The Shooting of Daniel Shaver

[laughing dog]

all of the rational people that are in a position to evaluate sand affect change to such procedures.

Any rational person would know that is irrelevant to the issue as to whether it was murder or not.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The point is the cops had no way of knowing it wasn't real.

well, sure they did. all they had to do was assess the situation carefully and with proper procedures in order to determine there was no gun, just a "gun." this usually involves telling someone to place their hands above their heads or fingers locked on their heads.

And where do the police have a time stop device?

 

[laughing dog]

The point is the cops had no way of knowing it wasn't real.

well, sure they did. all they had to do was assess the situation carefully and with proper procedures in order to determine there was no gun, just a "gun." this usually involves telling someone to place their hands above their heads or fingers locked on their heads.

And where do the police have a time stop device?

Babble is not an argument, it is simply babble.

 

[Arctish]

The point is the cops had no way of knowing it wasn't real.

well, sure they did. all they had to do was assess the situation carefully and with proper procedures in order to determine there was no gun, just a "gun." this usually involves telling someone to place their hands above their heads or fingers locked on their heads.

And where do the police have a time stop device?

They weren't storming the beach at Normandy. They had time to assess the situation. The guy was cooperative and had no visible weapons. That the encounter ended with a fatal shooting is entirely the responsibility of the cops. They failed to properly manage the situation.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The point is the cops had no way of knowing it wasn't real.

well, sure they did. all they had to do was assess the situation carefully and with proper procedures in order to determine there was no gun, just a "gun." this usually involves telling someone to place their hands above their heads or fingers locked on their heads.

And where do the police have a time stop device?

They took more time with all these commands and having him crawl etc etc than it would have taken to go up to him and handcuff him.

 

[RavenSky]

The point is the cops had no way of knowing it wasn't real.

well, sure they did. all they had to do was assess the situation carefully and with proper procedures in order to determine there was no gun, just a "gun." this usually involves telling someone to place their hands above their heads or fingers locked on their heads.

And where do the police have a time stop device?

In this particular case, they already had the man face down on the floor. He was obeying their conflicting orders to the best of his understanding. They had all the time in the world to properly assess the situation.

ANY cop that lost control of the situation as we all saw it on the video should never ever be a cop.

And keep in mind Mr. Authoritarian... this police department agrees because they did fire his trigger-happy ass.

 

[ruby sparks]

.... it is ridiculous that this disgrace to the police profession was not found guilty.

Hole in one.

 

[Malintent]

all of the rational people that are in a position to evaluate sand affect change to such procedures.

Any rational person would know that is irrelevant to the issue as to whether it was murder or not.

If a surgeon makes a mistake that cases their patient to loose their life on the operating table, is that murder?
What if they made no procedural mistakes and it was just that 1 in a million thing?
What if they made every mistake possible and directly caused their death?
Is either situation "murder"?

The cop should never work in law enforcement again.. and probably has some serious mental disorders as well. However, that is a far cry from "guilty of murder"... unless he wasn't on a call and instead was hunting that person down on a personal mission.

That a jury found insufficient departure from department policy / procedure to find the cop guilty of murder is unsurprising.

That there are people on this board with such piss-poor arguments that they need to create strawmen of the "bootlicker" hyperbole is equally unsurprising.

 

[laughing dog]

all of the rational people that are in a position to evaluate sand affect change to such procedures.

Any rational person would know that is irrelevant to the issue as to whether it was murder or not.

If a surgeon makes a mistake that cases their patient to loose their life on the operating table, is that murder?
What if they made no procedural mistakes and it was just that 1 in a million thing?
What if they made every mistake possible and directly caused their death?
Is either situation "murder"?

Your analogy fails because a surgeon who loses a patient during an operation is not taking direct action to kill the patient. This police officer did.

The cop should never work in law enforcement again.. and probably has some serious mental disorders as well. However, that is a far cry from "guilty of murder"... unless he wasn't on a call and instead was hunting that person down on a personal mission.

That a jury found insufficient departure from department policy / procedure to find the cop guilty of murder is unsurprising.

That fact that is unsurprising is depressing but not relevant as to whether decent and rational human being find this murder.

That there are people on this board with such piss-poor arguments that they need to create strawmen of the "bootlicker" hyperbole is equally unsurprising.

Given the number of knee-jerk defenders of killers like this who present pathetic and/or idiotic rationalizations of these killing, I agree that it is unsurprising.

