The glass ceiling is now made of concrete.

[Toni]

The article is the result of that #MeToo has circumvented due process and that now any woman can take down any man (she's had some physical proximity to) she wishes by fabricating a sexual assault and making a public accusation. That's the current situation. We're only talking about fabricated sexual assaults. How the hell is a man supposed to protect himself against that other than to keep away from young women?

So far, you've provided zero evidence that women are fabricating sexual assaults in order to take down men.

Really? You don't seem to.

Really? You don't seem to know anything about me.

Personally, I don't believe that men are babies who are incapable of managing to be alone with a woman without making her feel threatened or demeaned.

Although I find it difficult to still refer to adult males as men if they lack the moral fiber, courage and self control to be alone in a room with a woman.

What has that got to do with it? Seriously? WTF are you talking about? Please explain how these last two sentences is relevant to:

1) ...the article.
2) ...anything I've said so far.

You are aware that a woman might say she has felt threatened by a man even when she hasn't been?

Aside from your claims, where is the evidence that women are fabricating sexual assaults? The individuals you pointed out were accused by multiple women. It boggles the mind that any corporation would remove a valued journalist or CEO because of trumped up allegations. It is especially interesting that is your claim with regards to the journalist--whose co-worker's jobs it is to discover the truth and report it. And that you seem to believe the fact that police did not pursue charges means that nothing happened, or that if it was short of actual forcible rape that it wasn't out of bounds of normal workplace behavior.

I am aware that perceptions matter and one individual might find something offensive where no offense was intended. I am aware that some men find nothing wrong with patting women's asses at work, shoving their tongues down their throats, etc. I'm aware that some women are offended for little reason. I'm aware that some men give great reason for offense and deny that they did anything wrong.

Maybe you could point out where I or anybody else said that evidence does not matter.

 

[DrZoidberg]

So far, you've provided zero evidence that women are fabricating sexual assaults in order to take down men.

Again... stop fantasizing about what you think this thread should be about. If you want to discuss that... why don't you make your own thread? Quit trying to derail it.

If these powerful men haven't raped anyone, then they have nothing to fear from honest non-accusations. But they do have a reason to fear false accusations. Which explains why it's the false accusations they're worried about.

As soon as a new #MeToo accusation has surfaced the reaction from the public is swift and damning. Who of the accused hasn't been impacted? Kevin Spacey was kicked off House of Cards instantly. Harvey Weinstein, while guilty, was impacted immediately. Way before any guilty verdict had come in. Sometimes the lynch mob gets the right guy, but do you really want to bet your life on the smarts of a mob? In Sweden the most famous #MeToo accused (Fredrik Virtanen) turned out to be complete bullshit and just the tip of a long harmasserent campaign from one journalist. He still can't get a job. Even a year after being exonerated. There was even a documentary on TV about it. But nobody cared. He's still damaged goods. That's going to be top of mind for the Swedish CEO's I'm talking about.

The problem is that for #MeToo due process is completely ignored. Anybody accused is instantly assumed guilty. If a woman does want to take down a man she has a relation to it's easy today. That's all these powerful men need to know. And they're acting on that knowledge. Don't forget that if you are powerful you will by necessity make a lot of enemies. It comes with the job. They have every reason to be paranoid.

Really? You don't seem to know anything about me.

You did try to woman-splain to me about how mentoring is done and that didn't go so well. That's what I'm basing the statement on.

Personally, I don't believe that men are babies who are incapable of managing to be alone with a woman without making her feel threatened or demeaned.

Although I find it difficult to still refer to adult males as men if they lack the moral fiber, courage and self control to be alone in a room with a woman.

What has that got to do with it? Seriously? WTF are you talking about? Please explain how these last two sentences is relevant to:

1) ...the article.
2) ...anything I've said so far.

You are aware that a woman might say she has felt threatened by a man even when she hasn't been?

Aside from your claims, where is the evidence that women are fabricating sexual assaults? The individuals you pointed out were accused by multiple women. It boggles the mind that any corporation would remove a valued journalist or CEO because of trumped up allegations. It is especially interesting that is your claim with regards to the journalist--whose co-worker's jobs it is to discover the truth and report it. And that you seem to believe the fact that police did not pursue charges means that nothing happened, or that if it was short of actual forcible rape that it wasn't out of bounds of normal workplace behavior.

I am aware that perceptions matter and one individual might find something offensive where no offense was intended. I am aware that some men find nothing wrong with patting women's asses at work, shoving their tongues down their throats, etc. I'm aware that some women are offended for little reason. I'm aware that some men give great reason for offense and deny that they did anything wrong.

