The glass ceiling is now made of concrete.

[Toni]

Kind of like if there’s one bad apple, you can find yourself backed into a supply closet by your lecherous boss—who will fire you for resisting, much less complain. I’m not sure one can compare losing your job with being sexually assaulted but both are bad.

1) Note that I said "career", not "job".

So lolsing your career is worse than being sexually assaulted?

2) The actions of the bad boss in your example are clearly illegal--if you're carrying a recording device they're in deep doo-doo. The actions of the bad apple bring no repercussions.

Few employees carry recording devices in anticipation of being sexually assaulted by their boss or coworker. Nor should they have to. People should know how to treat everyone with courtesy and respect. People should be able to expect courtesy and respect on the job.

Of course that is not ok. But it's such a gross overstep that it should be obvious to everybody, even a 14 year old, that it wasn't a serious suggestion. It's certainly nothing to destroy a man's entire career over. It's something he should feel shame about but then be allowed to get on with it.

Yeah. I can't remember the exact context but it was something between my father and a publisher in which the publisher was listing a price as your firstborn. People sometimes give over-the-top prices as a joke.

No one actually expects to be forced to give up their first born child.

Plenty of people do expect 14 year old girls to sleep with older men who would be their bosses. In the case of the person in Dr. Z’s example, there are enough allegations that make his demand for sex from a 14 year old applicant to be as plausuble as such demands would be illegal and reprehensible. Certainly the girl’s parents would have taken such demands seriously. So would police. So would employers. So would any decent human being.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Plenty of people do expect 14 year old girls to sleep with older men who would be their bosses.

.

No, they don't. It's taboo in every culture. 14 year olds are universally seen as children. In the West it's an extremely strong taboo. It's pretty clear that you are far removed from reality on this.

In the case of the person in Dr. Z’s example, there are enough allegations that make his demand for sex from a 14 year old applicant to be as plausuble as such demands would be illegal and reprehensible. Certainly the girl’s parents would have taken such demands seriously. So would police. So would employers. So would any decent human being.

Lol. Had no idea how old she was. It was just a random e-mail. 14 year olds don't usually apply for high status jobs at the countries biggest tabloid. Just getting an internship there is something you get after years of hard work in lesser publications. So he had no reason to think she was 14. It was literally the top most prestigious journalism internship in Sweden.

He would never give some random girl that job. So the idea that he entertained the idea of actually sleeping with her is preposterous. It would also be incredibly illegal. In Sweden a boss isn't allowed to have any sexual contact with employees, except in a couple of very specific circumstances, like them being married. The laws are extremely harsh. Just the fact that he sent her the e-mail would make it legally impossible to go through with the sex.

He said he was drunk when he sent it. So I'm guessing it was a failed attempt at humour.

 

[Toni]

I really don’t have time for your shit. Please go back and see your post#44 in this thread where YOU said she was 14.

It’s not my problem if you write things that are not true.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I really don’t have time for your shit. Please go back and see your post#44 in this thread where YOU said she was 14.

It’s not my problem if you write things that are not true.

She was 14. But he didn't know that. I've never said he knew her age. He knew nothing about her other than that she was female and liked writing.

What makes it more serious was that he e-mailed her on the company e-mail so was acting in the name of the company, ie Sweden's biggest tabloid, who routinely rip people apart for doing exactly that. So it was supremely unprofessional.

But is it really unforgivable?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So lolsing your career is worse than being sexually assaulted?

You presented the options as be assaulted or lose their job. I'm saying that losing one's career is worse than losing one's job.

2) The actions of the bad boss in your example are clearly illegal--if you're carrying a recording device they're in deep doo-doo. The actions of the bad apple bring no repercussions.

Few employees carry recording devices in anticipation of being sexually assaulted by their boss or coworker. Nor should they have to. People should know how to treat everyone with courtesy and respect. People should be able to expect courtesy and respect on the job.

Few?? Try almost all. These days a smartphone with a recorder app. And while they probably aren't equipped the first time there's no reason not to be equipped the second if they are in a one-party state.

