitutes. If they do they are criminals and risk jail time, and/or fines. If they on the other hand say they were forced into it they will be treated as victims and might even get to benefit from damages.

That article gave the reader no information which allowed me to understand if this really is trafficking or not. Also, it's the question of newsworthiness. A woman travelling to a country to work a season as a prostitute and has the bad luck of working when it's raided is not news.

Because, as somehow I keep needing to say, human trafficking is a problem here in my city we have police training and procedures here that grant immunity to trafficked individuals. Yes they can say they were trafficked, but how do these women know to say that? They are in a strange land, don't speak the language, and saying they are trafficked will place their traffickers in risk of major jail time. So it makes no sense for the pimps to have them tell the police they have been trafficked because the pimps will face about 10 years in jail...

The lesson learned from Rose Alliance (the Swedish prostitutes union) is that prostitutes have excellent networks where they exchange information. They are exceedingly well informed. These networks are international. They've got conferences and everything. Getting aid and help is super easy no matter where you are on the planet. Yes, the networks are informal. But they are effective.

You're making the common mistake of assuming that prostitutes are helpless victims or weak somehow. Weak women get eaten up in no time. They would never last in that profession. You got to have street smarts and be hard as nails. Being a prostitute is not an easy job. So I'd turn the question around. Why wouldn't they know what to say? Before going they'd of course interviewed a woman who had been before. She'd make sure she knew her rights and legal situation for any eventuality. Wouldn't you?

Also, the pimp/prostitute relationship doesn't have to be exploitative. Among the members of Rose Alliance having a separate bank as well as bodyguard is a safety thing. There's of course many categories. But a brothel for instance the prostitutes can pool resources and just have one pimp for all of them = more money for the prostitutes. These arrangements can be mutually beneficial.

Anyhoo... all of this I've learned from talking to Pye Jakobsson, who is the leader of Rose Alliance who I have had the great privilege of meeting. She's an awesome woman. Very intelligent and knows exactly what she wants from life. A no bullshit kind of lady. Also a prostitute. Just kick-ass in every way.
 
Because, as somehow I keep needing to say, human trafficking is a problem here in my city we have police training and procedures here that grant immunity to trafficked individuals. Yes they can say they were trafficked, but how do these women know to say that? They are in a strange land, don't speak the language, and saying they are trafficked will place their traffickers in risk of major jail time. So it makes no sense for the pimps to have them tell the police they have been trafficked because the pimps will face about 10 years in jail...

The lesson learned from Rose Alliance (the Swedish prostitutes union) is that prostitutes have excellent networks where they exchange information. They are exceedingly well informed. These networks are international. They've got conferences and everything. Getting aid and help is super easy no matter where you are on the planet. Yes, the networks are informal. But they are effective.
My city is not in Sweden. Getting aid and help is not easy if you do not know where or how to get aid and help. It isn't like the traffickers are giving these women this information.

You're making the common mistake of assuming that prostitutes are helpless victims or weak somehow.
I have made no such assumption, because you asked I supplied the information on human sex trafficking in my city. This does not cover all prostitution that take place here, nor was it ever meant to. Fact is women are imprisoned here against their will. This does not change the fact that most prostitution here is not in trafficked humans, but it happens in my city. How many slaves are too many for my community to be concerned with?

Also, the pimp/prostitute relationship doesn't have to be exploitative.
This is not what I am discussing. I am discussing real human trafficking, with real people who have been forced into slavery. It is a real problem here.

Also a prostitute. Just kick-ass in every way.
Good for her, she has a choice.
 
I think we agree what the problems are. I just think we disagree about the solutions.

I think we disagree about both, actually.
And that's where I have a problem with your solution. While reducing the demand is a nice theoretical solution, it's not a practical one. This means that a solution needs to take into account that this won't really happen. It's like having safe injection sites and needle exchanges for drug users. It would be better to just have people not use drugs in the first place, but since they're going to be doing so, the question is what can be done to make it as safe and secure as possible.