Maybe you could point out where I or anybody else said that evidence does not matter.

Stop dodging. Just answer the question? It annoys me that you keep on trying to derail this thread. So you could at least show me the courtesy of answering this direct question? WTF has your two statments got to do with this thread or the article? How are they relevant?

 

[Toni]

Again... stop fantasizing about what you think this thread should be about. If you want to discuss that... why don't you make your own thread? Quit trying to derail it.

If these powerful men haven't raped anyone, then they have nothing to fear from honest non-accusations. But they do have a reason to fear false accusations. Which explains why it's the false accusations they're worried about.

As soon as a new #MeToo accusation has surfaced the reaction from the public is swift and damning. Who of the accused hasn't been impacted? Kevin Spacey was kicked off House of Cards instantly. Harvey Weinstein, while guilty, was impacted immediately. Way before any guilty verdict had come in. Sometimes the lynch mob gets the right guy, but do you really want to bet your life on the smarts of a mob? In Sweden the most famous #MeToo accused (Fredrik Virtanen) turned out to be complete bullshit and just the tip of a long harmasserent campaign from one journalist. He still can't get a job. Even a year after being exonerated. There was even a documentary on TV about it. But nobody cared. He's still damaged goods. That's going to be top of mind for the Swedish CEO's I'm talking about.

The problem is that for #MeToo due process is completely ignored. Anybody accused is instantly assumed guilty. If a woman does want to take down a man she has a relation to it's easy today. That's all these powerful men need to know. And they're acting on that knowledge. Don't forget that if you are powerful you will by necessity make a lot of enemies. It comes with the job. They have every reason to be paranoid.



You did try to woman-splain to me about how mentoring is done and that didn't go so well. That's what I'm basing the statement on.

Personally, I don't believe that men are babies who are incapable of managing to be alone with a woman without making her feel threatened or demeaned.

Although I find it difficult to still refer to adult males as men if they lack the moral fiber, courage and self control to be alone in a room with a woman.

What has that got to do with it? Seriously? WTF are you talking about? Please explain how these last two sentences is relevant to:

1) ...the article.
2) ...anything I've said so far.

You are aware that a woman might say she has felt threatened by a man even when she hasn't been?

Aside from your claims, where is the evidence that women are fabricating sexual assaults? The individuals you pointed out were accused by multiple women. It boggles the mind that any corporation would remove a valued journalist or CEO because of trumped up allegations. It is especially interesting that is your claim with regards to the journalist--whose co-worker's jobs it is to discover the truth and report it. And that you seem to believe the fact that police did not pursue charges means that nothing happened, or that if it was short of actual forcible rape that it wasn't out of bounds of normal workplace behavior.

I am aware that perceptions matter and one individual might find something offensive where no offense was intended. I am aware that some men find nothing wrong with patting women's asses at work, shoving their tongues down their throats, etc. I'm aware that some women are offended for little reason. I'm aware that some men give great reason for offense and deny that they did anything wrong.

Maybe you could point out where I or anybody else said that evidence does not matter.

Stop dodging. Just answer the question? It annoys me that you keep on trying to derail this thread. So you could at least show me the courtesy of answering this direct question? WTF has your two statments got to do with this thread or the article? How are they relevant?

Let's start with your OP. I've bolded things to help you:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

This shouldn't surprise anybody. This is what happens when the digital mob lynches mens careers based on nothing but unsubstantiated accusations.

It took about a week of #MeToo before I realised that it'll do more damage to women's rights and gender equality than helping it. I think women will increasingly be locked out of the early stepping stones of careers. Eventually women will be gone completely from any management positions in industry.

And I think this is where it's inevitably heading because there's no way to go back to the way it was.

Here are some quotes from the article you posted, apparently without really reading or understanding:

“Some men have voiced concerns to me that a false accusation is what they fear,” said Zweig, the lawyer. “These men fear what they cannot control.”

Nowhere in the article is there any evidence presented of false accusations. Just a lot about men who are scared that their behavior might have consequences.

Also from your article:

There are as many or more men who are responding in quite different ways. One, an investment adviser who manages about 100 employees, said he briefly reconsidered having one-on-one meetings with junior women. He thought about leaving his office door open, or inviting a third person into the room.

Finally, he landed on the solution: “Just try not to be an asshole.”

That’s pretty much the bottom line, said Ron Biscardi, chief executive officer of Context Capital Partners. “It’s really not that hard.”