Plenty of people do expect 14 year old girls to sleep with older men who would be their bosses. In the case of the person in Dr. Z’s example, there are enough allegations that make his demand for sex from a 14 year old applicant to be as plausuble as such demands would be illegal and reprehensible. Certainly the girl’s parents would have taken such demands seriously. So would police. So would employers. So would any decent human being.

14 year olds?! Most places that is statutory rape. I would certainly consider it an over-the-top type thing and thus a joke.

 

[Toni]

You presented the options as be assaulted or lose their job. I'm saying that losing one's career is worse than losing one's job.

Few employees carry recording devices in anticipation of being sexually assaulted by their boss or coworker. Nor should they have to. People should know how to treat everyone with courtesy and respect. People should be able to expect courtesy and respect on the job.

Few?? Try almost all. These days a smartphone with a recorder app. And while they probably aren't equipped the first time there's no reason not to be equipped the second if they are in a one-party state.

Plenty of people do expect 14 year old girls to sleep with older men who would be their bosses. In the case of the person in Dr. Z’s example, there are enough allegations that make his demand for sex from a 14 year old applicant to be as plausuble as such demands would be illegal and reprehensible. Certainly the girl’s parents would have taken such demands seriously. So would police. So would employers. So would any decent human being.

14 year olds?! Most places that is statutory rape. I would certainly consider it an over-the-top type thing and thus a joke.

In my workplace, we could not carry cell phones in the lab.

You’ve never been a 14 year old girl or a parent. I assure you that no 14 year old thinks some old man telling her she has to have sexual with homos a joke.nor would her parents or police. Frankly I done even believe that is your position. Or that it would be your position of the guy we’re black and the girl white.

 

[DrZoidberg]

You presented the options as be assaulted or lose their job. I'm saying that losing one's career is worse than losing one's job.



Few?? Try almost all. These days a smartphone with a recorder app. And while they probably aren't equipped the first time there's no reason not to be equipped the second if they are in a one-party state.



14 year olds?! Most places that is statutory rape. I would certainly consider it an over-the-top type thing and thus a joke.

In my workplace, we could not carry cell phones in the lab.

You’ve never been a 14 year old girl or a parent. I assure you that no 14 year old thinks some old man telling her she has to have sexual with homos a joke.nor would her parents or police. Frankly I done even believe that is your position. Or that it would be your position of the guy we’re black and the girl white.

Your style of discussing is so incredibly dishonest. Why can't you have an honest discussion like normal people? When did I say that the girl thought it was a joke? And since when did I become a racist?

I don't know why he sent the e-mail. But it seems pretty clear it wasn't a genuine request. The man was notorious for sleeping around a lot with willing women. He was a popular guy. He had no reason to take this massive risk to maybe have sex with a girl he knew nothing about. It makes no sense. I think it was more likely an exceptionally crude way of telling someone to fuck off and not bother him again. That's more likely. Or a joke. Or perhaps sent to the wrong person? Maybe he thought he was answering someone else's e-mail? There's loads of more plausible explanations than him genuinely wanting to have sex with the girl.

Also... The state prosecutor didn't bother to press charges. And they're notorious for taking text messages seriously. Not even them thought it would stick in court.

 

[Toni]

You presented the options as be assaulted or lose their job. I'm saying that losing one's career is worse than losing one's job.



Few?? Try almost all. These days a smartphone with a recorder app. And while they probably aren't equipped the first time there's no reason not to be equipped the second if they are in a one-party state.



14 year olds?! Most places that is statutory rape. I would certainly consider it an over-the-top type thing and thus a joke.

In my workplace, we could not carry cell phones in the lab.

You’ve never been a 14 year old girl or a parent. I assure you that no 14 year old thinks some old man telling her she has to have sexual with homos a joke.nor would her parents or police. Frankly I done even believe that is your position. Or that it would be your position of the guy we’re black and the girl white.

Your style of discussing is so incredibly dishonest. Why can't you have an honest discussion like normal people? When did I say that the girl thought it was a joke? And since when did I become a racist?

