What are your criteria for "fascist state"?

[bilby]

Criteria is a plural. Criterion is the singular. /GrammarNazi /GrammarRightWingAuthoritarian

 

[Angry Floof]

Any nation where its citizens are too afraid to publicly compare their leader to Hitler is a fascist state. It seems absurd at a first glace, but think about it for a bit.

Hitler was called all kinds of names and openly belittled for years.

- - - Updated - - -

Criteria is a plural. Criterion is the singular. /GrammarNazi /GrammarRightWingAuthoritarian

Thank you. Thread title fixed.

 

[bilby]

Any nation where its citizens are too afraid to publicly compare their leader to Hitler is a fascist state. It seems absurd at a first glace, but think about it for a bit.

Hitler was called all kinds of names and openly belittled for years.

Sure, but his wasn't a fascist state at that time. Once it was one, it was too late to act.

That seems to me to be the biggest problem; Nobody wants to believe it could happen to them, so they do nothing, until it is happening to them, at which point it's too late to do anything.

Trump is called all kinds of names and openly belittled right now.

The USA has slightly better checks and balances than the Weimar Republic, so the rate of descent into fascism is slower, and there is more time to do something about it. But that's not going to be much consolation if nobody does anything about it.

 

[Angry Floof]

Any nation where its citizens are too afraid to publicly compare their leader to Hitler is a fascist state. It seems absurd at a first glace, but think about it for a bit.

Hitler was called all kinds of names and openly belittled for years.

Sure, but his wasn't a fascist state at that time. Once it was one, it was too late to act.

That seems to me to be the biggest problem; Nobody wants to believe it could happen to them, so they do nothing, until it is happening to them, at which point it's too late to do anything.

Trump is called all kinds of names and openly belittled right now.

The USA has slightly better checks and balances than the Weimar Republic, so the rate of descent into fascism is slower, and there is more time to do something about it. But that's not going to be much consolation if nobody does anything about it.

Another thing we also have is history. Nazi Germany and the Holocaust have been studied and talked about non stop since then. Humanity as a whole is wiser for it. Not that this guarantees anything, but we do have this obvious precedent for not waving off what's happening now in the US.

By the way, you guys in Oz have been dealing with similar trends in right wing authoritarianism. I know your country, culture, and democratic system are different from ours, but what are your thoughts on the idea that Australia could be following in our footsteps?

 

[Patooka]

Hitler was called all kinds of names and openly belittled for years.

I thought the Sicherheitsdienst frowned upon it rather passionately.

 

[Angry Floof]

Hitler was called all kinds of names and openly belittled for years.

I thought the Sicherheitsdienst frowned upon it rather passionately.

Good point. I don't think our CIA or Secret Service could be compared to that.

 

[Underseer]

How far does a right wing authoritarian administration have to go, in your view, before you would agree that a state has become fascist or is on the threshold?

Fascism
"a radical authoritarian nationalism,[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and control of industry and commerce"

What are the indicators?

Hyper-nationalism. The right wing has met this criteria for some time now, and Trump has ramped it up exponentially, now demonizing Canada and Mexico. Right off the bat, Trump called for a Muslim ban. And if you haven't heard, he finally won that today.

Militarism. Trump has been relentlessly vocal about using our military to bully and punish.

Glorification of violence and readiness/encouragement to use it. From early in his campaign, Trump has encouraged violence on the press, people of opposing views, and immigrants.

"Strongman" leadership. Trump's always threatening a fight with someone he has already demonized and promised his base he would deal with in some way. He's constantly using rhetoric of "not putting up with X anymore" and the like. His fear-filled base responds as programmed. Republicans define themselves as the line of defense against this evil.

Disdain for human rights. Trump has used anti-human rights rhetoric for some time, but this week's call for undermining the constitution and doing away with due process for undocumented immigrants should be alarming to anyone paying attention. But if the last few months of "zero tolerance" policy using the traumatizing of migrant children as tool of punishment, and not as something that may sometimes be necessary in criminal matters but to be avoided whenever possible, don't faze you, I would not expect due process for foreigners would matter much to you anyway.

