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Are there concrete arguments against non-conservative Christianity?

Politesse

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I'm especially interested to learn whether there have been any significant authors or thinkers whose focus was the discrediting of liberal or progressive Christianity. I have mastered many of the "classic" atheist texts, but they tend to have either Baptist Protestantism or conservative Catholicism in their cross-hairs, at best giving a few side-swipes at the supposed hypocrisy or transitional nature of non-conservatives but not really addressing this variant of the faith head-on. I find the same trend in online discourse, but that is not exactly scraping the top of the intellectual barrel. Has anyone taken on liberal Christianity in a more serious way?

I am particularly interested in arguments for why one should not choose to follow a secularized, religiously ecumenical, openly-questioning variant of the faith. I get that, from an atheist perspective, it is of course wrong to follow any sort of religion simply because it is religion, posits unnecessary entities, etc etc. But I'm looking for something more specific to prog Christianity.
 
I'm especially interested to learn whether there have been any significant authors or thinkers whose focus was the discrediting of liberal or progressive Christianity. I have mastered many of the "classic" atheist texts, but they tend to have either Baptist Protestantism or conservative Catholicism in their cross-hairs, at best giving a few side-swipes at the supposed hypocrisy or transitional nature of non-conservatives but not really addressing this variant of the faith head-on. I find the same trend in online discourse, but that is not exactly scraping the top of the intellectual barrel. Has anyone taken on liberal Christianity in a more serious way?

I am particularly interested in arguments for why one should not choose to follow a secularized, religiously ecumenical, openly-questioning variant of the faith. I get that, from an atheist perspective, it is of course wrong to follow any sort of religion simply because it is religion, posits unnecessary entities, etc etc. But I'm looking for something more specific to prog Christianity.

The arguments against Christian truth claims are not specific to the conservative/liberal or strident/moderate divide.

Christian truth claims are not to be regarded as true because they have not been true. Whether the person making unsupported truth claims is liberal or conservative is irrelevant.

As Aron Ra says, if you can't prove it, you don't know it.
 
I'm especially interested to learn whether there have been any significant authors or thinkers whose focus was the discrediting of liberal or progressive Christianity. I have mastered many of the "classic" atheist texts, but they tend to have either Baptist Protestantism or conservative Catholicism in their cross-hairs, at best giving a few side-swipes at the supposed hypocrisy or transitional nature of non-conservatives but not really addressing this variant of the faith head-on. I find the same trend in online discourse, but that is not exactly scraping the top of the intellectual barrel. Has anyone taken on liberal Christianity in a more serious way?

I am particularly interested in arguments for why one should not choose to follow a secularized, religiously ecumenical, openly-questioning variant of the faith. I get that, from an atheist perspective, it is of course wrong to follow any sort of religion simply because it is religion, posits unnecessary entities, etc etc. But I'm looking for something more specific to prog Christianity.

Just because I've never heard of it doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I don't recall ever reading a liberal vs. conservative... thing when it comes to proof of the supernatural. Whether leprechauns pulled the lever for Trump, or whether they pulled it for Hillary is immaterial until leprechauns are shown to exist.
 
I'm especially interested to learn whether there have been any significant authors or thinkers whose focus was the discrediting of liberal or progressive Christianity. I have mastered many of the "classic" atheist texts, but they tend to have either Baptist Protestantism or conservative Catholicism in their cross-hairs, at best giving a few side-swipes at the supposed hypocrisy or transitional nature of non-conservatives but not really addressing this variant of the faith head-on. I find the same trend in online discourse, but that is not exactly scraping the top of the intellectual barrel. Has anyone taken on liberal Christianity in a more serious way?

I am particularly interested in arguments for why one should not choose to follow a secularized, religiously ecumenical, openly-questioning variant of the faith. I get that, from an atheist perspective, it is of course wrong to follow any sort of religion simply because it is religion, posits unnecessary entities, etc etc. But I'm looking for something more specific to prog Christianity.
I'm not sure I can point to significant authors or thinkers; I would need more information about the tenets of a "secularized, religiously ecumenical, openly-questioning variant of the faith". Even if I can't find any from other people, I'm sure I can make a case that is different from a generic case against religion or even against theism, at least as long as the religion you have in mind has specific tenets I can challenge (if not, then I only have a generic case, precisely because it's a generic sort of belief).

ETA: generally speaking, I need to know the specific tenets of the religion in order to make a tailored case against it. For example, if your religion holds that Jesus was morally perfect, I would argue he was not. If it holds that he was morally great, a hero or a saint or something like that, I would argue (depending on how it treats the Bible) either that that is false, or that it is epistemically irrational to believe it is true, etc. But I need more information before I can make a case.
 
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I'm especially interested to learn whether there have been any significant authors or thinkers whose focus was the discrediting of liberal or progressive Christianity. I have mastered many of the "classic" atheist texts, but they tend to have either Baptist Protestantism or conservative Catholicism in their cross-hairs, at best giving a few side-swipes at the supposed hypocrisy or transitional nature of non-conservatives but not really addressing this variant of the faith head-on. I find the same trend in online discourse, but that is not exactly scraping the top of the intellectual barrel. Has anyone taken on liberal Christianity in a more serious way?