I don't know why he sent the e-mail. But it seems pretty clear it wasn't a genuine request. The man was notorious for sleeping around a lot with willing women. He was a popular guy. He had no reason to take this massive risk to maybe have sex with a girl he knew nothing about. It makes no sense. I think it was more likely an exceptionally crude way of telling someone to fuck off and not bother him again. That's more likely. Or a joke. Or perhaps sent to the wrong person? Maybe he thought he was answering someone else's e-mail? There's loads of more plausible explanations than him genuinely wanting to have sex with the girl.

Also... The state prosecutor didn't bother to press charges. And they're notorious for taking text messages seriously. Not even them thought it would stick in court.

1. I wasn’t responding to you in the post you quoted.
2. I’m not the one being dishonest.
3. You keep attempting to cast the circumstances of events YOU presented as somehow making the circumstances acceptable. You are failing miserably and showing yourself to be clueless and dishonest.

None of of this is surprising in the least.

 

[Rhea]

Finally, he landed on the solution: “Just try not to be an asshole.”

Why would men put up with that? I wouldn't.

Um?

The other one was an e-mail he sent to a 14 year old who had applied for an internship. He said she'd get the job if she slept with him. He didn't know she was 14 or anything about her. My guess is a drunken attempt at humour. Which I think was his defence. But either way, obviously not a serious question.

You think it should be without consequence to tell ANY applicant, whether 14yo or not that they can get the job if they sleep with you?

I’d fire that person for that. That does not belong in a workplace, it will undermine morale and trust and create a poor work result. That man is costing the company money in lost productivity. Out he goes. And that is not “mere accusation.” It’s clear he did something worthy of being fired. The fact that he ALSO did more things bad just makes the employer more certain.

It is not a joke, it is not acceptable it is a firing offense, it is unequivocally wrong to make such a "joke" and that he did it on the company record is reason enough for him to take his firing like an adult and not call the whaaaambulance. He fucked up big time, he was wrong.

And he's your key example? Men like him are so scared for their reputations?
He should just try to not be an asshole and he'd have nothing to worry about.
Maybe he should smile more.

2) The actions of the bad boss in your example are clearly illegal--if you're carrying a recording device they're in deep doo-doo. The actions of the bad apple bring no repercussions.

You are aware that in many states it is not legal to record and so the evidence would get thrown out and the men would all say, “look another false accusation!” When you see how many pieces of evidence are not used, are thrown out, are not tested, and you think there’s some magic that this time the evidence will see justice done? How magical.

The truth is that #metoo is present because valid accusations have been undermined, dismissed and mocked for centuries.
And none of you ever cared about it until, oh my goodness! A man might face a wee problem!

 

[DrZoidberg]

You think it should be without consequence to tell ANY applicant, whether 14yo or not that they can get the job if they sleep with you?

I’d fire that person for that. That does not belong in a workplace, it will undermine morale and trust and create a poor work result. That man is costing the company money in lost productivity. Out he goes. And that is not “mere accusation.” It’s clear he did something worthy of being fired. The fact that he ALSO did more things bad just makes the employer more certain.

It is not a joke, it is not acceptable it is a firing offense, it is unequivocally wrong to make such a "joke" and that he did it on the company record is reason enough for him to take his firing like an adult and not call the whaaaambulance. He fucked up big time, he was wrong.

He didn't also do more bad things. This is the only thing he actually did that was actually bad. All the rest was bullshit accusations. But the employer acted as if all accusations were serious and genuine. Which is my point and the reason I brought him up.

Why does everybody here seem to see this as black or white? I never said he's innocent and doesn't deserve punishment. I agree that it is a firing offence. But then again, the guy had worked there for 20 years and it was his first and only occurrence of it. There's many other forms of punishments than destroying his career.

The fact remains that no employer in Sweden dares hire him now. The career he's worked on all his adult life is over. Seemingly permanent.

edit: Here's another theory. Perhaps the girl in the application stressed how she was pretty, friendly and nice rather than just submitting examples of writing. Which is what is important for a writing job. And he got annoyed and the proposition was sarcasm. I haven't actually seen the e-mail. It has not been released. Neither the application, the name of the 14 year old girl or anything about this.

All we know is that the prosecutor decided against pressing charges. Propositioning 14 year olds for sex is illegal in Sweden. So the police didn't think this was enough. Which... if we are to follow due process means that we also should ignore this.