It's a good comparison except that most drug users use by choice, even if you or I might think that their choice is driven by some dysfunction(s), often coupled with biology. And we have treatment programs, even medical insurance (sometimes) and multiple social support systems in place to help people kick their addictions.

On the other hand, prostitutes are often coerced, literally, which is relatively rare among drug users. And we do not have well recognized, socially acceptable, funded programs to help prostitutes leave that life, with some small scale programs being the exceptions.

There is some stigma to being a clean drug addict, but almost none to being a recovered alcoholic. Prostitutes, if their history is known, always face the perception that they still prostitute themselves and if they aren't willing, are at higher risk of coercion. Not to mention a much greater burden of social stigma.

Well, I think that any solution which includes the phrase "they don't get beaten up or raped or murdered as often" is a majorly positive solution. I'm not aware of any solution that keeps prostitution criminalized which includes that phrase, therefore decriminalization is the solution I favour.

LEGAL prostitutes are not as subject to violence, but the illegal sex workers still are. From what I've read, there are no places with legal prostitution that do not have right along side it illegal sex trade going on. Those workers are still unprotected. I would wager that they are subject to even greater risk because those who specifically get off on hurting other people would go there where they can do what they want with relative impunity.

No matter how legal we make sex work, there will still be limits on age of sex worker, level of violence acceptable, use of condoms, testing (which protects the clients only, not the sex worker), etc. Those who willingly participate in sex work are not able to keep up with demand in areas where sex work is legal. I don't see this as changing, meaning there will always be a market for those who are too young, who are not willing, who have no choice but to accept whatever the client and pimp dish out. I cannot see a way around this and I would really, truly like to.

I'm having a hard time coming up with any 'acceptable' level of violence directed at sex workers, or how we would decide what was an 'acceptable' risk.

You're correct that prostitutes have a higher risk of STDs et al than workers in other industries have. Similarly, boxers and football players have a higher risk of concussions and other physical injuries. If banning boxing and football isn't a viable solution, the next best thing is to have organizations and structures in place to educate the workers about these risks and have procedures in place to minimize them and proper medical services to deal with them when they happen. It's the same with prostitutes and STDs. A legal and regulated industry can have these organizations and procedures in effect to a much better extent than an underground one run by criminals can. It's the second best solution, but since the best solution of getting rid of prostitution entirely isn't viable, it's the optimal choice.

Are you sure you want to use pro football (American) and boxing as examples of protection of those who work in the industry? Because they aren't well protected and there is a LOT of money being thrown at keeping the problems of TBIs out of sight/out of mind (forgive the pun), not to mention the potential for other life threatening and life limiting injuries. IMO, there is not enough financial compensation that mitigates the damage of a TBI for the player and for their loved ones. Keep in mind that my mother had a TBI (obviously not sports related) so I am somewhat familiar with what that entails.

It will probably not surprise you that I am not a fan of (American) football or boxing for precisely the risk of TBIs and other injuries to players. I also am in favor of getting the world out of the coal mining (and other mining) industries as much for the damage done to those who do the work as for the environmental damage done.

And yes, I'm a pacifist (if an extremely imperfect one) so I'm not much in favor of what we expect out of our armed forces.

In my work, I am daily exposed to hazardous materials, and even infectious materials. There are many extremely non-sexy precautions taken and engineered in place to prevent actual exposure that could lead to harm or disease. It's all very well regulated and procedures well established for how to handle an event that would cause me to say, have a stick with an infected sharp, or a splash to the eyes, etc, as well as prophylactic medications plans in place in the event that those precautions fail. In the years that I've done this work, exactly one co-worker in my work unit had an actual potential exposure and the plan put into place until it could be determined that the risk of infection was actually nil was....not at all sexy and involved some pretty expensive and nasty meds, as well as intrusion into the personal life of my co-worker. Trust me when I say that these are not likely to be implemented in sex work --and would not be acceptable to clients! and the exposures I risk are far less risky than the exposure that a sex worker would risk, even with condoms, etc. We're far more covered up than any sex worker,for one thing. And anyone who even attempted to hit one of us or even swore badly at one of us would be fired and if physical assault occurred, arrested and prosecuted, with full support of the institution.


