Christian immorality

[DrZoidberg]

I just thought of yet another Christian theological hole.

1. Christians need the Bible to keep them good.
2. Atheists don't. They manage to be good on their own.

The conclusion is that Christians are evil who are made good by the Bible. So far so good. But why would evil people cling to a religion in order to make them good? If they are truly evil why put all this effort in making them into something they're not? Why not embrace their true nature? It makes no sense.

And above all... why don't Christians uphold atheists as morally superior people to emulate, since we manage to be moral without the need of divine guidance.

 

[bigfield]

How many Christians actually believe both of those absolutes?

Christians likely have a range opinions on this subject:

i.e. one of

1. Christians are good because of the Bible and atheists are evil.
2a. Both Christians and atheists figure out how to be good without the Bible.
2b. Both Christians and atheists figure out how to be good without the Bible, but Christians are even gooder because of the Bible.

 

[DrZoidberg]

2b. Both Christians and atheists figure out how to be good without the Bible, but Christians are even gooder because of the Bible.

But they aren't. Religious people are over-represented for all criminality, including violent crime. So the evidence alone speaks against it.

 

[bigfield]

2b. Both Christians and atheists figure out how to be good without the Bible, but Christians are even gooder because of the Bible.

But they aren't. Religious people are over-represented for all criminality, including violent crime. So the evidence alone speaks against it.

Sorry, I was listings Christian worldviews, not statements of fact, but I forgot to make that clear in my post.

 

[phands]

The blight known as xtianity is inherently immoral because it venerates an act of awful immoral evil and worships an awful, immoral, savage, so-called deity who, according to his own "holy" book is a genocidal monster with the impulse control of trump on E.

 

[Tigers!]

I just thought of yet another Christian theological hole.

1. Christians need the Bible to keep them good.
2. Atheists don't. They manage to be good on their own.

The conclusion is that Christians are evil who are made good by the Bible. So far so good. But why would evil people cling to a religion in order to make them good? If they are truly evil why put all this effort in making them into something they're not? Why not embrace their true nature? It makes no sense.

And above all... why don't Christians uphold atheists as morally superior people to emulate, since we manage to be moral without the need of divine guidance.

I am always humbled by the way you quietly tell us of your moral superiority.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I just thought of yet another Christian theological hole.

1. Christians need the Bible to keep them good.
2. Atheists don't. They manage to be good on their own.

The conclusion is that Christians are evil who are made good by the Bible. So far so good. But why would evil people cling to a religion in order to make them good? If they are truly evil why put all this effort in making them into something they're not? Why not embrace their true nature? It makes no sense.

And above all... why don't Christians uphold atheists as morally superior people to emulate, since we manage to be moral without the need of divine guidance.

I am always humbled by the way you quietly tell us of your moral superiority.

I didn't. I'm just following Christian logic. The Christians have said that atheists are morally superior. It's implicit from the Bible.

 

[Bronzeage]

I just thought of yet another Christian theological hole.

1. Christians need the Bible to keep them good.
2. Atheists don't. They manage to be good on their own.

The conclusion is that Christians are evil who are made good by the Bible. So far so good. But why would evil people cling to a religion in order to make them good? If they are truly evil why put all this effort in making them into something they're not? Why not embrace their true nature? It makes no sense.

And above all... why don't Christians uphold atheists as morally superior people to emulate, since we manage to be moral without the need of divine guidance.

Is this the battle of the straw men?

 

[DrZoidberg]

I just thought of yet another Christian theological hole.

1. Christians need the Bible to keep them good.
2. Atheists don't. They manage to be good on their own.

The conclusion is that Christians are evil who are made good by the Bible. So far so good. But why would evil people cling to a religion in order to make them good? If they are truly evil why put all this effort in making them into something they're not? Why not embrace their true nature? It makes no sense.

And above all... why don't Christians uphold atheists as morally superior people to emulate, since we manage to be moral without the need of divine guidance.

Is this the battle of the straw men?

I'm not arguing for anything real. It's just fun to uncover yet another logical hole in Christian theology. Since most Christians aren't fundamentalists, this doesn't apply to them. But if they're fundamentalists it does.

I do think the implication of the Bible is that Christians are evil that need moral help, while atheists are good and don't.

 

[Bronzeage]

I just thought of yet another Christian theological hole.