I am particularly interested in arguments for why one should not choose to follow a secularized, religiously ecumenical, openly-questioning variant of the faith. I get that, from an atheist perspective, it is of course wrong to follow any sort of religion simply because it is religion, posits unnecessary entities, etc etc. But I'm looking for something more specific to prog Christianity.

What is to be gained by discrediting liberal or progressive Christianity? Is there some kind of point system, to keep score?

Is there some point level where a liberal and progressive Christian has to admit they've been wrong all along and stop preaching love for all and the brotherhood of mankind?
 
Has anyone taken on liberal Christianity in a more serious way?

I don't know of anyone who has explicitly made the case that Christianity is fundamentally conservative and/or cannot be liberal, no.

Seems to be a hard case to make what with Jesus (allegedly) rejecting the traditions of the faith he was born into, and Constantine throwing out traditional Roman gods in favor of Jesus. Protestantism is of course a rejection of orthodoxy with nails and doors and such.

Granted, this doesn't mean that modern sects can't align with the current understanding of "liberal" and "conservative," but overall I think a case can be made that at it's core Christianity isn't conservative.
 
The debunkers of liberal Christianity are conservative Christians.
 
I don't think that most atheists really have a problem with liberal or progressive versions of Christianity, or any other liberal religion for that matter. I certainly don't. I'd fit in just fine with a bunch of UUs. Imo, it's all mythological in nature, but if you pick the sweet cherries of religion and throw out the sour ones, I'm fine with that.

But, steve made a good point. It's usually the evangelicals that scorn liberal versions of Christianity.
 
The problem with a rational debunking of liberal christianity is that they so rarely make concrete, provable claims.

You can't argue against a feeling.
 
The debunkers of liberal Christianity are conservative Christians.

I've done a pretty good deal of debunking, and it covers several versions of Christianity that would qualify as "liberal" (ETA: and so, "non-conservative") But Politesse version is unknown, so I don't want to make a case in order to be told that that's not liberal (ETA: or not "non-conservative") Christianity. I need to know what he's talking about before I can make a case.
 
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[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=365&v=5wV_REEdvxo[/YOUTUBE]

Start at about 4:50, there.

Seems to me that liberal faiths tend towards deism, fideism, or even frank agnosticism. As that video points out, the vaguer the God you believe in, the less relevance it has to our lives. Fideism, belief purely on faith with no attempt at rational justification, has the same problem as apophatic theology; trust Jesus & Mo to have a trenchant commentary on that. :)
http://www.jesusandmo.net/wp-content/uploads/tell2.png

tell2.png

But as Angra and others have pointed out, if we're asked for concrete arguments, we'll need more concrete definitions of what you mean by 'non-conservative Christianity'.
 
What is to be gained by discrediting liberal or progressive Christianity? Is there some kind of point system, to keep score?

Is there some point level where a liberal and progressive Christian has to admit they've been wrong all along and stop preaching love for all and the brotherhood of mankind?

If they practiced it....
 
The problem with a rational debunking of liberal christianity is that they so rarely make concrete, provable claims.

You can't argue against a feeling.
How about arguing against someone who thinks facts are opinions?

I have a friend who says at this point in her life, her faith is what keeps her going. So is it cruel to attack it when I know she votes her conscience, which is what her pastor leads her to?

Should Christians get to vote, since God takes care of them? I don't think so.
 
The debunkers of liberal Christianity are conservative Christians.

They are not very good at laying out rational cases for anything. :D

This Op reminds me of Mark 9:38

"John said to Jesus, “Teacher, we saw someone using your name to cast out demons, but we told him to stop because he wasn’t in our group.”"
 
The debunkers of liberal Christianity are conservative Christians.

I've done a pretty good deal of debunking, and it covers several versions of Christianity that would qualify as "liberal" (ETA: and so, "non-conservative") But Politesse version is unknown, so I don't want to make a case in order to be told that that's not liberal (ETA: or not "non-conservative") Christianity. I need to know what he's talking about before I can make a case.

I had no particular variant in mind. Liberal Christianity is quite diverse (as is, for that matter, conservative Christianity). But since there have been liberal strains of the faith for a very long time, I was curious what, if any, arguments had ever been tailored in their direction. As for me personally, no one would consider me a good representative of any particular group I shouldn't think.

I think the libera in liberal, when speaking of Christianity, is generally understood as freedom from past orthodoxies, traditional political power structures, and the intellectual enslavement of the literalist hermeneutic with respect to the Bible.
 
I'm especially interested to learn whether there have been any significant authors or thinkers whose focus was the discrediting of liberal or progressive Christianity. I have mastered many of the "classic" atheist texts, but they tend to have either Baptist Protestantism or conservative Catholicism in their cross-hairs, at best giving a few side-swipes at the supposed hypocrisy or transitional nature of non-conservatives but not really addressing this variant of the faith head-on. I find the same trend in online discourse, but that is not exactly scraping the top of the intellectual barrel. Has anyone taken on liberal Christianity in a more serious way?