Despite your claims that in Sweden, an innocent prominent journalist was forced out--it turns out there were MANY claims against him.

I think you are reading things--or not reading them--through your own special lens.

And yeah, I do know what mentoring is. Maybe you just need to take your man-goggles off and read what I write. Because it does not take place only in upper echelons of workplaces. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Again... stop fantasizing about what you think this thread should be about. If you want to discuss that... why don't you make your own thread? Quit trying to derail it.

If these powerful men haven't raped anyone, then they have nothing to fear from honest non-accusations. But they do have a reason to fear false accusations. Which explains why it's the false accusations they're worried about.

As soon as a new #MeToo accusation has surfaced the reaction from the public is swift and damning. Who of the accused hasn't been impacted? Kevin Spacey was kicked off House of Cards instantly. Harvey Weinstein, while guilty, was impacted immediately. Way before any guilty verdict had come in. Sometimes the lynch mob gets the right guy, but do you really want to bet your life on the smarts of a mob? In Sweden the most famous #MeToo accused (Fredrik Virtanen) turned out to be complete bullshit and just the tip of a long harmasserent campaign from one journalist. He still can't get a job. Even a year after being exonerated. There was even a documentary on TV about it. But nobody cared. He's still damaged goods. That's going to be top of mind for the Swedish CEO's I'm talking about.

The problem is that for #MeToo due process is completely ignored. Anybody accused is instantly assumed guilty. If a woman does want to take down a man she has a relation to it's easy today. That's all these powerful men need to know. And they're acting on that knowledge. Don't forget that if you are powerful you will by necessity make a lot of enemies. It comes with the job. They have every reason to be paranoid.



You did try to woman-splain to me about how mentoring is done and that didn't go so well. That's what I'm basing the statement on.

Although I find it difficult to still refer to adult males as men if they lack the moral fiber, courage and self control to be alone in a room with a woman.

What has that got to do with it? Seriously? WTF are you talking about? Please explain how these last two sentences is relevant to:

1) ...the article.
2) ...anything I've said so far.

You are aware that a woman might say she has felt threatened by a man even when she hasn't been?

Aside from your claims, where is the evidence that women are fabricating sexual assaults? The individuals you pointed out were accused by multiple women. It boggles the mind that any corporation would remove a valued journalist or CEO because of trumped up allegations. It is especially interesting that is your claim with regards to the journalist--whose co-worker's jobs it is to discover the truth and report it. And that you seem to believe the fact that police did not pursue charges means that nothing happened, or that if it was short of actual forcible rape that it wasn't out of bounds of normal workplace behavior.

I am aware that perceptions matter and one individual might find something offensive where no offense was intended. I am aware that some men find nothing wrong with patting women's asses at work, shoving their tongues down their throats, etc. I'm aware that some women are offended for little reason. I'm aware that some men give great reason for offense and deny that they did anything wrong.

Maybe you could point out where I or anybody else said that evidence does not matter.

Stop dodging. Just answer the question? It annoys me that you keep on trying to derail this thread. So you could at least show me the courtesy of answering this direct question? WTF has your two statments got to do with this thread or the article? How are they relevant?

Let's start with your OP. I've bolded things to help you:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

This shouldn't surprise anybody. This is what happens when the digital mob lynches mens careers based on nothing but unsubstantiated accusations.

It took about a week of #MeToo before I realised that it'll do more damage to women's rights and gender equality than helping it. I think women will increasingly be locked out of the early stepping stones of careers. Eventually women will be gone completely from any management positions in industry.

And I think this is where it's inevitably heading because there's no way to go back to the way it was.

Here are some quotes from the article you posted, apparently without really reading or understanding:

“Some men have voiced concerns to me that a false accusation is what they fear,” said Zweig, the lawyer. “These men fear what they cannot control.”

Nowhere in the article is there any evidence presented of false accusations. Just a lot about men who are scared that their behavior might have consequences.

That's a twisting if the truth and then some. You seem unwilling to have an adult conversation about this. I gave you a second chance and you blew it.

Also from your article:

There are as many or more men who are responding in quite different ways. One, an investment adviser who manages about 100 employees, said he briefly reconsidered having one-on-one meetings with junior women. He thought about leaving his office door open, or inviting a third person into the room.

Finally, he landed on the solution: “Just try not to be an asshole.”

That’s pretty much the bottom line, said Ron Biscardi, chief executive officer of Context Capital Partners. “It’s really not that hard.”

Why would men put up with that? I wouldn't.