And he's your key example? Men like him are so scared for their reputations?
He should just try to not be an asshole and he'd have nothing to worry about.
Maybe he should smile more.

I don't think it's an unfounded fear. It's a real threat and something powerful men should worry about. It's like going to a casino and choosing between regular roulette and Russian roulette. Why even bother risking your life? And that is what this is about. These are powerful and ambitious careerists. Their jobs are important to them. It's most likely the most important thing in the world to them. Which is why they're powerful. You're asking them to risk that unnecessarily. Again... Why would they?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

2) The actions of the bad boss in your example are clearly illegal--if you're carrying a recording device they're in deep doo-doo. The actions of the bad apple bring no repercussions.

You are aware that in many states it is not legal to record and so the evidence would get thrown out and the men would all say, “look another false accusation!” When you see how many pieces of evidence are not used, are thrown out, are not tested, and you think there’s some magic that this time the evidence will see justice done? How magical.

The truth is that #metoo is present because valid accusations have been undermined, dismissed and mocked for centuries.
And none of you ever cared about it until, oh my goodness! A man might face a wee problem!

Most of the US is one-party.

If you live in a two-party state pester your legislators to fix that.

 

[bigfield]

These days a smartphone with a recorder app. And while they probably aren't equipped the first time there's no reason not to be equipped the second if they are in a one-party state.

If you live in a two-party state pester your legislators to fix that.

Someone writes this stuff thinking it is useful advice.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Lawrence Krauss has been fired from his university position. Based on nothing but circumstantial evidence. Some of it is just dumb. Like him suggestion birth control instead of one of his staff going on maternity leave. Ehe... that's an obvious joke. Whether you think it's funny or not is beside the point. If that's one of the main accusations they've got nothing. The whole thing just stinks. None of the allegations are particularly serious IMHO. Even the worst offences warrant nothing more than a stern talking to... if true. Which we don't know if it is. He's one of the world's top scientist. Clearly not fired for professional reasons. If this guy can get fired like this then nobody is safe.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science...exual-misconduct-me-too-arizona-state/573844/

https://medium.com/@jakubferencik/denying-sexual-allegations-3478a8417d1f

I hope #MeToo dies soon. I think the damages to the advances in gender equality will be deep and take decades to heal. Assuming #MeToo dies soon. If not developments will be going backwards for a long time. But perhaps women will enjoy going back to being housewives again.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Lawrence Krauss has been fired from his university position. Based on nothing but circumstantial evidence. Some of it is just dumb. Like him suggestion birth control instead of one of his staff going on maternity leave. Ehe... that's an obvious joke. Whether you think it's funny or not is beside the point. If that's one of the main accusations they've got nothing. The whole thing just stinks. None of the allegations are particularly serious IMHO. Even the worst offences warrant nothing more than a stern talking to... if true. Which we don't know if it is. He's one of the world's top scientist. Clearly not fired for professional reasons. If this guy can get fired like this then nobody is safe.

No, if you make jokes like that in the office, you kind of deserve to be fired, even if it was meant in humour. That's horrifically demeaning. It's like if you say to a black guy "Hey, good work Frank, but boy do you charge a lot. It would be nice if we lived in the Confederacy so we could have you working for free". It doesn't matter what sort of jest you intended when making the statement, if Frank complains about it the consequences are your own damn fault and you're being the snowflake for whining about the justifiable results of your actions - it's not everyone else that's being a snowflake for having an issue with your inappropriate workplace behaviour.

It also doesn't matter how fucking good you are at your job or how important you think you are. Separate rules and standards for the elites aren't the proper way to set things up.

It's the same with your previous "defense" about the guy who sent some lady an email saying she'd get the job if she slept with him. That's an insta-fire. No ifs, ands or buts. Given the number of very real times where sexual services have been demanded in exchange for jobs and promotions, the response of "Hey, it was just a joke" barely qualifies as a response, let alone a defense. If someone is the type of person who would make that comment in a business setting, that is not the type of person who belongs in a business setting.

I hope #MeToo dies soon. I think the damages to the advances in gender equality will be deep and take decades to heal. Assuming #MeToo dies soon. If not developments will be going backwards for a long time. But perhaps women will enjoy going back to being housewives again.