1. Christians need the Bible to keep them good.
2. Atheists don't. They manage to be good on their own.

The conclusion is that Christians are evil who are made good by the Bible. So far so good. But why would evil people cling to a religion in order to make them good? If they are truly evil why put all this effort in making them into something they're not? Why not embrace their true nature? It makes no sense.

And above all... why don't Christians uphold atheists as morally superior people to emulate, since we manage to be moral without the need of divine guidance.

Is this the battle of the straw men?

I'm not arguing for anything real. It's just fun to uncover yet another logical hole in Christian theology. Since most Christians aren't fundamentalists, this doesn't apply to them. But if they're fundamentalists it does.

I do think the implication of the Bible is that Christians are evil that need moral help, while atheists are good and don't.

Where did you get the idea that atheists are good and don't need help? I don't see that played out in everyday life.

 

[Jobar]

http://www.jesusandmo.net/wp-content/uploads/2014-09-2514.png

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'm not arguing for anything real. It's just fun to uncover yet another logical hole in Christian theology. Since most Christians aren't fundamentalists, this doesn't apply to them. But if they're fundamentalists it does.

I do think the implication of the Bible is that Christians are evil that need moral help, while atheists are good and don't.

Where did you get the idea that atheists are good and don't need help? I don't see that played out in everyday life.

It's implied since atheists are good without the Bible. It must mean that Christians need to put work in to be on the same level as atheists

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It's implied since atheists are good without the Bible. It must mean that Christians need to put work in to be on the same level as atheists

I think Christians still need to do the exact same amount of work. It's just that afterwards, they ret-con their moral positions to have some Biblical passage which agrees with those positions become the source of them.

 

[abaddon]

I just thought of yet another Christian theological hole.

1. Christians need the Bible to keep them good.
2. Atheists don't. They manage to be good on their own.

The conclusion is that Christians are evil who are made good by the Bible. So far so good. But why would evil people cling to a religion in order to make them good? If they are truly evil why put all this effort in making them into something they're not? Why not embrace their true nature? It makes no sense.

And above all... why don't Christians uphold atheists as morally superior people to emulate, since we manage to be moral without the need of divine guidance.

Christians don't believe you can manage that though.

1. Christians believe that a fervent belief will guide them to be good. They have a code to what is objectively good. The two together are a powerful tool to goodness or to being granted grace, the favor of God.
2. Atheists don't have fervent belief nor an objective code so they've got nothing much to help them be good except fear of man's laws. They live outside of God's grace.

The conclusion is that Christians are evil who are made good by belief in objective goodness, with help from Jesus. What's the originating motivation? There's some bit of God's image in everyone so no one is "truly evil" so they recognized the "good Word" when they encountered it and didn't defy it like atheists do.

"Uphold atheists as morally superior people to emulate"? Um, no... they think we are the ones who live in a state of struggle. You've credited to theists an atheist criticism of theism. Which is why you are, correctly, being told you're attacking a straw man.

 

[Bronzeage]

I'm not arguing for anything real. It's just fun to uncover yet another logical hole in Christian theology. Since most Christians aren't fundamentalists, this doesn't apply to them. But if they're fundamentalists it does.

I do think the implication of the Bible is that Christians are evil that need moral help, while atheists are good and don't.

Where did you get the idea that atheists are good and don't need help? I don't see that played out in everyday life.

It's implied since atheists are good without the Bible. It must mean that Christians need to put work in to be on the same level as atheists

No, the implication is that atheists are better than Christians, which is something not in evidence.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I just thought of yet another Christian theological hole.

1. Christians need the Bible to keep them good.
2. Atheists don't. They manage to be good on their own.

The conclusion is that Christians are evil who are made good by the Bible. So far so good. But why would evil people cling to a religion in order to make them good? If they are truly evil why put all this effort in making them into something they're not? Why not embrace their true nature? It makes no sense.

And above all... why don't Christians uphold atheists as morally superior people to emulate, since we manage to be moral without the need of divine guidance.

Christians don't believe you can manage that though.

1. Christians believe that a fervent belief will guide them to be good. They have a code to what is objectively good. The two together are a powerful tool to goodness or to being granted grace, the favor of God.
2. Atheists don't have fervent belief nor an objective code so they've got nothing much to help them be good except fear of man's laws. They live outside of God's grace.