 

[ruby sparks]

I read that the cop's gun had 'you're fucked' inscribed somewhere on it. Is that the case?

 

[ruby sparks]

Also, I read that the victim is survived by his wife and kids. Hard to imagine what they're going through.

 

[coloradoatheist]

all of the rational people that are in a position to evaluate sand affect change to such procedures.

Any rational person would know that is irrelevant to the issue as to whether it was murder or not.

If a surgeon makes a mistake that cases their patient to loose their life on the operating table, is that murder?
What if they made no procedural mistakes and it was just that 1 in a million thing?
What if they made every mistake possible and directly caused their death?
Is either situation "murder"?

The cop should never work in law enforcement again.. and probably has some serious mental disorders as well. However, that is a far cry from "guilty of murder"... unless he wasn't on a call and instead was hunting that person down on a personal mission.

That a jury found insufficient departure from department policy / procedure to find the cop guilty of murder is unsurprising.

That there are people on this board with such piss-poor arguments that they need to create strawmen of the "bootlicker" hyperbole is equally unsurprising.

I was on the other side, and someone explained it and I can see why the jury said no to murder.

 

[Mumbles]

I read that the cop's gun had 'you're fucked' inscribed somewhere on it. Is that the case?

This was widely reported, so apparently yes.

Also, I read that the victim is survived by his wife and kids. Hard to imagine what they're going through.

This is a definite yes.

 

[Ford]

Also, I read that the victim is survived by his wife and kids. Hard to imagine what they're going through.

And his wife and kids can go online and watch their husband/father on his knees, begging for his life before being gunned down.

Anyone else here watch the video? He's trying so desperately to surrender to the cop. So obviously terrified. Alternately kneeling, lying prone, or with his hands up in the air pleading to not get shot.

Now imagine that's your husband. Or your dad. And to watch that and know that his killer will walk because cops get the benefit of the doubt no matter what.

 

[ruby sparks]

Also, I read that the victim is survived by his wife and kids. Hard to imagine what they're going through.

And his wife and kids can go online and watch their husband/father on his knees, begging for his life before being gunned down.

Anyone else here watch the video? He's trying so desperately to surrender to the cop. So obviously terrified. Alternately kneeling, lying prone, or with his hands up in the air pleading to not get shot.

Now imagine that's your husband. Or your dad. And to watch that and know that his killer will walk because cops get the benefit of the doubt no matter what.

I would hope that the kids at least have not been allowed to see it yet. But no doubt that can't last.

- - - Updated - - -

I read that the cop's gun had 'you're fucked' inscribed somewhere on it. Is that the case?

This was widely reported, so apparently yes.

I also read that he was previously cited for making an unnecessarily violent arrest. Also that he is a failed actor.

 

[ruby sparks]

If a surgeon makes a mistake that cases their patient to loose their life on the operating table, is that murder?
What if they made no procedural mistakes and it was just that 1 in a million thing?
What if they made every mistake possible and directly caused their death?
Is either situation "murder"?

The cop should never work in law enforcement again.. and probably has some serious mental disorders as well. However, that is a far cry from "guilty of murder"... unless he wasn't on a call and instead was hunting that person down on a personal mission.

That a jury found insufficient departure from department policy / procedure to find the cop guilty of murder is unsurprising.

That there are people on this board with such piss-poor arguments that they need to create strawmen of the "bootlicker" hyperbole is equally unsurprising.

I was on the other side, and someone explained it and I can see why the jury said no to murder.

Yes, murder is a high bar. As far as I can see, for it to be justifiable homicide, the officer only has to cite reasonable fear that the victim was a lethal threat, in this case considered to have had a gun or did anything that could have been construed as reaching for one. Pointing any sort of gun (in this case a rifle I believe) out a hotel window was, unfortunately, pretty dumb, in light of recent events elsewhere.

I would have hoped that the officer could have been convicted on a lesser charge though. I think professional, trained police officers who carry arms should arguably be held to a fairly high standard, otherwise why not just have untrained vigilantes enforcing law.

Perhaps the family will win some sort of civil case. It does seem to have been an unnecessary killing, all things considered.

 

[coloradoatheist]

If a surgeon makes a mistake that cases their patient to loose their life on the operating table, is that murder?
What if they made no procedural mistakes and it was just that 1 in a million thing?
What if they made every mistake possible and directly caused their death?
Is either situation "murder"?