Regardless of why they're doing it, the fact is that they are doing it. Since you agree that they're not going to just stop and nobody will be prostitutes anymore, the issue to deal with is how to make their job as safe and secure as possible. I do not see what you put in place to help ensure that in a better way than a legalized and regulated framework would.

Ah, I want to heal the world, actually.

One real issue I have with legalization and regulation is that so far, everything that I have read indicates that right along side the legal, regulated trade is a burgeoning illegal trade that involves trafficking. Legalization/regulation does not stop that and some think it even contributes to the growth of illegal trade.

I think that a huge part of the puzzle is that as societies, we believe that it is OK to use some people: women, children, gay people, heck: LGBTQ people, black/brown/yellow people, people with funny accents or religions or no religion however it suits our purpose, regardless of the harm or potential for harm to the person providing the service, or the labor.

We need to change that thinking.
 
So, to sum up, you're basically saying that we need a strategy similar to the "Just say no" plan to deal with drug abuse? That's what I'm hearing from you.

We both agree that something needs to be done to protect sex workers and that the industry isn't going to go away. Since you disagree with legalization to help mitigate the problems, what is your solution? I'm not seeing an alternative offered from you other than "something needs to change". Am I missing a part of your argument and, if so, could you sum that up?
 
So, to sum up, you're basically saying that we need a strategy similar to the "Just say no" plan to deal with drug abuse? That's what I'm hearing from you.

We both agree that something needs to be done to protect sex workers and that the industry isn't going to go away. Since you disagree with legalization to help mitigate the problems, what is your solution? I'm not seeing an alternative offered from you other than "something needs to change". Am I missing a part of your argument and, if so, could you sum that up?

I don't think legalization gets at the heart of the problem: some vulnerable people are coerced, either by other people with more power or by circumstances into allowing strangers to do whatever they want to them, for some money, putting everybody at risk for all kinds of harm. And along the way, increases the instances of non-legalized, non-regulated sex work where people are even more likely to be coerced, with fewer protections.

What I think the only solution would be is frankly improving educational opportunities for everyone. Give everyone more opportunity to engage in work that does not do physical and emotional harm to them or others (or the environment since I feel similarly about miners) and allows them to earn a sufficient wage to provide for their needs and wants, physical, social, emotional, etc.

If legalization did not increase non-legal sex work, I'd be much more inclined to use it as a stop-gap measure while we work on eliminating the need for sex workers to engage in the trade and for customers to seek out the trade. I can see legitimate reasons that some aspects of some version of sex work would likely remain and be beneficial but it would bear no resemblance to the current models which are rife with abuse that legalization does not seem to have curtailed and may exacerbate.

Frankly, I don't care what consenting adults do to/for/with each other but consent is the real issue here. And so is adult.
 
The lesson learned from Rose Alliance (the Swedish prostitutes union) is that prostitutes have excellent networks where they exchange information. They are exceedingly well informed. These networks are international. They've got conferences and everything. Getting aid and help is super easy no matter where you are on the planet. Yes, the networks are informal. But they are effective.
My city is not in Sweden. Getting aid and help is not easy if you do not know where or how to get aid and help. It isn't like the traffickers are giving these women this information.

That wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about prostitutes who learn in advance what to say if they get caught in a raid. They don't need to be in cahoots with the "traffickers". They just need to have talked to other girls who know. They just need to have planned for it. Which I'm sure anybody who travels to another country does.

It also strikes me as unlikely that these women haven't heard stories of people being forced into sex slavery. If I were in their shoes I'd do my best to minimise that chance. Take precautions. That still doesn't make it impossible. But I find it hard to think that many girls wonder straight into this naive and stupid.