I am particularly interested in arguments for why one should not choose to follow a secularized, religiously ecumenical, openly-questioning variant of the faith. I get that, from an atheist perspective, it is of course wrong to follow any sort of religion simply because it is religion, posits unnecessary entities, etc etc. But I'm looking for something more specific to prog Christianity.

The arguments against Christian truth claims are not specific to the conservative/liberal or strident/moderate divide.

Christian truth claims are not to be regarded as true because they have not been true. Whether the person making unsupported truth claims is liberal or conservative is irrelevant.

As Aron Ra says, if you can't prove it, you don't know it.

"been true" should be "been proved true."

Sorry for the typo.
 
The debunkers of liberal Christianity are conservative Christians.

I've done a pretty good deal of debunking, and it covers several versions of Christianity that would qualify as "liberal" (ETA: and so, "non-conservative") But Politesse version is unknown, so I don't want to make a case in order to be told that that's not liberal (ETA: or not "non-conservative") Christianity. I need to know what he's talking about before I can make a case.

I had no particular variant in mind. Liberal Christianity is quite diverse (as is, for that matter, conservative Christianity). But since there have been liberal strains of the faith for a very long time, I was curious what, if any, arguments had ever been tailored in their direction. As for me personally, no one would consider me a good representative of any particular group I shouldn't think.

I think the libera in liberal, when speaking of Christianity, is generally understood as freedom from past orthodoxies, traditional political power structures, and the intellectual enslavement of the literalist hermeneutic with respect to the Bible.

Okay, so how about the following brief argument against the epistemic rationality of the belief that Jesus was morally perfect - which is held by liberal Christians like Randal Rauser -, or even good as a moral teacher (which is way more than would be needed to target most versions of liberal Christianity).

Argument?

Let's look at the Gospel. For example (there are other problems), in several passages, Jesus unmistakably endorses OT law, not necessarily for application to Christians (that is more obscure), but surely as the law given by a morally good all-powerful creator to the ancient Israelites. That shows a big error in judgment on his part, assuming that the Gospel's passages in question are accurate.
Is there a way around that?
The liberal Christian might say that those passages are not accurate precisely because in them, Jesus makes serious errors in moral judgement, which he would not. But then, what is the evidence that he would not? If it's based just on other passages in which Jesus does better, that's not a rational way of assessing whether he was good at ascertaining moral truth, but rather, an assumption beforehand.
The liberal Christian might alternatively argue that those passages have been mistranslated. But then, most liberal Christians simply do not have the knowledge to do the translation themselves, and there are a good number of people who can and disagree with such claims. What is the basis for the preference to exclude those passages?
Moreover, even if we exclude some passages, what remains also does not show any good evidence of someone better than we are at figuring out moral truths, as we can tell by looking at his claims. Now, the liberal Christian can say that the passages are obscure and we do not know what Jesus said, but then we have no good reason to believe he was a good moral teacher. In fact, most people aren't, so without any specific evidence that he was, one should hold that he probably was not.

Granted, the liberal Christian might have other claims; this is just a brief argument, but all such claims can be tackled, at least if they're clear enough to be understood.

I'm not sure that argument is concrete enough for the purposes of your question, but here's a narrower one:

Source: http://ebible.org/web/MAT05.htm

Matthew 5 said:
27. You have heard that it was said, § ‘You shall not commit adultery;’✡ 28 but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna.* 30 If your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off, and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna.
Here, Jesus implies that looking at a woman with lust is immoral, which of course depends on the case and often is not, but furthermore, he claims that people who behave immorally are at risk of being "cast into Gehenna", i.e., a horrific afterlife punishment, which Jesus implies (given context) is meted out by a morally perfect creator.
So, Jesus was very mistaken about morality in that passage. It did not end there, though:

Matthew 5 said:
31 “It was also said, ‘Whoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorce,’✡ 32 but I tell you that whoever puts away his wife, except for the cause of sexual immorality, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries her when she is put away commits adultery.

It is obviously not true that the only valid reason to leave one's wife is sexual immorality. Surely, attempted murder on the husband (for example) would count!

But let's leave that aside. There is a more fundamental problem with this passage: if a woman is abandoned by her husband, she does not commit adultery or behave immorally for that reason (which was implied by Jesus here) if she finds a new partner and gets married again (legally, it depends on the law of the land, but Jesus was talking about morality). The new husband does nothing wrong, either, for that reason alone (there might be other reasons, but not that).

So, once again, Jesus is quite mistaken in his moral assessments.
 
What is to be gained by discrediting liberal or progressive Christianity? Is there some kind of point system, to keep score?

Is there some point level where a liberal and progressive Christian has to admit they've been wrong all along and stop preaching love for all and the brotherhood of mankind?

If they practiced it....

There won't be any crows landing on this thread.
 
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