The cop should never work in law enforcement again.. and probably has some serious mental disorders as well. However, that is a far cry from "guilty of murder"... unless he wasn't on a call and instead was hunting that person down on a personal mission.

That a jury found insufficient departure from department policy / procedure to find the cop guilty of murder is unsurprising.

That there are people on this board with such piss-poor arguments that they need to create strawmen of the "bootlicker" hyperbole is equally unsurprising.

I was on the other side, and someone explained it and I can see why the jury said no to murder.

Yes, murder is a high bar. As far as I can see, for it to be justifiable homicide, the officer only has to cite reasonable fear that the victim was a lethal threat, in this case considered to have had a gun or did anything that could have been construed as reaching for one. Pointing any sort of gun (in this case a rifle I believe) out a hotel window was, unfortunately, pretty dumb, in light of recent events elsewhere.

I would have hoped that the officer could have been convicted on a lesser charge though. I think professional, trained police officers who carry arms should arguably be held to a fairly high standard, otherwise why not just have untrained vigilantes enforcing law.

Perhaps the family will win some sort of civil case. It does seem to have been an unnecessary killing, all things considered.

As we see it's a high bar. They did try manslaughter I think in this case too. I would go with just reckless abandonment in this case in hope. But this is also we we have two court systems because sometimes the penalty is more in line with doing your job but just doing it it wrongly which doesn't raise to the criminal nature.

 

[TSwizzle]

Anyone else here watch the video? He's trying so desperately to surrender to the cop. So obviously terrified. Alternately kneeling, lying prone, or with his hands up in the air pleading to not get shot.

Yes, it was sickening.

If this situation happened exactly as it did that time, I would have done the same thing," Brailsford said testifying in his Maricopa County Superior Court trial.

Thankfully this shit for brains is no longer on the force. The Mesa PD will pay a heavy price for this, rightfully so.

 

[RavenSky]

Yes, murder is a high bar. As far as I can see, for it to be justifiable homicide, the officer only has to cite reasonable fear that the victim was a lethal threat, in this case considered to have had a gun or did anything that could have been construed as reaching for one. Pointing any sort of gun (in this case a rifle I believe) out a hotel window was, unfortunately, pretty dumb, in light of recent events elsewhere.

I would have hoped that the officer could have been convicted on a lesser charge though. I think professional, trained police officers who carry arms should arguably be held to a fairly high standard, otherwise why not just have untrained vigilantes enforcing law.

Perhaps the family will win some sort of civil case. It does seem to have been an unnecessary killing, all things considered.

As we see it's a high bar. They did try manslaughter I think in this case too. I would go with just reckless abandonment in this case in hope. But this is also we we have two court systems because sometimes the penalty is more in line with doing your job but just doing it it wrongly which doesn't raise to the criminal nature.

Doing one's job so wrongly that it results in the death of others does raise it to a criminal act in more situations than not.

A cop should not get preferential treatment on this point.

Especially a cop that even his own department believed was so wrong they fired him.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Yes, murder is a high bar. As far as I can see, for it to be justifiable homicide, the officer only has to cite reasonable fear that the victim was a lethal threat, in this case considered to have had a gun or did anything that could have been construed as reaching for one. Pointing any sort of gun (in this case a rifle I believe) out a hotel window was, unfortunately, pretty dumb, in light of recent events elsewhere.

I would have hoped that the officer could have been convicted on a lesser charge though. I think professional, trained police officers who carry arms should arguably be held to a fairly high standard, otherwise why not just have untrained vigilantes enforcing law.

Perhaps the family will win some sort of civil case. It does seem to have been an unnecessary killing, all things considered.

As we see it's a high bar. They did try manslaughter I think in this case too. I would go with just reckless abandonment in this case in hope. But this is also we we have two court systems because sometimes the penalty is more in line with doing your job but just doing it it wrongly which doesn't raise to the criminal nature.

Doing one's job so wrongly that it results in the death of others does raise it to a criminal act in more situations than not.

A cop should not get preferential treatment on this point.

Especially a cop that even his own department believed was so wrong they fired him.

I disagree on the cop getting a preferntial treatment, because it is their job to go into difficult situations and handle it. You and I aren't asked to go find that guy who is holding a gun out of the window to try and stop them from shooting people. The cops job is to protect others and themselves in situation we don't. We could easily end shooting deaths from cops, just have no police.