Hate begets Hate: "Scholar" says Palestinian civilians are legimate targets because they voted in Hamas

[untermensche]

If all one reads is American or Israeli coverage they will definitely not know what is going on.

You mean if one doesn't read Palestinian propaganda one doesn't fall for it.


Yet more evidence of Hamas & human shields:

http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/08/04/captured-hamas-combat-manual-explains-benefits-human-shields/

I don't know about that pamphlet on the Israeli Defense website. I suppose something like that is beyond Israel's ability to forge.

Why can't Israel take video of the use of these human shields?

 

[Sabine Grant]

Not only is that a terrible distortion of reality, it is a tacit admission that the IDF is complicit in the killing of civilians.

It is undisputable that the IDF knows that its attacks result in the deaths of civilians. Derec even posted a video made by the IDF about how precise their methods are that uses the word "unavoidable" in that context. Everyone knows that wars result in deaths of civilians, especially waging war in a dense urban environment. What some people are taking issue with is the extent to which efforts are really being made to minimize civilian casualties and if there are any other methods that they could have used to accomplish their tactical and strategic goals without as much civilians being killed. There's a lot of "what else could they do?" language thrown around without much demonstration that any thought was actually put into what else they could do. If sources from within Gaza are to believed (and I'm sure there are some here who will not believe them) then there are targets being destroyed that are not of any military value.

The extent of the damage and casualties/wounded, from the President of the Red Cross, while in the Gaza today and reporting from the Gaza :

http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/category/latest-episode/

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Not only is that a terrible distortion of reality, it is a tacit admission that the IDF is complicit in the killing of civilians.

It is undisputable that the IDF knows that its attacks result in the deaths of civilians. Derec even posted a video made by the IDF about how precise their methods are that uses the word "unavoidable" in that context. Everyone knows that wars result in deaths of civilians, especially waging war in a dense urban environment. What some people are taking issue with is the extent to which efforts are really being made to minimize civilian casualties and if there are any other methods that they could have used to accomplish their tactical and strategic goals without as much civilians being killed. There's a lot of "what else could they do?" language thrown around without much demonstration that any thought was actually put into what else they could do. If sources from within Gaza are to believed (and I'm sure there are some here who will not believe them) then there are targets being destroyed that are not of any military value.

Almost all sources in Gaza are reporting what Hamas wants them to report. Very few reporters actually tell the truth. Here's one that did:

http://www.israellycool.com/2014/08...films-hamas-firing-rocket-from-next-to-hotel/

Hamas launching from right next to a hotel with foreign reporters.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You mean if one doesn't read Palestinian propaganda one doesn't fall for it.


Yet more evidence of Hamas & human shields:

http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/08/04/captured-hamas-combat-manual-explains-benefits-human-shields/

I don't know about that pamphlet on the Israeli Defense website. I suppose something like that is beyond Israel's ability to forge.

Why can't Israel take video of the use of these human shields?

How about a still shot?

 

[Shadowy Man]

Almost all sources in Gaza are reporting what Hamas wants them to report. Very few reporters actually tell the truth.

Sorry, but I'm unwilling to simply take your word for it. Unless you can back this up from unbiased sources (and the IDF doesn't count), I won't find this to be a satisfactory response to my comments.

Here's one that did:

http://www.israellycool.com/2014/08...films-hamas-firing-rocket-from-next-to-hotel/

Hamas launching from right next to a hotel with foreign reporters.

It's clear from the very first sentence of that link that it is not an unbiased source, so you'll have to do better.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It is undisputable that the IDF knows that its attacks result in the deaths of civilians. Derec even posted a video made by the IDF about how precise their methods are that uses the word "unavoidable" in that context. Everyone knows that wars result in deaths of civilians, especially waging war in a dense urban environment. What some people are taking issue with is the extent to which efforts are really being made to minimize civilian casualties and if there are any other methods that they could have used to accomplish their tactical and strategic goals without as much civilians being killed. There's a lot of "what else could they do?" language thrown around without much demonstration that any thought was actually put into what else they could do. If sources from within Gaza are to believed (and I'm sure there are some here who will not believe them) then there are targets being destroyed that are not of any military value.