Despite your claims that in Sweden, an innocent prominent journalist was forced out--it turns out there were MANY claims against him.

I think you are reading things--or not reading them--through your own special lens.

There were many accusations of him being a drunk asshole to women when out. Which he has admitted to. But hardly a reason for outrage, public condemnation or any sanction... what so ever. That was more just moral indignation and outrage.

Only two accusations were serious. One was the rape allegation. Which was thrown out of court in 2014 because it was a frivolous accusation. There's a longer story here. I know this case in great detail. It just screams of bullshit. There's many fucked up details about it.

The other one was an e-mail he sent to a 14 year old who had applied for an internship. He said she'd get the job if she slept with him. He didn't know she was 14 or anything about her. My guess is a drunken attempt at humour. Which I think was his defence. But either way, obviously not a serious question.

But that's not really my problem or why I created the thread. He was fired on the mere accusation. The fact that he was later exonerated cannot change that. That is extremely serious and bad. And has become an intrinsic part of #MeToo and why I just want to see the movement die now. Mob justice isn't justice at all.

And yeah, I do know what mentoring is. Maybe you just need to take your man-goggles off and read what I write. Because it does not take place only in upper echelons of workplaces. Sorry to burst your bubble.

That is true. But is what I'm talking about. Unless women penetrate the upper levels of industry gender equality won't happen. The stuff further down the pyramid is more frosting on the cake. If you fix the top the rest will magically get sorted.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

If you fix the top the rest will magically get sorted.

Exactly. It's like how racism got sorted out in America when Obama became President.

 

[Toni]

Again... stop fantasizing about what you think this thread should be about. If you want to discuss that... why don't you make your own thread? Quit trying to derail it.

If these powerful men haven't raped anyone, then they have nothing to fear from honest non-accusations. But they do have a reason to fear false accusations. Which explains why it's the false accusations they're worried about.

As soon as a new #MeToo accusation has surfaced the reaction from the public is swift and damning. Who of the accused hasn't been impacted? Kevin Spacey was kicked off House of Cards instantly. Harvey Weinstein, while guilty, was impacted immediately. Way before any guilty verdict had come in. Sometimes the lynch mob gets the right guy, but do you really want to bet your life on the smarts of a mob? In Sweden the most famous #MeToo accused (Fredrik Virtanen) turned out to be complete bullshit and just the tip of a long harmasserent campaign from one journalist. He still can't get a job. Even a year after being exonerated. There was even a documentary on TV about it. But nobody cared. He's still damaged goods. That's going to be top of mind for the Swedish CEO's I'm talking about.

The problem is that for #MeToo due process is completely ignored. Anybody accused is instantly assumed guilty. If a woman does want to take down a man she has a relation to it's easy today. That's all these powerful men need to know. And they're acting on that knowledge. Don't forget that if you are powerful you will by necessity make a lot of enemies. It comes with the job. They have every reason to be paranoid.



You did try to woman-splain to me about how mentoring is done and that didn't go so well. That's what I'm basing the statement on.

Although I find it difficult to still refer to adult males as men if they lack the moral fiber, courage and self control to be alone in a room with a woman.

What has that got to do with it? Seriously? WTF are you talking about? Please explain how these last two sentences is relevant to:

1) ...the article.
2) ...anything I've said so far.

You are aware that a woman might say she has felt threatened by a man even when she hasn't been?

Aside from your claims, where is the evidence that women are fabricating sexual assaults? The individuals you pointed out were accused by multiple women. It boggles the mind that any corporation would remove a valued journalist or CEO because of trumped up allegations. It is especially interesting that is your claim with regards to the journalist--whose co-worker's jobs it is to discover the truth and report it. And that you seem to believe the fact that police did not pursue charges means that nothing happened, or that if it was short of actual forcible rape that it wasn't out of bounds of normal workplace behavior.

I am aware that perceptions matter and one individual might find something offensive where no offense was intended. I am aware that some men find nothing wrong with patting women's asses at work, shoving their tongues down their throats, etc. I'm aware that some women are offended for little reason. I'm aware that some men give great reason for offense and deny that they did anything wrong.

Maybe you could point out where I or anybody else said that evidence does not matter.

Stop dodging. Just answer the question? It annoys me that you keep on trying to derail this thread. So you could at least show me the courtesy of answering this direct question? WTF has your two statments got to do with this thread or the article? How are they relevant?

Let's start with your OP. I've bolded things to help you:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

This shouldn't surprise anybody. This is what happens when the digital mob lynches mens careers based on nothing but unsubstantiated accusations.