#MeToo has done vastly more good than harm and having all of this bullshit which happens out in the open is far better than keeping it hidden and under wraps. The feelings about what women have had to keep quiet and put up with for generations are still very raw and this does lead to some overreactions which we all need to learn how to temper and we need to remember as a society that accused people should always be given the benefit of the doubt until such a time that the evidence shows they don't deserve it. That's not a reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater, though.

 

[thebeave]

Lawrence Krauss has been fired from his university position. Based on nothing but circumstantial evidence. Some of it is just dumb. Like him suggestion birth control instead of one of his staff going on maternity leave. Ehe... that's an obvious joke. Whether you think it's funny or not is beside the point. If that's one of the main accusations they've got nothing. The whole thing just stinks. None of the allegations are particularly serious IMHO. Even the worst offences warrant nothing more than a stern talking to... if true. Which we don't know if it is. He's one of the world's top scientist. Clearly not fired for professional reasons. If this guy can get fired like this then nobody is safe.

No, if you make jokes like that in the office, you kind of deserve to be fired, even if it was meant in humour. That's horrifically demeaning. It's like if you say to a black guy "Hey, good work Frank, but boy do you charge a lot. It would be nice if we lived in the Confederacy so we could have you working for free". It doesn't matter what sort of jest you intended when making the statement, if Frank complains about it the consequences are your own damn fault and you're being the snowflake for whining about the justifiable results of your actions - it's not everyone else that's being a snowflake for having an issue with your inappropriate workplace behaviour.

It also doesn't matter how fucking good you are at your job or how important you think you are. Separate rules and standards for the elites aren't the proper way to set things up.

It's the same with your previous "defense" about the guy who sent some lady an email saying she'd get the job if she slept with him. That's an insta-fire. No ifs, ands or buts. Given the number of very real times where sexual services have been demanded in exchange for jobs and promotions, the response of "Hey, it was just a joke" barely qualifies as a response, let alone a defense. If someone is the type of person who would make that comment in a business setting, that is not the type of person who belongs in a business setting.

I hope #MeToo dies soon. I think the damages to the advances in gender equality will be deep and take decades to heal. Assuming #MeToo dies soon. If not developments will be going backwards for a long time. But perhaps women will enjoy going back to being housewives again.

#MeToo has done vastly more good than harm and having all of this bullshit which happens out in the open is far better than keeping it hidden and under wraps. The feelings about what women have had to keep quiet and put up with for generations are still very raw and this does lead to some overreactions which we all need to learn how to temper and we need to remember as a society that accused people should always be given the benefit of the doubt until such a time that the evidence shows they don't deserve it. That's not a reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater, though.

Oddly enough, women themselves have come to the opposite conclusion.

https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?16431-MeToo-backlash

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Oddly enough, women themselves have come to the opposite conclusion.

https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?16431-MeToo-backlash

That's not all that odd. The reason for that is because, as surprising as it may sound, women are actually people. They manage to have diverse sets of opinions about diverse sets of topics just like men do.

Now, I would agree that each individual case of a false accusation is worse than each individual case of sexual harassment, but given that the actual number of cases of sexual harassment vastly dwarfs the actual number of cases of false accusations, the sexual harassment is the worse issue as a whole.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Lawrence Krauss has been fired from his university position. Based on nothing but circumstantial evidence. Some of it is just dumb. Like him suggestion birth control instead of one of his staff going on maternity leave. Ehe... that's an obvious joke. Whether you think it's funny or not is beside the point. If that's one of the main accusations they've got nothing. The whole thing just stinks. None of the allegations are particularly serious IMHO. Even the worst offences warrant nothing more than a stern talking to... if true. Which we don't know if it is. He's one of the world's top scientist. Clearly not fired for professional reasons. If this guy can get fired like this then nobody is safe.

No, if you make jokes like that in the office, you kind of deserve to be fired, even if it was meant in humour. That's horrifically demeaning. It's like if you say to a black guy "Hey, good work Frank, but boy do you charge a lot. It would be nice if we lived in the Confederacy so we could have you working for free". It doesn't matter what sort of jest you intended when making the statement, if Frank complains about it the consequences are your own damn fault and you're being the snowflake for whining about the justifiable results of your actions - it's not everyone else that's being a snowflake for having an issue with your inappropriate workplace behaviour.