You're making the common mistake of assuming that prostitutes are helpless victims or weak somehow.
I have made no such assumption, because you asked I supplied the information on human sex trafficking in my city. This does not cover all prostitution that take place here, nor was it ever meant to. Fact is women are imprisoned here against their will. This does not change the fact that most prostitution here is not in trafficked humans, but it happens in my city. How many slaves are too many for my community to be concerned with?

Also, the pimp/prostitute relationship doesn't have to be exploitative.
This is not what I am discussing. I am discussing real human trafficking, with real people who have been forced into slavery. It is a real problem here.

My whole point is that you have no way of knowing whether they're really trafficked or not. How could you possibly know that? You're just assuming they're bonafide trafficking victims. Nobody knows this. I don't. and you don't.
 
I don't think legalization gets at the heart of the problem: some vulnerable people are coerced, either by other people with more power or by circumstances into allowing strangers to do whatever they want to them, for some money, putting everybody at risk for all kinds of harm. And along the way, increases the instances of non-legalized, non-regulated sex work where people are even more likely to be coerced, with fewer protections.

I think you have it completely backward. If you legalise it all the incentives are for the legal prostitutes to try to get the illegal ones off the street. Most of the market will suddenly not need to be clandestine. They can all cooperate with the police. It'll be a hell of a lot easier to get at trafficking in a market where prostitution is legal. Stopping trafficking is both Amnesty's and Rose Alliance's main arguments for legalising prostitution.

What I think the only solution would be is frankly improving educational opportunities for everyone. Give everyone more opportunity to engage in work that does not do physical and emotional harm to them or others (or the environment since I feel similarly about miners) and allows them to earn a sufficient wage to provide for their needs and wants, physical, social, emotional, etc.

You touched on an excellent point. Lots of people have shitty dead-end jobs. Prostitutes aren't especially victimised in this society. At least they're paid well. There's loads of people who get their self esteem ground to a pulp each day and make shitty wages. Salesmen at wearhouse stores!

If legalization did not increase non-legal sex work, I'd be much more inclined to use it as a stop-gap measure while we work on eliminating the need for sex workers to engage in the trade and for customers to seek out the trade. I can see legitimate reasons that some aspects of some version of sex work would likely remain and be beneficial but it would bear no resemblance to the current models which are rife with abuse that legalization does not seem to have curtailed and may exacerbate.

Frankly, I don't care what consenting adults do to/for/with each other but consent is the real issue here. And so is adult.

But you don't seem to think that prostitutes can consent? You're just assuming that sex workers are only sex workers because they are forced to it somehow.

In Sweden we have excellent welfare. Education is free. We even pay students a salary, just to study. Nobody needs to be a prostitute here. We still have prostitution. I'm not saying so therefore the same applies elsewhere. I'm just saying that Sweden proves that removing all the stuff that forces people to do sex work still doesn't eliminate it. There's stuff missing from your explanatory model.
 
My whole point is that you have no way of knowing whether they're really trafficked or not. How could you possibly know that? You're just assuming they're bonafide trafficking victims. Nobody knows this. I don't. and you don't.

We have thousands of documented cases that have been thoroughly researched. If you don't want to believe what I have said that is your decision.

Here's a transcript from a documentary:
TANIA: [through interpreter] They took me to a villa. They locked me in. We worked for as long as we had clients, 24 hours a day. They didn’t see us as human beings, but just as whores, just as flesh that they could use. That’s all.

OKSANA: [through interpreter] We serviced between 8 and 15 men a day. There were 22 girls in a three-bedroom apartment, and each girl got beaten up at least once a day. Sometimes Turkish policemen used our services. One girl ran away and went to the police for help, but she was taken back to her pimp.

NARRATOR: To offer some hope, the traffickers suggest to the women that they can work their way to freedom by paying back their purchase price.