It took about a week of #MeToo before I realised that it'll do more damage to women's rights and gender equality than helping it. I think women will increasingly be locked out of the early stepping stones of careers. Eventually women will be gone completely from any management positions in industry.

And I think this is where it's inevitably heading because there's no way to go back to the way it was.

Here are some quotes from the article you posted, apparently without really reading or understanding:

“Some men have voiced concerns to me that a false accusation is what they fear,” said Zweig, the lawyer. “These men fear what they cannot control.”

Nowhere in the article is there any evidence presented of false accusations. Just a lot about men who are scared that their behavior might have consequences.

That's a twisting if the truth and then some. You seem unwilling to have an adult conversation about this. I gave you a second chance and you blew it.

Also from your article:

There are as many or more men who are responding in quite different ways. One, an investment adviser who manages about 100 employees, said he briefly reconsidered having one-on-one meetings with junior women. He thought about leaving his office door open, or inviting a third person into the room.

Finally, he landed on the solution: “Just try not to be an asshole.”

That’s pretty much the bottom line, said Ron Biscardi, chief executive officer of Context Capital Partners. “It’s really not that hard.”

Why would men put up with that? I wouldn't.

Despite your claims that in Sweden, an innocent prominent journalist was forced out--it turns out there were MANY claims against him.

I think you are reading things--or not reading them--through your own special lens.

There were many accusations of him being a drunk asshole to women when out. Which he has admitted to. But hardly a reason for outrage, public condemnation or any sanction... what so ever. That was more just moral indignation and outrage.

Only two accusations were serious. One was the rape allegation. Which was thrown out of court in 2014 because it was a frivolous accusation. There's a longer story here. I know this case in great detail. It just screams of bullshit. There's many fucked up details about it.

The other one was an e-mail he sent to a 14 year old who had applied for an internship. He said she'd get the job if she slept with him. He didn't know she was 14 or anything about her. My guess is a drunken attempt at humour. Which I think was his defence. But either way, obviously not a serious question.

But that's not really my problem or why I created the thread. He was fired on the mere accusation. The fact that he was later exonerated cannot change that. That is extremely serious and bad. And has become an intrinsic part of #MeToo and why I just want to see the movement die now. Mob justice isn't justice at all.

And yeah, I do know what mentoring is. Maybe you just need to take your man-goggles off and read what I write. Because it does not take place only in upper echelons of workplaces. Sorry to burst your bubble.

That is true. But is what I'm talking about. Unless women penetrate the upper levels of industry gender equality won't happen. The stuff further down the pyramid is more frosting on the cake. If you fix the top the rest will magically get sorted.

He told an applicant that she would get the job if she slept with him.

That’s grounds for being fired, without the other accusations and without the fact that she was 14 years old!

That you are excising this as a joke speaks volumes about your own character and the need for the #MeToo movement and effective legislation as well as wholesale reforms and changes in society and workplace culture.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's an excuse to continue to do things the same way they've always been done: boys will be boys and men will only mentor men and maintain the status quo.

Although I find it difficult to still refer to adult males as men if they lack the moral fiber, courage and self control to be alone in a room with a woman.

Look at your own reaction to such allegations--you automatically believe the woman even when there's obvious reason not to. In this day and age for a high-level man to be alone in a room with a lower-level woman is risking their career. Even without any allegations they may be advised to quit it--the company doesn't want the risk.

 

[Toni]

It's an excuse to continue to do things the same way they've always been done: boys will be boys and men will only mentor men and maintain the status quo.

Although I find it difficult to still refer to adult males as men if they lack the moral fiber, courage and self control to be alone in a room with a woman.

Look at your own reaction to such allegations--you automatically believe the woman even when there's obvious reason not to. In this day and age for a high-level man to be alone in a room with a lower-level woman is risking their career. Even without any allegations they may be advised to quit it--the company doesn't want the risk.

Can you show where I automatically believe the woman?

 

[DrZoidberg]

If you fix the top the rest will magically get sorted.

Exactly. It's like how racism got sorted out in America when Obama became President.

Ha ha. Defence.. He was only half black. Did you fall for it?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Again... stop fantasizing about what you think this thread should be about. If you want to discuss that... why don't you make your own thread? Quit trying to derail it.

If these powerful men haven't raped anyone, then they have nothing to fear from honest non-accusations. But they do have a reason to fear false accusations. Which explains why it's the false accusations they're worried about.