Almost all sources in Gaza are reporting what Hamas wants them to report. Very few reporters actually tell the truth. Here's one that did:

http://www.israellycool.com/2014/08...films-hamas-firing-rocket-from-next-to-hotel/

Hamas launching from right next to a hotel with foreign reporters.

Israellycool.com.

Seems legit.

I don't know about that pamphlet on the Israeli Defense website. I suppose something like that is beyond Israel's ability to forge.

Why can't Israel take video of the use of these human shields?

How about a still shot?

Clarify for me: are you circling the Hamas members hiding behind the civilians or the civilians being used as shields behind Hamas members?

I ask because I'm not seeing anyone in this picture who could be identified on sight as a militant. It rather appears to be a bunch of people standing on the roof of their home.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Clarify for me: are you circling the Hamas members hiding behind the civilians or the civilians being used as shields behind Hamas members?

I ask because I'm not seeing anyone in this picture who could be identified on sight as a militant. It rather appears to be a bunch of people standing on the roof of their home.

I assume that the circles are to show that children are also used. And I assume that it is not their home, but the Hamas strategic headquarters. But, because the IDF has no issue with shooting through them to get to Hamas, it's not really a "shield".

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Clarify for me: are you circling the Hamas members hiding behind the civilians or the civilians being used as shields behind Hamas members?

I ask because I'm not seeing anyone in this picture who could be identified on sight as a militant. It rather appears to be a bunch of people standing on the roof of their home.

I assume that the circles are to show that children are also used. And I assume that it is not their home, but the Hamas strategic headquarters. But, because the IDF has no issue with shooting through them to get to Hamas, it's not really a "shield".

All fair assumptions, considering everything else... though I'm curious how it is that Hamas' above-ground strategic headquarters could even exist without having been utterly reduced to rubble.

 

[steve_bnk]

They expected coexistence. The Arabs chose the path of war instead.

No they didn't. They were blind religious idiots who thought some god would take of them and protect them from the consequences of their abuses.

They abused tens of thousands based on some primitive book of fairy tales.

Israel was founded by secularists. There was debate by theists who wanted a theocracy much as some Christians wanted in the founding of the USA.

 

[Shadowy Man]

I assume that the circles are to show that children are also used. And I assume that it is not their home, but the Hamas strategic headquarters. But, because the IDF has no issue with shooting through them to get to Hamas, it's not really a "shield".

All fair assumptions, considering everything else... though I'm curious how it is that Hamas' above-ground strategic headquarters could even exist without having been utterly reduced to rubble.

Another assumption would be that this is the "before" photo.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Sorry, but I'm unwilling to simply take your word for it. Unless you can back this up from unbiased sources (and the IDF doesn't count), I won't find this to be a satisfactory response to my comments.

Here's one that did:

http://www.israellycool.com/2014/08...films-hamas-firing-rocket-from-next-to-hotel/

Hamas launching from right next to a hotel with foreign reporters.

It's clear from the very first sentence of that link that it is not an unbiased source, so you'll have to do better.

That's an Indian TV station reporter, not an Israeli reporter. It's just an Israeli site that picked up the video and posted it.

 

[Arctish]

No they didn't. They were blind religious idiots who thought some god would take of them and protect them from the consequences of their abuses.

They abused tens of thousands based on some primitive book of fairy tales.

Israel was founded by secularists. There was debate by theists who wanted a theocracy much as some Christians wanted in the founding of the USA.