VLAD, Trafficker: [through interpreter] Debt bondage represents the money that a girl is told she has to work off. That amount is easily inflated, if the pimp wants. That way, the debt never goes away and she continues to work without ever receiving a penny.

TANIA: [through interpreter] He said, "You’ll be paid $500 a month." But the girls told me he never pays $500 a month. He always finds a reason to fine you. For example, if a client asks you to do something and you refuse, and the client complains to the pimp, he’d charge you for a month or two and you’d end up working for nothing.

NARRATOR: If a trafficked woman manages to pay off her so-called debt, her pimp can then simply sell her to someone else. This creates a cycle of debt bondage from which there is almost no escape.

VLAD: [through interpreter] One pimp sells her to another, he sells her to a third, this third one to a fourth, and so on.
 
I don't think that anyone disputes that there are many trafficking victims in the sex trade. I believe that Dr Zoidberg's point was that you have no way of knowing whether or not the particular prostitute you're hiring is one, not whether or not they exist at all.
 
We have thousands of documented cases that have been thoroughly researched. If you don't want to believe what I have said that is your decision.

Here's a transcript from a documentary:
TANIA: [through interpreter] They took me to a villa. They locked me in. We worked for as long as we had clients, 24 hours a day. They didn’t see us as human beings, but just as whores, just as flesh that they could use. That’s all.

OKSANA: [through interpreter] We serviced between 8 and 15 men a day. There were 22 girls in a three-bedroom apartment, and each girl got beaten up at least once a day. Sometimes Turkish policemen used our services. One girl ran away and went to the police for help, but she was taken back to her pimp.

NARRATOR: To offer some hope, the traffickers suggest to the women that they can work their way to freedom by paying back their purchase price.

VLAD, Trafficker: [through interpreter] Debt bondage represents the money that a girl is told she has to work off. That amount is easily inflated, if the pimp wants. That way, the debt never goes away and she continues to work without ever receiving a penny.

TANIA: [through interpreter] He said, "You’ll be paid $500 a month." But the girls told me he never pays $500 a month. He always finds a reason to fine you. For example, if a client asks you to do something and you refuse, and the client complains to the pimp, he’d charge you for a month or two and you’d end up working for nothing.

NARRATOR: If a trafficked woman manages to pay off her so-called debt, her pimp can then simply sell her to someone else. This creates a cycle of debt bondage from which there is almost no escape.

VLAD: [through interpreter] One pimp sells her to another, he sells her to a third, this third one to a fourth, and so on.

I am very skeptical that this represents a significant proportion of sex work in the US generally. In any event, the existence of slavery does not justify the prohibition of consensual sex work.
 
I don't think that anyone disputes that there are many trafficking victims in the sex trade. I believe that Dr Zoidberg's point was that you have no way of knowing whether or not the particular prostitute you're hiring is one, not whether or not they exist at all.
I would expect that there are certain venues were you can be pretty much sure a particular prostitute is not a trafficking victim. In the same was as if you go to a Best Buy to purchase a TV, you are pretty much sure it isn't stolen property. If you go to the guy in the alley, you are pretty sure that it is. If you go to the seedy brothel from Taken run by Eastern Europeans you should knoe your are using the services of a prostitute who is likely a slave.
 
We have thousands of documented cases that have been thoroughly researched. If you don't want to believe what I have said that is your decision.

Here's a transcript from a documentary:

I am very skeptical that this represents a significant proportion of sex work in the US generally. In any event, the existence of slavery does not justify the prohibition of consensual sex work.

Yeah, I'm not sure why it's so hard to imagine making sex trafficking illegal while also not criminalizing voluntary acts among consenting adults.

We don't make banks illegal because some people rob them. We make bank robbery illegal.
 