Attack on the press. Trump openly demonizes the press, and a state propaganda machine was already waiting for him in the form of Fox Newstainment. Far right raving wackos have moved much closer to mainstream, and Sinclair broadcasting has stepped up to offer their outlets as Trump state media.

Identification of enemies. The administration has been gathering a list of influencers in media, and Trump has been identifying "enemies" since day one, which is a list of anyone who opposes his views, and includes everyone except our actual enemies such as Russia and North Korea.

"Golden age" syndrome. Trump preys on the right's irrational sentiments about how great things were in a past time but went to shit because of all the out-groups they've been indoctrinated to hate and fear.

Theatrics. Trump's middle name. 'Nuff said.

Sexism. Also 'nuff said. He practically won the election on bragging about sexual assault.

This is not a comprehensive list. Don't forget:

• Religion intertwined with political party
• Corporate power strengthened and labor power weakened
• Contempt for intellectualism and the arts
• Crime/punishment mentality
• Corruption and ethics violations
• Fraudulent elections
• Contempt for liberal democracy

(I took this list from a variety of sources. Google "steps to fascism" or similar and you'll find a plethora of sources.)


So where do you think we are on the road to fascism, and how much farther should we go before you move from hand waving to opposition?

Will you yourself or someone you care about have to be arrested unjustly before you realize that "both sides are the same" actually serves the encroaching fascism in the US?

Honestly? I'm not sure how I would define it.

Conservolibertarians are clearly fascists now. They aren't even trying to hide it anymore.

But I'm not sure America is a full on fascist state yet. We're very close, but I dunno if we are there yet. I guess the next few elections will tell the tale.

Conservolibertarians are still in denial about their fascism, so we're still in danger of sliding the last few steps.

 

[Underseer]

Sure, but his wasn't a fascist state at that time. Once it was one, it was too late to act.

That seems to me to be the biggest problem; Nobody wants to believe it could happen to them, so they do nothing, until it is happening to them, at which point it's too late to do anything.

Trump is called all kinds of names and openly belittled right now.

The USA has slightly better checks and balances than the Weimar Republic, so the rate of descent into fascism is slower, and there is more time to do something about it. But that's not going to be much consolation if nobody does anything about it.

Another thing we also have is history. Nazi Germany and the Holocaust have been studied and talked about non stop since then. Humanity as a whole is wiser for it. Not that this guarantees anything, but we do have this obvious precedent for not waving off what's happening now in the US.

By the way, you guys in Oz have been dealing with similar trends in right wing authoritarianism. I know your country, culture, and democratic system are different from ours, but what are your thoughts on the idea that Australia could be following in our footsteps?

Are we any wiser for it?

Conservolibertarians have been openly calling for mass deportations for years, and we all know that the Holocaust started out as a mass deportation of Jews until someone figured out that it would be cheaper to just kill them all.

Some even openly call for concentration camps for this or that minority group.

Even as we speak, conservolibertarians are defending toddler concentration camps with logic so flimsy, it would make the Nazis who argued "Atlantis proves that white people are superior" very proud. I'm not sure we learned jack shit from the mistakes of the Nazis.

I have to agree with Billby. We're a stone's throw from full-on fascism, and by the time we're there, it will be too late to do anything about it. We're hurtling towards a fascist state because Americans are delusional and most people are more afraid of hurting the feelings of conservatives then they are of living in a fascist state.

 

[Angry Floof]

Wherever you think we're at, I would encourage all of us to protest and use social media and whatever other means we have to scream our disapproval at Republicans in government. Call your R reps and senators, call the offices of Ryan and McConnell and post messages on their gov web pages and TIE UP THEIR STAFF.

 

[Angry Floof]

Meanwhile, in Australia.

https://www.facebook.com/JulieDarvas/posts/1737080332994944

Jon Chesterton:”Australians may face up to 20 years imprisonment for peaceful protest and free speech, basic civil rights in a free democratic society, if these three Bills pass through Parliament tomorrow. And if they do it will be the strongest evidence yet that Labor are now a neoliberal party and bipartisan on yet another critical public interest matter.

