What are your criteria for "fascist state"?

[Angry Floof]

How far does a right wing authoritarian administration have to go, in your view, before you would agree that a state has become fascist or is on the threshold?

Fascism
"a radical authoritarian nationalism,[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and control of industry and commerce"

What are the indicators?

Hyper-nationalism. The right wing has met this criteria for some time now, and Trump has ramped it up exponentially, now demonizing Canada and Mexico. Right off the bat, Trump called for a Muslim ban. And if you haven't heard, he finally won that today.

Militarism. Trump has been relentlessly vocal about using our military to bully and punish.

Glorification of violence and readiness/encouragement to use it. From early in his campaign, Trump has encouraged violence on the press, people of opposing views, and immigrants.

"Strongman" leadership. Trump's always threatening a fight with someone he has already demonized and promised his base he would deal with in some way. He's constantly using rhetoric of "not putting up with X anymore" and the like. His fear-filled base responds as programmed. Republicans define themselves as the line of defense against this evil.

Disdain for human rights. Trump has used anti-human rights rhetoric for some time, but this week's call for undermining the constitution and doing away with due process for undocumented immigrants should be alarming to anyone paying attention. But if the last few months of "zero tolerance" policy using the traumatizing of migrant children as tool of punishment, and not as something that may sometimes be necessary in criminal matters but to be avoided whenever possible, don't faze you, I would not expect due process for foreigners would matter much to you anyway.

Attack on the press. Trump openly demonizes the press, and a state propaganda machine was already waiting for him in the form of Fox Newstainment. Far right raving wackos have moved much closer to mainstream, and Sinclair broadcasting has stepped up to offer their outlets as Trump state media.

Identification of enemies. The administration has been gathering a list of influencers in media, and Trump has been identifying "enemies" since day one, which is a list of anyone who opposes his views, and includes everyone except our actual enemies such as Russia and North Korea.

"Golden age" syndrome. Trump preys on the right's irrational sentiments about how great things were in a past time but went to shit because of all the out-groups they've been indoctrinated to hate and fear.

Theatrics. Trump's middle name. 'Nuff said.

Sexism. Also 'nuff said. He practically won the election on bragging about sexual assault.

This is not a comprehensive list. Don't forget:

• Religion intertwined with political party
• Corporate power strengthened and labor power weakened
• Contempt for intellectualism and the arts
• Crime/punishment mentality
• Corruption and ethics violations
• Fraudulent elections
• Contempt for liberal democracy

(I took this list from a variety of sources. Google "steps to fascism" or similar and you'll find a plethora of sources.)


So where do you think we are on the road to fascism, and how much farther should we go before you move from hand waving to opposition?

Will you yourself or someone you care about have to be arrested unjustly before you realize that "both sides are the same" actually serves the encroaching fascism in the US?

 

[Elixir]

So where do you think we are on the road to fascism,

I think we are still in the nascent stages. But history tells us that it's not just a slippery slope, it's a steep downhill run, so ...

and how much farther should we go before you move from hand waving to opposition?

The time - and likely last chance - is NOW. If Dems fuck this up in November and the Cheato Junta retains both houses of congress, it's time to get the hell outa dodge. I don't really like Canadian weather, but I like their people and civilization... I am already regretting having so many things rooting me to the US.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Your list is good and pretty accurate but I'd like to add a few things to it.

Glorification of violence. Like hitting someone with a bike lock for example.

Attack on the press. What is the difference between "fake news" and "faux news"?

Identification of enemies. Deplorables.

"Golden age" syndrome. Obama era.

Militarism. What are you talking about here? We just went through eight fucking years of non-stop war. Obama inherited three wars and started three more.

Disdain for human rights. Anwar al-Awlaki.

Sexism. Like a whole campaign built around "vote for me or you're a sexist"?

Fraudulent elections. Talk to a Sanders supporter.

It ain't just one party people.

 

[Angry Floof]

Jason, you are yet again missing the point to nurse pet peeves. None of those things amounts to right wing authoritarianism on the left.

Every human being has the capacity for the traits of right wing authoritarian followers. All of us. But not all of us have the tendencies. No matter how much you pick up little bits of similar-sounding things, you are ignoring the giant ass right wing machine that is heading toward you.

Liberals in the US do NOT support the actions taken by every right wing authoritarian regime since WWI that have led to atrocity. We do not support targeting the powerless and vulnerable. We do not seek to strengthen corporations and the rich while taking from the poor and middle class. We don't target minorities with bigotry and scapegoating, destroy regulations that protect us, attack education in favor of indoctrination, sell out the US to foreign enemies, cut benefits to the poor, elderly, and veterans, undermine the constitution and human rights... I could go on but you are well aware of what the current administration is doing and you still choose to try to force the blame on Democrats.

You can find your little examples all you want but they don't amount to a hill of beans compared to danger of right wing authoritarianism in power.

 

[braces_for_impact]

An excellent short book on this topic is On Tyranny Twenty Lessons Fro The Twentieth Century by Timothy Snyder.

HERE is a short article based on the book.