It also doesn't matter how fucking good you are at your job or how important you think you are. Separate rules and standards for the elites aren't the proper way to set things up.

It's the same with your previous "defense" about the guy who sent some lady an email saying she'd get the job if she slept with him. That's an insta-fire. No ifs, ands or buts. Given the number of very real times where sexual services have been demanded in exchange for jobs and promotions, the response of "Hey, it was just a joke" barely qualifies as a response, let alone a defense. If someone is the type of person who would make that comment in a business setting, that is not the type of person who belongs in a business setting.

I don't agree. A workplace has to be tolerant when it comes to humour. Or it will suck to work there. Taboo subjects or just saying horriffic things is often extremely funny. If a joke doesn't land then apologise. It shouldn't be a big deal.

We also don't know if he did say it. He denies it. You've just assumed guilt automatically. Which is what my critique is about. You've just demonstrated that I'm correct.

I hope #MeToo dies soon. I think the damages to the advances in gender equality will be deep and take decades to heal. Assuming #MeToo dies soon. If not developments will be going backwards for a long time. But perhaps women will enjoy going back to being housewives again.

#MeToo has done vastly more good than harm and having all of this bullshit which happens out in the open is far better than keeping it hidden and under wraps. The feelings about what women have had to keep quiet and put up with for generations are still very raw and this does lead to some overreactions which we all need to learn how to temper and we need to remember as a society that accused people should always be given the benefit of the doubt until such a time that the evidence shows they don't deserve it. That's not a reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater, though.

You started with saying you are for MeToo but ended with being against it. Make up your mind?

MeToo proved to be two things.

1) women dared speak up publicly about sexual assault.
2) death of due process and instant punishment if the accused.

The first is great. The other is a disaster. You're pretending like both aren't intrinsic to what MeToo has become. They're right now joined at the hip. I can't see any hope of due process returning. The post MeToo world has become a world of mob justice.

People respond to incentives. Women will start using this as a weapon. If they aren't already. There's already a big market for professional victim journalism. That doesn't bode well for a world where fake news is big money.

If MeToo is allowed to continue I can't see how it can end well for anybody. But I do think it will end. Either we get a conservative reaction and we just stop believing women's accusations again and domestic violence will be kosher again or women are removed from the work place. Right now those are the only two scenarios I find plausible. Because the MeToo proponents seem unwilling to understand the beast they have released or it's consequences.

France's Reign of Terror springs to mind.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I don't agree. A workplace has to be tolerant when it comes to humour. Or it will suck to work there. Taboo subjects or just saying horriffic things is often extremely funny. If a joke doesn't land then apologise. It shouldn't be a big deal.

We also don't know if he did say it. He denies it. You've just assumed guilt automatically. Which is what my critique is about. You've just demonstrated that I'm correct.

OK, my bad. I had read the discussion as he had admitted to doing it. If he hadn't then it's an unproven allegation and worthless.

Workplaces also suck when employees have to put up with racist and sexist bullshit from their co-workers. Standards of behaviour are important.

I hope #MeToo dies soon. I think the damages to the advances in gender equality will be deep and take decades to heal. Assuming #MeToo dies soon. If not developments will be going backwards for a long time. But perhaps women will enjoy going back to being housewives again.

#MeToo has done vastly more good than harm and having all of this bullshit which happens out in the open is far better than keeping it hidden and under wraps. The feelings about what women have had to keep quiet and put up with for generations are still very raw and this does lead to some overreactions which we all need to learn how to temper and we need to remember as a society that accused people should always be given the benefit of the doubt until such a time that the evidence shows they don't deserve it. That's not a reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater, though.

You started with saying you are for MeToo but ended with being against it. Make up your mind?

I'm not sure what kind of strange world you live in where one needs to be either for or against something and cannot be for parts of it and against other parts. Since I don't live in such a world, I can't relate to or comment on to your experiences in it.

MeToo proved to be two things.