As soon as a new #MeToo accusation has surfaced the reaction from the public is swift and damning. Who of the accused hasn't been impacted? Kevin Spacey was kicked off House of Cards instantly. Harvey Weinstein, while guilty, was impacted immediately. Way before any guilty verdict had come in. Sometimes the lynch mob gets the right guy, but do you really want to bet your life on the smarts of a mob? In Sweden the most famous #MeToo accused (Fredrik Virtanen) turned out to be complete bullshit and just the tip of a long harmasserent campaign from one journalist. He still can't get a job. Even a year after being exonerated. There was even a documentary on TV about it. But nobody cared. He's still damaged goods. That's going to be top of mind for the Swedish CEO's I'm talking about.

The problem is that for #MeToo due process is completely ignored. Anybody accused is instantly assumed guilty. If a woman does want to take down a man she has a relation to it's easy today. That's all these powerful men need to know. And they're acting on that knowledge. Don't forget that if you are powerful you will by necessity make a lot of enemies. It comes with the job. They have every reason to be paranoid.



You did try to woman-splain to me about how mentoring is done and that didn't go so well. That's what I'm basing the statement on.

Although I find it difficult to still refer to adult males as men if they lack the moral fiber, courage and self control to be alone in a room with a woman.

What has that got to do with it? Seriously? WTF are you talking about? Please explain how these last two sentences is relevant to:

1) ...the article.
2) ...anything I've said so far.

You are aware that a woman might say she has felt threatened by a man even when she hasn't been?

Aside from your claims, where is the evidence that women are fabricating sexual assaults? The individuals you pointed out were accused by multiple women. It boggles the mind that any corporation would remove a valued journalist or CEO because of trumped up allegations. It is especially interesting that is your claim with regards to the journalist--whose co-worker's jobs it is to discover the truth and report it. And that you seem to believe the fact that police did not pursue charges means that nothing happened, or that if it was short of actual forcible rape that it wasn't out of bounds of normal workplace behavior.

I am aware that perceptions matter and one individual might find something offensive where no offense was intended. I am aware that some men find nothing wrong with patting women's asses at work, shoving their tongues down their throats, etc. I'm aware that some women are offended for little reason. I'm aware that some men give great reason for offense and deny that they did anything wrong.

Maybe you could point out where I or anybody else said that evidence does not matter.

Stop dodging. Just answer the question? It annoys me that you keep on trying to derail this thread. So you could at least show me the courtesy of answering this direct question? WTF has your two statments got to do with this thread or the article? How are they relevant?

Let's start with your OP. I've bolded things to help you:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost

This shouldn't surprise anybody. This is what happens when the digital mob lynches mens careers based on nothing but unsubstantiated accusations.

It took about a week of #MeToo before I realised that it'll do more damage to women's rights and gender equality than helping it. I think women will increasingly be locked out of the early stepping stones of careers. Eventually women will be gone completely from any management positions in industry.

And I think this is where it's inevitably heading because there's no way to go back to the way it was.

Here are some quotes from the article you posted, apparently without really reading or understanding:

“Some men have voiced concerns to me that a false accusation is what they fear,” said Zweig, the lawyer. “These men fear what they cannot control.”

Nowhere in the article is there any evidence presented of false accusations. Just a lot about men who are scared that their behavior might have consequences.

That's a twisting if the truth and then some. You seem unwilling to have an adult conversation about this. I gave you a second chance and you blew it.

Also from your article:

There are as many or more men who are responding in quite different ways. One, an investment adviser who manages about 100 employees, said he briefly reconsidered having one-on-one meetings with junior women. He thought about leaving his office door open, or inviting a third person into the room.

Finally, he landed on the solution: “Just try not to be an asshole.”

That’s pretty much the bottom line, said Ron Biscardi, chief executive officer of Context Capital Partners. “It’s really not that hard.”

Why would men put up with that? I wouldn't.

Despite your claims that in Sweden, an innocent prominent journalist was forced out--it turns out there were MANY claims against him.

I think you are reading things--or not reading them--through your own special lens.

There were many accusations of him being a drunk asshole to women when out. Which he has admitted to. But hardly a reason for outrage, public condemnation or any sanction... what so ever. That was more just moral indignation and outrage.

Only two accusations were serious. One was the rape allegation. Which was thrown out of court in 2014 because it was a frivolous accusation. There's a longer story here. I know this case in great detail. It just screams of bullshit. There's many fucked up details about it.

The other one was an e-mail he sent to a 14 year old who had applied for an internship. He said she'd get the job if she slept with him. He didn't know she was 14 or anything about her. My guess is a drunken attempt at humour. Which I think was his defence. But either way, obviously not a serious question.