Even as I watched Trump "win" the election I had my own doubts about what I was seeing. I wondered if I was over reacting. I don't think I am. While I don't consider us Nazis yet, I do think we've begun a slide into a corporatist police-type state that is authoritarian driven. I don't think this decline is inevitable yet; that it cannot be halted, but I do have my doubts about us pulling back from the brink. I also recognize that we could pull back for a time and then topple over the cliff at a later date. I think an awful lot depends on the next few elections, both mid-term and presidential, and new legislation being passed to safeguard our democracy. My turning point of realization was the stolen Supreme Court seat by the McConnel and the GOP, and I think history may well judge that as a real turning point in our country. I also think that if at all possible, Dems should rectify the stolen seat somehow. There are a couple different way this could be done, but that's probably more appropriate fro another thread.

I fear the country my kids would grow up in. I wish we had passports. Alas, I cannot leave the country even if I wanted to, but if things get bad enough I will work to move them to a new country.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Jason, you are yet again missing the point to nurse pet peeves. None of those things amounts to right wing authoritarianism on the left.

Nope, just fascist authoritarianism. I didn't say "right wing".

I'm saying it ain't just one party people. There's plenty of fascism to go around.

 

[Angry Floof]

Jason, you are yet again missing the point to nurse pet peeves. None of those things amounts to right wing authoritarianism on the left.

Nope, just fascist authoritarianism. I didn't say "right wing".

I'm saying it ain't just one party people. There's plenty of fascism to go around.

Both sides are not the same, not remotely, and bleating this out only serves the end times zealots in power.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Good article on some of the problems I was talking about with the Supreme Court.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Jason, you are yet again missing the point to nurse pet peeves. None of those things amounts to right wing authoritarianism on the left.

Nope, just fascist authoritarianism. I didn't say "right wing".

I'm saying it ain't just one party people. There's plenty of fascism to go around.

Both sides are not the same, not remotely, and bleating this out only serves the end times zealots in power.

The government versus the people are not remotely the same, true.

 

[Angry Floof]

Both sides are not the same, not remotely, and bleating this out only serves the end times zealots in power.

The government versus the people are not remotely the same, true.

You were talking about fascism and parties. Both parties are not the same in that respect, not by a long shot. But you knew that already.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I actually know they are far more similar than you want to admit. But you knew that already.

Any party that can nominate Hillary Clinton doesn't have clean hands on this subject.

 

[laughing dog]

I actually know they are far more similar than you want to admit. But you knew that already.

Any party that can nominate Hillary Clinton doesn't have clean hands on this subject.

There are gradations of "dirty hands". So until you can show that each party's "hands" have the same amount of dirt, your claim they are the same is unsubstantiated.

 

[Valjean]

Jason, you are yet again missing the point to nurse pet peeves. None of those things amounts to right wing authoritarianism on the left.

Nope, just fascist authoritarianism. I didn't say "right wing".

I'm saying it ain't just one party people. There's plenty of fascism to go around.

"Right Wing Authoritarianism" as defined by Altemeyer, -- who wrote the book on the subject -- is not related to political ideology. Stalin and Mao were right wing authoritarians, for example.

 

[Angry Floof]

Jason, you are yet again missing the point to nurse pet peeves. None of those things amounts to right wing authoritarianism on the left.

Nope, just fascist authoritarianism. I didn't say "right wing".

I'm saying it ain't just one party people. There's plenty of fascism to go around.

"Right Wing Authoritarianism" as defined by Altemeyer, -- who wrote the book on the subject -- is not related to political ideology. Stalin and Mao were right wing authoritarians, for example.

Thank you. And the link to that research is in my signature.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I actually know they are far more similar than you want to admit. But you knew that already.

Any party that can nominate Hillary Clinton doesn't have clean hands on this subject.

There are gradations of "dirty hands". So until you can show that each party's "hands" have the same amount of dirt, your claim they are the same is unsubstantiated.

So unless they are equally guilty, being a little bit less guilty means they are not guilty. God it. Slower fascism instead of faster fascism.

 

[laughing dog]

So unless they are equally guilty, being a little bit less guilty means they are not guilty.

No, you said they were the same. Now you are agreeing they are not the same.

God it. Slower fascism instead of faster fascism.

If by "fascism" you mean "not libertarianism according to me", then you god it right.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

So unless they are equally guilty, being a little bit less guilty means they are not guilty.

No, you said they were the same. Now you are agreeing they are not the same.

God it. Slower fascism instead of faster fascism.

If by "fascism" you mean "not libertarianism according to me", then you god it right.

Neither and none. I'm merely analyzing your standard. You say that if one is less guilty than the other, then they aren't guilty. A bankrobber and a mugger both steal, but one does so less severely so he doesn't do it at all.

 

[laughing dog]

Neither and none. I'm merely analyzing your standard.

Only if by "analyze" you mean creating idiotic straw men.

You say that if one is less guilty than the other, then they aren't guilty.

No, I didn't.

 

[Elixir]

Neither and none. I'm merely analyzing your standard.

Only if by "analyze" you mean creating idiotic straw men.

You say that if one is less guilty than the other, then they aren't guilty.

No, I didn't.

Hey, fine with me if Hason’s I’ll wish to throw away or withhold their votes. Why vote for slow fascism when you can have fast fascism?

 

[Patooka]

Any nation where its citizens are too afraid to publicly compare their leader to Hitler is a fascist state. It seems absurd at a first glace, but think about it for a bit.