1) women dared speak up publicly about sexual assault.
2) death of due process and instant punishment if the accused.

The first is great. The other is a disaster. You're pretending like both aren't intrinsic to what MeToo has become. They're right now joined at the hip. I can't see any hope of due process returning. The post MeToo world has become a world of mob justice.

People respond to incentives. Women will start using this as a weapon. If they aren't already. There's already a big market for professional victim journalism. That doesn't bode well for a world where fake news is big money.

If MeToo is allowed to continue I can't see how it can end well for anybody. But I do think it will end. Either we get a conservative reaction and we just stop believing women's accusations again and domestic violence will be kosher again or women are removed from the work place. Right now those are the only two scenarios I find plausible. Because the MeToo proponents seem unwilling to understand the beast they have released or it's consequences.

Or ... another plausible scenario is that the decades of a lifetime of pent up emotions over needing to endure this bullshit spilling out will cool down and people will learn to deal with the matter reasonably.

France's Reign of Terror springs to mind.

Mind of crazy people, maybe.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Here's a good documentary putting the finger on the problem

https://youtu.be/hflGmLVFFkk

 

[ronburgundy]

Regardless of how many careers are actually lost unfairly, though, the topic of the thread has to do with the perception of whether someone is risking their career by being alone with a woman or taking one on as a mentor. As a related example, my wife and her friends will not use Uber alone and will pay more for a taxi when they're travelling by themselves because they've heard stories of Uber drivers raping women and think that all the background checks and the like make taxis safer options. Now, over 99.99% of Uber rides are perfectly safe and they wouldn't get sexually assaulted but there's enough stories about it that the potential of it is sufficient for them to avoid the situation.

If there is a similar sort of perception amongst male executives because they feel there are enough stories about false accusations that the potential of it is sufficient for them to avoid the situation and that one-on-one time with senior leadership is a valuable thing for one's career, then the careers of female workers would be negatively impacted by not being able to participate in them.

I actually agree with you here, but it seems to me that the men DrZoidberg is referencing are being quite ridiculous in such a way that I highly suspect their real motives.

Your wife and her friends take the precaution for their personal safety to use a taxi for their transportation.

And these men are taking the precaution for the safety of their careers, which ultimately would impact even their physical well being.
Whatever difference exists, lies in the reasonableness of fear and probability of the threat. If both threats are real, then both responses are defensible. Claims that sexual assault is so much worse than having your career ruined and financial well being destroyed are and irrelevant red herring. Both are more than bad enough that people are justified in avoiding situations that make such outcomes more likely. Besides, we could change the Uber scenario to one where women were just trying to avoid being hit on by drivers, which is far less severe and harmful than being wrongly accused of sexual harassment. Wouldn't it be acceptable for women afraid of being hit on by drivers to select only female drivers when possible?

They do not, however, block Uber drivers from working or advancing in their own careers.

They do so in the same way that these execs are harming the careers of women. By refusing to use Uber, these women are harming the careers of Uber drivers. In neither case is anyone blocking anyone from working, just refusing to work with them, which inherently is harmful to that person's career.

As Toni said to DrZoidberg, no one needs to put themselves in a potentially compromising situation in order to mentor an upcoming employee. That they seem to claim they must, that it is all or nothing, is why I think they doth protest too much.

If one is interacting with women in the workplace, it is not realistic to avoid any situation where one would be harmed by a false accusation was false accusation or an irrational misinterpretation. In many situations, there is simply no way to prove the accusation is not accurate, and even when there is, a climate of presumed guilt (the message behind the "believe her" meme) means one is fired or has their career damaged regardless.

It isn't that these men assume that they cannot reduce the probability of such an accusation, but that the extra precautions they would need to enact are not worth the extra effort, and that any such efforts would only reduce and not eliminate the threat anyway. They can reduce the threat more and more easily by simply avoiding women professionally when there is a non-female alternative available. Sure, it is a purely selfish reaction that puts one's desire to avoid any potential harm to oneself above causing certain actual harm to the careers of many others. But no more so than if some women stopped using male drivers and only used female drivers. Self protection by avoiding situations often lead to harm caused to others. The issue comes down to how reasonable the fear is.