Cristian Porter, Dutton and the Liberals on the other hand are predictably and offensively silencing informed debate and for no reason other than self interest and cover up, are rushing this through before the super saturday bi-elections because they don't trust democracy and think this will be their last chance to pass this draconian Orwellian legislation. Either that or simply not leaving anything to the fair wheel of democracy, if there is such a wheel left in this teutonic and shameful Australian plutocracy.

So if you thought for one moment this evil ended only with refugees, you were wrong my friend, the Liberals were only just beginning.”

How did we get to this sorry point?

Oh yeah that's right. The extreme right used refugees and their illegal War on Terror to hoodwink the fearful in our society to fear others. To the point where they have effectively taken away all of our rights to privacy and are now firmly focussed on our right to protest unlawful or unjust laws.

Obviously they have forgotten one very important thing our society is based on.
The Magna Carta.

Which makes it mandatory for all free men to fight against unlawful, unjust laws, or a dictator.

I wonder if we few are enough or that we have the intestinal fortitude to honour this in Australia now?

It's like right wing authoritarians in government are networking all over the Western world.

 

[bilby]

Sure, but his wasn't a fascist state at that time. Once it was one, it was too late to act.

That seems to me to be the biggest problem; Nobody wants to believe it could happen to them, so they do nothing, until it is happening to them, at which point it's too late to do anything.

Trump is called all kinds of names and openly belittled right now.

The USA has slightly better checks and balances than the Weimar Republic, so the rate of descent into fascism is slower, and there is more time to do something about it. But that's not going to be much consolation if nobody does anything about it.

Another thing we also have is history. Nazi Germany and the Holocaust have been studied and talked about non stop since then. Humanity as a whole is wiser for it. Not that this guarantees anything, but we do have this obvious precedent for not waving off what's happening now in the US.

By the way, you guys in Oz have been dealing with similar trends in right wing authoritarianism. I know your country, culture, and democratic system are different from ours, but what are your thoughts on the idea that Australia could be following in our footsteps?

It's a very different culture, and we don't currently have anyone in the frame as a 'strong leader' type - although that could change rapidly. Turnbull is an ass, but he isn't fascist dictator material. Abbott could perhaps have been, but is too unpopular. Dutton is a worry - if he was to take the leadership of the Liberal Party, that would be a dangerous step.

That said, Australia's history as a penal colony means that the ordinary people are quite used to living in a police state, and have an ingrained lack of respect for authority and a tendency to ignore laws that are too draconian.

I think it would be difficult for the petty fascists of the kind who support Pauline Hanson to become a really powerful force in the country in the near future. Our politics here are not (yet, quite) as polarized, nor does any one party have a stranglehold on all three branches - the judiciary is not partisan nor politicized like that of the US (Judges and electoral officials are not elected), and our elections have compulsory voting, which tends to limit the ability of extremists and enthusiasts to seize power. Moderates have to vote, no matter how apathetic they might be, and once they are in the polling booth, they tend not to vote for dangerous extremists.

 

[ZiprHead]

Criteria is a plural. Criterion is the singular. /GrammarNazi /GrammarRightWingAuthoritarian /identitarian

FTFY

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Conservolibertarians have been openly calling for mass deportations for years, and we all know that the Holocaust started out as a mass deportation of Jews until someone figured out that it would be cheaper to just kill them all.

Some even openly call for concentration camps for this or that minority group.

Even as we speak, conservolibertarians are defending toddler concentration camps with logic so flimsy, it would make the Nazis who argued "Atlantis proves that white people are superior" very proud. I'm not sure we learned jack shit from the mistakes of the Nazis.

I have to agree with Billby. We're a stone's throw from full-on fascism, and by the time we're there, it will be too late to do anything about it. We're hurtling towards a fascist state because Americans are delusional and most people are more afraid of hurting the feelings of conservatives then they are of living in a fascist state.

Which libertarians are calling for that? Give names.

Oh, you can't. You're full of bullshit as usual.