But that's not really my problem or why I created the thread. He was fired on the mere accusation. The fact that he was later exonerated cannot change that. That is extremely serious and bad. And has become an intrinsic part of #MeToo and why I just want to see the movement die now. Mob justice isn't justice at all.

And yeah, I do know what mentoring is. Maybe you just need to take your man-goggles off and read what I write. Because it does not take place only in upper echelons of workplaces. Sorry to burst your bubble.

That is true. But is what I'm talking about. Unless women penetrate the upper levels of industry gender equality won't happen. The stuff further down the pyramid is more frosting on the cake. If you fix the top the rest will magically get sorted.

He told an applicant that she would get the job if she slept with him.

That’s grounds for being fired, without the other accusations and without the fact that she was 14 years old!

That you are excising this as a joke speaks volumes about your own character and the need for the #MeToo movement and effective legislation as well as wholesale reforms and changes in society and workplace culture.

Jesus fucking Christ your image of women is as pathetic helpless damsels in distress. I think women are a lot tougher than you give them credit for.

His e-mail to the 14-year old went nowhere. It only surfaced after journalists were scowering Sweden for dirt. At no point did she entertain the thought of sleeping with him nor answered his e-mail. What's the problem? It was nothing.

If women are as pathetic as you make them out to be why would we trust them to be responsible for stuff? You make it sound like the only thing women are good for is staying in the kitchen.

 

[RavenSky]

Unfortunately, men who use #MeToo as an excuse not to mentor a percentage of their employees in a fair and equal manner are harming those women. If the men are genuinely worried about false accusations , they could very easily avoid it while still mentoring.

It's not an excuse, but rather an evaluation that the risk isn't worth it. There isn't a way to ensure there will be no false accusations.

It's an excuse

 

[RavenSky]

But the motivations are essentially identical. The fact that Uber drives aren't really impacted and female workers are doesn't change what's leading to the behaviour. These people are worried about finding themselves in a bad situation which they don't feel they'd be able to deal with and therefore take steps to avoid this situation.

Again, I agree; but it is the difference between the two situations that matters. Your wife and her friends are not harming the 99.99% of Uber drivers who are not dangerous with their precautions in light of the .01%.

Unfortunately, men who use #MeToo as an excuse not to mentor a percentage of their employees in a fair and equal manner are harming those women. If the men are genuinely worried about false accusations , they could very easily avoid it while still mentoring.

But the difference is in the results to others, not in the perception of risk to themselves and that's what's important in this particular context. They could mentor a female employee and (think that they) expose themselves to these additional risks or they could mentor a male employee and not do so and they don't have some kind of social obligation to expose themselves to (what they feel is) unnecessary risk. If this mentoring is a valuable career tool, then this perception of risk brought about by the #MeToo movement creates a barrier in the careers of the women affected.

Except that there is no actual evidence that #MeToo has, in fact, created any such barrier. What we have is the claims of "many" out of 30 "senior executives" interviewed... which is why I think it is simply an excuse by specific men that prefer the 'old boys club' and think blaming #MeToo is a great way of blaming women... another version of blaming the victims.

Also from the article:

There’s a danger, too, for companies that fail to squash the isolating backlash and don’t take steps to have top managers be open about the issue and make it safe for everyone to discuss it, said Stephen Zweig, an employment attorney with FordHarrison.

“If men avoid working or traveling with women alone, or stop mentoring women for fear of being accused of sexual harassment,” he said, “those men are going to back out of a sexual harassment complaint and right into a sex discrimination complaint.”

On Wall Street as elsewhere, reactions to #MeToo can smack of paranoia, particularly given the industry’s history of protecting its biggest revenue generators.

“Some men have voiced concerns to me that a false accusation is what they fear,” said Zweig, the lawyer. “These men fear what they cannot control.”

There are as many or more men who are responding in quite different ways.

Finally, he landed on the solution: “Just try not to be an asshole.”

In other words... what Toni said

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Plus, if a pattern emerges of mentoring being provided on a gender basis, there'll be trouble of a different kind, cases being taken for sex-discrimination.

exactly

 

[Toni]

Jesus fucking Christ your image of women is as pathetic helpless damsels in distress. I think women are a lot tougher than you give them credit for.

His e-mail to the 14-year old went nowhere. It only surfaced after journalists were scowering Sweden for dirt. At no point did she entertain the thought of sleeping with him nor answered his e-mail. What's the problem? It was nothing.