I don't think that anyone disputes that there are many trafficking victims in the sex trade. I believe that Dr Zoidberg's point was that you have no way of knowing whether or not the particular prostitute you're hiring is one, not whether or not they exist at all.
I would expect that there are certain venues were you can be pretty much sure a particular prostitute is not a trafficking victim. In the same was as if you go to a Best Buy to purchase a TV, you are pretty much sure it isn't stolen property. If you go to the guy in the alley, you are pretty sure that it is. If you go to the seedy brothel from Taken run by Eastern Europeans you should knoe your are using the services of a prostitute who is likely a slave.

Right. With the trade being illegal and unregulated, however, you don't have the same ability to be sure of this. The average guy googling an escort service doesn't have the tools to distinguish a legitimate agency which recruits willing women and an illegitimate one which traffics in sex slaves. He can try to be more sure by sticking to higher end agencies, checking out escort review boards, etc, but there is a chance of his being wrong. Having legal and licensed agencies to choose from significantly lessens this chance.

If that option is available and someone chooses not to take it and go for a cheaper, unlicensed provider, then the authorities are probably doing a service by arresting that guy.
 
Except...that it doesn't work that way. I mean, logically, you would think that it would: legalization would make it easier/safer for the sex workers--who no one but me seems willing to acknowledge are not necessarily female. Or adult. Much less willing.

We understand all of these things. We are only calling for legalization of consensual, adult sex work. Free up the effort that is currently going after them to go after the non-consensual or non-adult stuff.

As it stands now how would you know if a prostitute was underage or not? Some people simply look young, you can't go on looks.

With a legal/licensed system it's easy enough to check they have a license--now you also have a basis for showing the john should have suspected that the prostitute was underage.

As for whether they are male or female, so what? I don't see that that enters into it.

I'd like to believe that, but the reality is that wherever sex work is legal, there is right along beside it plenty of illegal human trafficking. Supply will not meet demand. Partly because there will always be some demand for what is too violent, too young, just plain too forced.

Whether the consensual, adult aspect of the business is legal or not has no bearing on the clearly illegal aspects of it. Legalizing/licensing the non-evil side of it makes it a lot easier to go after the stuff you're talking about, though.
 
Prostitution, even where it is legal, carries a lot more cons than most work. Even where legal, prostitutes face a great deal of exploitation, not to mention robbery and the the threat of physical violence and are at high risk for sexually transmitted infections. Even with condoms, which have a failure rate > 0, which is especially important given the number of different sex partners a sex worker will have. Of course, there is always the economic pressure of knowing you can earn more by being willing to forgo the condom....

I think the 'only needs to be a bit less annoying than their second best option to make money' is quite an underestimate of the forces that drive and keep sex workers in the trade.

Most sex workers begin before they are of legal age and before they have other legal means to support themselves. Many have been sexually and otherwise abused.

Robbery is mostly a threat of the illegal side of it.

STDs--the STD rates in the legal brothels here are about zero. It appears that the infected client rate is zero. Regular testing is mandated, dick checks are mandated, condoms are mandated (and checked--they sometimes send people in to try to negotiate sex without a condom. She agrees and she's busted.)
 
I disagree that it reduces the severity of the problems as a whole. I also think we disagree as to what the actual problems are.

I don't actually think there is a way to make sex work safer except to reduce demand. I wish that I did but reducing demand for paid sex is at least as hard as reducing demand for drugs and excess alcohol: probably never going to happen.

Prohibition didn't work. We learned our lesson with alcohol. We then repeated the mistake with drugs and most still haven't learned the lesson. We have repeated it with prostitution, most still haven't learned the lesson.

Statistics do not back up your claim that legalizing it makes the industry safer. Sure, some sex workers might be (marginally) safer--maybe they don't get beaten up or raped or murdered as often but they are still as exposed to sexually transmitted infections (testing only protects clients since no one is suggesting that clients have to be tested on the spot to demonstrate a clean bill of health, even if tests existed to catch new, acute infections (I have some expertise in this area so I can say with assurance: such tests do not exist--earliest possible date to catch an HIV infection is 10 days post infection during which 10 days the patient is highly infectious--and 10 days is the very, very earliest that SOME infections are caught) but that seems to be more than offset by an increased demand for illegal sex trade, including trafficked victims. So far, no one seems to have actually reduced overall harm to sex workers as a group.