There was so much debate and so little agreement that Israel still lacks a Constitution. Their Declaration of Establishment and the Basic Laws provide a framework, but despite decades of work the Israelis still can't craft a Constitution that satisfies the different factions. Meanwhile, the extreme Orthodox have the political power to demand a religious state and sink any attempt to secularize their government or society.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Almost all sources in Gaza are reporting what Hamas wants them to report. Very few reporters actually tell the truth. Here's one that did:

http://www.israellycool.com/2014/08...films-hamas-firing-rocket-from-next-to-hotel/

Hamas launching from right next to a hotel with foreign reporters.

Israellycool.com.

Seems legit.

I don't know about that pamphlet on the Israeli Defense website. I suppose something like that is beyond Israel's ability to forge.

Why can't Israel take video of the use of these human shields?

How about a still shot?

Clarify for me: are you circling the Hamas members hiding behind the civilians or the civilians being used as shields behind Hamas members?

I ask because I'm not seeing anyone in this picture who could be identified on sight as a militant. It rather appears to be a bunch of people standing on the roof of their home.

I didn't circle anything. The IDF circled the kids in the shot. Those are all "civilians", packed on the roof to keep Israel from bombing the building.

- - - Updated - - -

Clarify for me: are you circling the Hamas members hiding behind the civilians or the civilians being used as shields behind Hamas members?

I ask because I'm not seeing anyone in this picture who could be identified on sight as a militant. It rather appears to be a bunch of people standing on the roof of their home.

I assume that the circles are to show that children are also used. And I assume that it is not their home, but the Hamas strategic headquarters. But, because the IDF has no issue with shooting through them to get to Hamas, it's not really a "shield".

The IDF doesn't bomb through them.

- - - Updated - - -

I assume that the circles are to show that children are also used. And I assume that it is not their home, but the Hamas strategic headquarters. But, because the IDF has no issue with shooting through them to get to Hamas, it's not really a "shield".

All fair assumptions, considering everything else... though I'm curious how it is that Hamas' above-ground strategic headquarters could even exist without having been utterly reduced to rubble.

Because of the very thing you see--when the IDF sends warning to get out they pack the roof with civilians instead. And this isn't a major HQ--those are in hospitals.

 

[Arctish]

I don't know about that pamphlet on the Israeli Defense website. I suppose something like that is beyond Israel's ability to forge.

Why can't Israel take video of the use of these human shields?

How about a still shot?

Clarify for me: are you circling the Hamas members hiding behind the civilians or the civilians being used as shields behind Hamas members?

I ask because I'm not seeing anyone in this picture who could be identified on sight as a militant. It rather appears to be a bunch of people standing on the roof of their home.

I didn't circle anything. The IDF circled the kids in the shot. Those are all "civilians", packed on the roof to keep Israel from bombing the building.

- - - Updated - - -

Clarify for me: are you circling the Hamas members hiding behind the civilians or the civilians being used as shields behind Hamas members?

I ask because I'm not seeing anyone in this picture who could be identified on sight as a militant. It rather appears to be a bunch of people standing on the roof of their home.

I assume that the circles are to show that children are also used. And I assume that it is not their home, but the Hamas strategic headquarters. But, because the IDF has no issue with shooting through them to get to Hamas, it's not really a "shield".

The IDF doesn't bomb through them.

"Neighbors gathered on the roof of a family’s home in Gaza, hoping Israeli pilots would refrain from bombing the house once they saw the number of people on the roof. Israeli pilots bombed the house just now, committing a massacre. In Gaza solidarity means offering your own body to protect your neighbor’s house because your body is your last and your only line of defense. These are the people of Palestine." - Mahmoud Mroueh

I assume that the circles are to show that children are also used. And I assume that it is not their home, but the Hamas strategic headquarters. But, because the IDF has no issue with shooting through them to get to Hamas, it's not really a "shield".

All fair assumptions, considering everything else... though I'm curious how it is that Hamas' above-ground strategic headquarters could even exist without having been utterly reduced to rubble.

Because of the very thing you see--when the IDF sends warning to get out they pack the roof with civilians instead. And this isn't a major HQ--those are in hospitals.

So you're saying Israel fired through the human shields, killing 8 of them, on something that wasn't all that important?