If women are as pathetic as you make them out to be why would we trust them to be responsible for stuff? You make it sound like the only thing women are good for is staying in the kitchen.

Really? It's OK to tell a 14 year old that if she wants a job, she has to sleep with you? Or any woman? Really? I thought that Scandinavia was all liberal. That sounds like something straight out of the 1950's in the Ozarks.

The fact that you don't understand why this is inappropriate explains exactly why women are up in arms with #MeToo.

Women aren't the ones being pathetic here. It's men who think that being men allows them to treat all females as sexually available to them.

 

[RavenSky]

I thought this study was appropriate for this discussion:

In Denmark, where a 2012 survey found 80% of women had experienced some form of sexual harassment since the age of 15, the average answer among men was 31%.

In the Netherlands – where a prominent conductor was recently fired due to allegations of sexual harassment – 73% of women reported being affected yet the average answer among men was 38%.

In the US, where a 2018 poll found that 81% of women had experienced sexual harassment at some point in their lives, American men’s average answer was 44%.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...vel-of-sexual-harassment-against-women-survey

 

[J842P]

Eh, yeah, this may have an effect on the older dinosaurs in finance, and it may be bad in the short-to-medium term in those particular sectors. Such is the way of the world. But I think in the not-so-long term it will be fine.

Anyway, I don't think finance is going to stop being a boy's club any time soon, regardless of MeToo.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Unfortunately, men who use #MeToo as an excuse not to mentor a percentage of their employees in a fair and equal manner are harming those women. If the men are genuinely worried about false accusations , they could very easily avoid it while still mentoring.

It's not an excuse, but rather an evaluation that the risk isn't worth it. There isn't a way to ensure there will be no false accusations.

It's an excuse

All it takes is one bad apple and your career is over. There's no real defense.

 

[Toni]

It's an excuse

All it takes is one bad apple and your career is over. There's no real defense.

Kind of like if there’s one bad apple, you can find yourself backed into a supply closet by your lecherous boss—who will fire you for resisting, much less complain. I’m not sure one can compare losing your job with being sexually assaulted but both are bad.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Jesus fucking Christ your image of women is as pathetic helpless damsels in distress. I think women are a lot tougher than you give them credit for.

His e-mail to the 14-year old went nowhere. It only surfaced after journalists were scowering Sweden for dirt. At no point did she entertain the thought of sleeping with him nor answered his e-mail. What's the problem? It was nothing.

If women are as pathetic as you make them out to be why would we trust them to be responsible for stuff? You make it sound like the only thing women are good for is staying in the kitchen.

Really? It's OK to tell a 14 year old that if she wants a job, she has to sleep with you? Or any woman? Really? I thought that Scandinavia was all liberal. That sounds like something straight out of the 1950's in the Ozarks.

Of course that is not ok. But it's such a gross overstep that it should be obvious to everybody, even a 14 year old, that it wasn't a serious suggestion. It's certainly nothing to destroy a man's entire career over. It's something he should feel shame about but then be allowed to get on with it.

The image of Sweden as a den of decadence and loose morals is undeserved. Sweden is a highly moralistic country. It's just very feminist friendly and progressive. There's a difference.

The fact that you don't understand why this is inappropriate explains exactly why women are up in arms with #MeToo.

I never said it wasn't inappropriate nor shouldn't lead to a sanction. He should be punished for it. But is it harsh enough to destroy a man's entire career over? The guy hasn't had a job in over a year. He's got two children. How about some restraint here?

This is what you are doing now:
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/eitheror.html

Just stop it. It comes across as hysterical.

 

[Toni]

Just stop it. It comes across as hysterical.

Yes, you do.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's an excuse

All it takes is one bad apple and your career is over. There's no real defense.

Kind of like if there’s one bad apple, you can find yourself backed into a supply closet by your lecherous boss—who will fire you for resisting, much less complain. I’m not sure one can compare losing your job with being sexually assaulted but both are bad.

1) Note that I said "career", not "job".

2) The actions of the bad boss in your example are clearly illegal--if you're carrying a recording device they're in deep doo-doo. The actions of the bad apple bring no repercussions.

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Of course that is not ok. But it's such a gross overstep that it should be obvious to everybody, even a 14 year old, that it wasn't a serious suggestion. It's certainly nothing to destroy a man's entire career over. It's something he should feel shame about but then be allowed to get on with it.

Yeah. I can't remember the exact context but it was something between my father and a publisher in which the publisher was listing a price as your firstborn. People sometimes give over-the-top prices as a joke.