The HIV infection rate with a condom and without the recipient having any other STDs is extremely low. Since the state began testing for HIV here they have yet to find a case other than in pre-employment testing.

My 2 bit guess is that it is because we are willing to accept that a certain segment of society is somehow entitled to get their jollies from hurting other people as long as they pay them...something and as long as we can pretend that the sex workers are doing it as a rational choice and not because they have no other job skills, often because they are too young to have any legit job skills at all or because they are too damaged and traumatized by their youth spent as sex workers to have any realistic ambition to do much else.

IMO, your view is a romanticized vision of choices sex workers have never had in their lives and that sex work will never afford them.

Except reality doesn't work that way. When you have someone with no good choices you don't improve their lot by removing the least bad choice.
 
Latest news on trafficking in my city:
http://www.kare11.com/news/crime/se...ghlights-important-hotel-initiative/413490185

A criminal complaint says the investigation that led to the charges began February 15, when a member of the Human Trafficking Unit became aware of a large-scale prostitution operation operating out of an apartment in St. Louis Park. Officers executing a search warrant found two females inside the apartment who did not speak English. The apartment had two bedrooms which contained only a bed and a nightstand stocked with condoms and sexual aids. There were used condoms discovered in garbage cans.

And what in that says that they were unwilling?

It is common for prostitutes to have drivers for security reasons and I can easily see them not wanting to carry a bunch of cash to meetings with other clients. What counts is where the money goes in the end.

Now, the situation you describe very well might have been women forced into it but the article certainly doesn't show it.
 

And what in that says that they were unwilling?

It is common for prostitutes to have drivers for security reasons and I can easily see them not wanting to carry a bunch of cash to meetings with other clients. What counts is where the money goes in the end.

Now, the situation you describe very well might have been women forced into it but the article certainly doesn't show it.

But it's pretty safe to say they were unwilling. Given that it's a fact that there are sex slaves in the prostitution industry, gigantic red flags like that are the sorts of things one needs to be looking for when trying to find those forced into it.
 
Just in case no one has asked, how great is parenting in Sweden? Have they eliminated all child sexual and other physical abuse? Given the trend of data being revealed here I'm thinking nope.

How would you even measure such a thing? But I think Sweden is suffering from the same problem as the rest of the west. Helicopter parenting protecting their children from everything, including allowing them to grow the fuck up.

But physical abuse of children is super super super taboo. Way more than in let's say, England. If anybody saw a parent spank their child they'd call the police at once. But of course it happens. And sexual abuse of children seems to be pretty universal for our species. Not that everybody does it. But it is taboo everywhere. But still happens in every country. I doubt anybody has reliable numbers on prevalence.

Preceding taboo with two supers won't cut it. I'm the grandson of immigrants Swedish and Danish who came to 'merica. They both knew a lot about roughing up the kids. Then there's "Virgin Spring" by Bergman and those recent "let's go crazy shootings" upon which for me to reflect further on Swedish culture. Nope two super's won't shade things at all. As for "way more: that's not at issue is it since I'm not a British american and I don't think people like bilby, the nearest Elingish ancestor-ed with who we both commuincate would appreciate such denigration even in defense of Swedish ethics.

Nuff of that. At issue is the penhcant of most christian based western cultures to promote 'spare the rod spoil the child' upbringing methods. Helicopter parenting is an upper middle class phenomenon, hardly that of the hoi poloi. NASCAR parents even in decline are much more likely than Soccer mom parents. So if one were to look at child porn rates my guess is that would be found on par with other porn which is quite high in Sweden. Sweden sexual behavior dejour http://www.rfsu.se/en/Engelska/About-rfsu/Resources/Statistics--Facts--Sweden-/
 
Sarcasm?