The Wall Street Journal carried a report on the attack that's pretty balanced. There was a senior member of Hamas living there but he was just one of 35 residents. He was unharmed (the part of the house he was in was undamaged) but other residents and neighbors were killed or maimed in the strike despite the fact they were in plain view, unarmed, and not posing a threat to anyone.

 

[Shadowy Man]

It's clear from the very first sentence of that link that it is not an unbiased source, so you'll have to do better.

That's an Indian TV station reporter, not an Israeli reporter. It's just an Israeli site that picked up the video and posted it.

Just because it's Indian doesn't mean it's not unbaised. In the very first sentence the word "Hamasholes" is used. That negated any potential consideration for unbiased in my view. Show me something that is at least attempting to have some kind of journalistic integrity and I might consider it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

"Neighbors gathered on the roof of a family’s home in Gaza, hoping Israeli pilots would refrain from bombing the house once they saw the number of people on the roof. Israeli pilots bombed the house just now, committing a massacre. In Gaza solidarity means offering your own body to protect your neighbor’s house because your body is your last and your only line of defense. These are the people of Palestine." - Mahmoud Mroueh

If it didn't work they wouldn't do it.

What does happen is that sometimes they don't get to the roof in time and the pilot doesn't realize there are people in the building.

Remember, 99% of reporting out of Gaza is basically straight from Hamas.

So you're saying Israel fired through the human shields, killing 8 of them, on something that wasn't all that important?

The Wall Street Journal carried a report on the attack that's pretty balanced. There was a senior member of Hamas living there but he was just one of 35 residents. He was unharmed (the part of the house he was in was undamaged) but other residents and neighbors were killed or maimed in the strike despite the fact they were in plain view, unarmed, and not posing a threat to anyone.

Paywalled.

Note what I said above, though--almost all the reporting is straight from Hamas. It's not safe to report something Hamas doesn't want said. Take all reports from Gaza with considerable doubt unless they make Hamas look bad. (For example, that Indian reporter I linked this morning.)

- - - Updated - - -

That's an Indian TV station reporter, not an Israeli reporter. It's just an Israeli site that picked up the video and posted it.

Just because it's Indian doesn't mean it's not unbaised. In the very first sentence the word "Hamasholes" is used. That negated any potential consideration for unbiased in my view. Show me something that is at least attempting to have some kind of journalistic integrity and I might consider it.

Try again, you're not reading it right.

You're mixing up what the Israeli site added (including that "Hamasholes") with what the Indian report said.

 

[untermensche]

I don't know about that pamphlet on the Israeli Defense website. I suppose something like that is beyond Israel's ability to forge.

Why can't Israel take video of the use of these human shields?

How about a still shot?

A picture of some people calmly standing around?

If this is supposed to be evidence of something one needs a vivid imagination to see it.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Try again, you're not reading it right.

You're mixing up what the Israeli site added (including that "Hamasholes") with what the Indian report said.

Sorry. I went to your link, read the first sentence and disregarded the entire article as unreliable. So, you're saying it's only Israeli information that is unreliable?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Try again, you're not reading it right.

You're mixing up what the Israeli site added (including that "Hamasholes") with what the Indian report said.

Sorry. I went to your link, read the first sentence and disregarded the entire article as unreliable. So, you're saying it's only Israeli information that is unreliable?

I wouldn't say it's unreliable, just very biased--I linked it for the embedded video. The important part is what the Indian reporter is saying.

There's also a followup that's on their own website:

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/t...rubs-the-backstory-of-our-hamas-report-572088

 

[Shadowy Man]

Sorry. I went to your link, read the first sentence and disregarded the entire article as unreliable. So, you're saying it's only Israeli information that is unreliable?

I wouldn't say it's unreliable, just very biased...

I tend to not believe that heavily biased news sources are reliable. It is inevitable that the bias affects the choice in what information is given and what interpretation can be made from the information, making the message unreliable.