The conclusion is that Christians are evil who are made good by belief in objective goodness, with help from Jesus. What's the originating motivation? There's some bit of God's image in everyone so no one is "truly evil" so they recognized the "good Word" when they encountered it and didn't defy it like atheists do.

"Uphold atheists as morally superior people to emulate"? Um, no... they think we are the ones who live in a state of struggle. You've credited to theists an atheist criticism of theism. Which is why you are, correctly, being told you're attacking a straw man.

But isn't being in the grace of God being good?

 

[abaddon]

But isn't being in the grace of God being good?

I don't know. That's why I put an "or" in there to cover wider ground.

I have a mix of memories of what Christians have said about grace. We're sinful but God grants some people grace, which doesn't make them wholly good but just allows they won't suffer hell for their innate wickedness. I think that's the calvinist view. Or otherwise the sins are washed clean by God's grace, when one opens the heart to Jesus. I remember that view from a baptist church. Either way it's unmerited forgiveness so all in all I don't think Christians are fighting to stay good by being religious but are seeking solace for being sinners. 'I am good without God so you ought to emulate me' must seem like a double-whammy of hubris to them.

But I don't know the details of the various views. I'm just pointing out the general theology is much different from your presentation. I think my presentation is closer. But for the details, it'd be a good idea to find out from Christians or a work of scholarship.

 

[WAB]

I just thought of yet another Christian theological hole.

1. Christians need the Bible to keep them good.
2. Atheists don't. They manage to be good on their own.

The conclusion is that Christians are evil who are made good by the Bible. So far so good. But why would evil people cling to a religion in order to make them good? If they are truly evil why put all this effort in making them into something they're not? Why not embrace their true nature? It makes no sense.

And above all... why don't Christians uphold atheists as morally superior people to emulate, since we manage to be moral without the need of divine guidance.

Christians don't believe you can manage that though.

1. Christians believe that a fervent belief will guide them to be good. They have a code to what is objectively good. The two together are a powerful tool to goodness or to being granted grace, the favor of God.
2. Atheists don't have fervent belief nor an objective code so they've got nothing much to help them be good except fear of man's laws. They live outside of God's grace.

The conclusion is that Christians are evil who are made good by belief in objective goodness, with help from Jesus. What's the originating motivation? There's some bit of God's image in everyone so no one is "truly evil" so they recognized the "good Word" when they encountered it and didn't defy it like atheists do.

"Uphold atheists as morally superior people to emulate"? Um, no... they think we are the ones who live in a state of struggle. You've credited to theists an atheist criticism of theism. Which is why you are, correctly, being told you're attacking a straw man.

But isn't being in the grace of God being good?

Not necessarily. On the Calvinist view (as abaddon mentioned), obtaining God's grace has nothing to do with yourself. A person does, and can do, nothing whatsoever to gain God's grace. It's all God, and it's a matter of luck. The Elect are like kids on Christmas morning who get a really amazing toy, while the non-elect (who may or may not be as well behaved - it matters nothing), get a lump of coal (not to mention an eternity of torment) in their ratty stocking.

I find Calvinism to be a particularly pernicious and repugnant belief system, and Calvin was extremely influential.

 

[Politesse]

I'm not arguing for anything real. It's just fun to uncover yet another logical hole in Christian theology. Since most Christians aren't fundamentalists, this doesn't apply to them. But if they're fundamentalists it does.

Thank God you pointed that out, it would have been unnecessarily tiring if I mistakenly took your argument seriously.

Maybe pointed out something like, I'm pretty sure that most fundamentalists do not, in fact, tend to think that atheists are "good without God". I am in fact pretty sure that this is the exact opposite of what your average fundamentalist believes about atheism.

 

[Tigers!]

I'm not arguing for anything real. It's just fun to uncover yet another logical hole in Christian theology. Since most Christians aren't fundamentalists, this doesn't apply to them. But if they're fundamentalists it does.

I do think the implication of the Bible is that Christians are evil that need moral help, while atheists are good and don't.

Where did you get the idea that atheists are good and don't need help? I don't see that played out in everyday life.

It's implied since atheists are good without the Bible. It must mean that Christians need to put work in to be on the same level as atheists

Christians do try to practice humility (not always successfully). We acknowledge that without God's help humility is not possible for us.
Blowing one's own trumpet is rather crass.