The war on drugs in Sweden is about as effective in Sweden as elsewhere and brings with it this kind of crime
False. Sweden is doing it right. When they have a social issue, they go after those causing harm, and treat those affected as the victims.

Heroin - It is illegal, but while the drug dealers are arrested for dealing illegal drugs, the users are treated as victims... they receive counseling, housing, medical assistance, and job placement.

Nope. It's the complete opposite. Swedish drug enforcement is a complete disaster. We have among the highest mortality rates in Europe for our addicts. We do not treat addicts as sick people. We treat them as criminals who just need to be punished really harshly until they stop. Getting into rehab is absurdly hard. Preventative care to help people before they develop serious addictions is non-existent. I can go on for days about this. It's a total joke. Every other country in Europe is better. Romanian drug prevention is doing a better job.

Sweden is good for many things. This is something we should feel shame about. We're doing it all wrong and the statistics show it. It is slowly slowly getting better. At least we're now allowing addicts to get hold of clean needles. A bit late though, since they now all have AIDS and Hepatitus C. Well done Sweden. Better late than never though.

Prostitution - it is illegal, but the prostitutes are not arrested, they get free counseling and work placement. The 'Johns' are arrested.

Also false. Immediately after prostitution became legalised (it's legal to sell, not buy) prostitutes formed a union. It turns out that prostitutes rarely are victims are verbal and have no problems arguing their case. Making the johns only illegal makes the life of prostitutes incredibly dangerous. Before they could get all the details from the john. Today johns won't meet them unless they can stay anonymous. Before they could share information about bad johns between them. Now they can't as effectively.

Also turns out that most prostitutes prefer whoring than other jobs so aren't interested in counseling and work placement. Sweden has a well developed social welfare system. Nobody needs to be a prostitute here. That's been the case since the 1940's. We still have prostitutes.

Whether or not trafficking happens is hotly debated. Chances are that all trafficking numbers are bullshit. A major reason to suspect that is that most prostitutes are happy about being prostitutes. And now when they're legal they're not hiding anymore. It makes no sense why a John would pay to fuck an enslaved prostitute and not a voluntary prostitute. We can ask them. But this turned out to be extremely embarrassing for the feminists who pushed this through, since the prostutitues aren't playing the victim role the feminists have given them. Awkward. So they've been completely silenced in the press. Nobody interviews them.

If you don't believe me, here's the link to the Swedish prostitutes union. They're primarily fighting for getting prostitution completely legalised and treated as any other job.

http://www.rosealliance.se/sv/om-oss/

So the "Swedish model" has been an absolute disaster and it's bizarre how the Swedish feminists keep trying to push it. It's just morally wrong and wicked. When it comes to this they really disgust me. They clearly have no care in the world for these women they're trying to "protect". They're not. All they've done is make the lives of prostitutes needlessly more dangerous.

So you really picked the two Swedish legal models that have turned out to be a disaster in every way.

Good informative post. In particular, the part I bolded is something I hadn't considered. Basically, the cannot protect themselves by being informed. It relates to and makes even worse a likely effect of criminalizing johns that had occurred to me. That effect is to make Johns more dangerous by turning them into criminals. Plenty of behavioral research shows that once a person violates one rule, they are more likely to violate others. IOW, making a person a criminal for doing something that isn't actually immoral, will make them more likely to commit crimes that are actually immoral. Also, it means that a higher % of john's will be less moral and more criminal in general. Only people willing to break the law for sex (which includes people who already break other laws) will be willing to be johns. Thus, prostitutes ware more likely to encounter "bad" johns, and won't have enough law abiding citizens to chose from and be forced to lower their standards to get enough business. Combined with your point about the lesser info prostitutes will have about their johns and the more secret and secluded settings the transactions must occur in, makes it far more dangerous for prostitutes to be dealing with john made into criminals by the criminalization of johns.
 
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