 

[ZiprHead]

Paul Ryan. You know, the guy who makes everyone in his office read Ayn Rand.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

This chart overlaps with the OP, I know. But I like the the chart. I find is concise and easily digestible.

 

[laughing dog]

Conservolibertarians have been openly calling for mass deportations for years, and we all know that the Holocaust started out as a mass deportation of Jews until someone figured out that it would be cheaper to just kill them all.

Some even openly call for concentration camps for this or that minority group.

Even as we speak, conservolibertarians are defending toddler concentration camps with logic so flimsy, it would make the Nazis who argued "Atlantis proves that white people are superior" very proud. I'm not sure we learned jack shit from the mistakes of the Nazis.

I have to agree with Billby. We're a stone's throw from full-on fascism, and by the time we're there, it will be too late to do anything about it. We're hurtling towards a fascist state because Americans are delusional and most people are more afraid of hurting the feelings of conservatives then they are of living in a fascist state.

Which libertarians are calling for that? Give names.

Underseer did not refer to libertarians.

Oh, you can't. You're full of bullshit as usual.

No need to since Underseer refered to conservolibertarians which are different than libertarians. If you want your posts to be taken seriously, bone up on reading skills. Reading is fundamental

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Paul Ryan. You know, the guy who makes everyone in his office read Ayn Rand.

Paul Ryan as a libertarian? Seriously? You do realize that Atlas Shrugged has people in it who are supposed to be the villains of the book?

He voted Yes on TARP.
He voted YES on Economic Stimulus HR 5140
He voted YES on $15billion bailout for GM and Chrysler
He voted YES on $192billion additional anti-recession stimulus spending
He voted YES on federalizing rules for drivers licenses to hinder terrorists
He voted YES on making the USAPATRIOT Act permanent
He voted YES on allowing electronic surveillance without a warrant
He voted YES on authorizing military force in Iraq
He voted YES on emergency $78Billion for war in Iraq and Afghanistan
He voted YES on declaring Iraq part of the War on Terror with no exit date
He voted NO on reducing US troops out of Iraq starting in 90 days
He voted YES on limited prescription drug benefit for Medicare recipients
He voted YES on providing $70million on Section 8 Housing vouchers
He voted YES on extending unemployment benefits to 59 weeks
He voted YES on No Child Left Behind
He voted YES on Head Start Act

Maybe you don't realize that some of the characters were supposed to be the villains.

But he has "Paul" in his name, so of course he counts by the very loose standards around here.

Not only are libertarians consistently against war, not just when the wrong person is in office...
Not only are libertarians against the drug war...
Not only were libertarians in favor of gay marriage before the progressives were...
Not only were libertarians in favor of interracial marriage before the progressives were...
Not only do libertarians want to legalize prostitution...
Not only are libertarians even stronger in defense of the 1st Amendment...
Not only do libertarians oppose ever single instance of police abusing the people that we are aware of...
Not only do libertarians want to slash the military budget...
Not only are a super-majority of libertarians pro-choice...
Not only are libertarians opposed to business subsidies...
Not only are libertarians opposed to business bailouts...
Not only are libertarians opposed to corporate welfare...


The real gripe that conservatives and progressives have with libertarians is that libertarians won't "admit" that libertarians are conservative.

 

[dismal]

What are your criteria for "fascist state"?

Wait, I got this:

1) A Republican won the last election.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/mod/mussolini-fascism.asp

Modern History Sourcebook:
Benito Mussolini:
What is Fascism, 1932

In 1932 Mussolini wrote (with the help of Giovanni Gentile) and entry for the Italian Encyclopedia on the definition of fascism.

-----

The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State. The conception of the Liberal State is not that of a directing force, guiding the play and development, both material and spiritual, of a collective body, but merely a force limited to the function of recording results: on the other hand, the Fascist State is itself conscious and has itself a will and a personality -- thus it may be called the "ethic" State.... ...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone....

And blah, blah, blah.

 

[Angry Floof]

What are your criteria for "fascist state"?

Wait, I got this:

1) A Republican won the last election.

Of course you did. You couldn't see past that to save your life. Shutting out information is essential to maintaining absolute loyalty to an ideological identity.