PyramidHead
Contributor
You said they've stated it quite clearly. I'm curious as to where you found this clear statement of theirs, and how you determined it was from the Official Antifa Tribunal of Clear Statements.
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Remember, Antifa only attacks fascists, right?
- Thread starter Jason Harvestdancer
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You said they've stated it quite clearly. I'm curious as to where you found this clear statement of theirs, and how you determined it was from the Official Antifa Tribunal of Clear Statements.
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Again, he's not a reporter. He plays one on the internet.
PyramidHead
Contributor
Me, an utter moron, a dunce: the El Paso shooter killed a lot of people
You, politically enlightened: WHAT? A PERSON WHO HAPPENED TO BE CARRYING AN OBJECT WAS INVOLVED IN A PHENOMENON THAT HAPPENED IN A PLACE? COLOR ME FLABBERGASTED!
Fair enough. So answer plainly then once and for all and stay consistent with your answers. Do you or do you not support the assault of Mr. Ngo? Do you or do you not support physical violence against non-violent white nationalists? Do you or do you not support physical violence against Trump supporters? Do you or do you not support physical violence against conservatives generally? State your boundaries for us so we don't mischaracterize you.
Bullshit. I myself am brown and liberal. I speak out against all violence against anyone based on their race or ethnicity. I simply don't endorse initiating violence against people I presume or accuse of being racist or right wing.
Are you in that group? Because given what you've written so far I'm having a hard time guessing if you are or not. This thread isn't about Antifa disrupting and stopping a lynching. Its about them attacking a journalist, or idiot if that's what you want to call him (doesn't matter).
Not everyone who identifies as Antifa is violent, that's true. Some of them actually are against fascism. But that's not the ones I'm talking about nor the actions you've been appearing to defend. Tell us you don't defend violence from Antifa and I'll take your word for it. Do you or not?
It wasn't me that brought in the word authoritarian. I merely pointed out that authoritarian violence isn't unique to the right, when our privileged authoritarian left admin wrote her usual screed. I wasn't even talking particularly about Antifa.
Well, as you said, 'Antifa' isn't all of a unified view. Some in Antifa want to exercise no control over people. Others certainly want to control freedom of speech, of assembly, etc, of those of anyone who disagrees with their views.
I don't recall him asking to be assaulted. Do you excuse him being assaulted if he did such a provocation (which you have yet to prove)? Do you realize that his being assaulted is only going to rile up the people you fear being riled up to violence against those you purport to care about? What boundaries did he cross? Was a law broken in him doing so? Did you encourage the police to arrest him for it before endorsing vigilante "justice" against him?
Oh ok good. So can you stop telling us he was asking for it or he deserved it then? Will you condemn those who attacked him now?
You are calling him being assaulted "resistance to fascism" again now? Do you endorse that violent "resistance" against him? And yes, unaccountable non-state agents shaping behaviour through violence and fear is what terrorism means.
You pick a side. Either you are for violence against peaceful people not engaged in violence, that you hate for their views, or you're not. And nobody said everybody is equally at fault. That doesn't speak to anyone being not at fault. Violence tends to be cyclical. The attack on Ngo probably spurned on some violent neo-nazi types, giving them what they see as justification for their own violence.
Jason Harvestdancer
Contributor
Ah yes, you are going to rely on the fact that they are not centrally organized to pretend they don't have shared beliefs. Predictable. I should have known better than to expect you to talk honestly about the beliefs Antifa actually supports.
I'll leave it at reiterating Jolly's questions. You are pretty much this board's most ardent supporter of this group of white middle class kids pretending to be revolutionaries. Do you or do you not support the assault of Mr. Ngo? Do you or do you not support physical violence against non-violent white nationalists? Do you or do you not support physical violence against Trump supporters? Do you or do you not support physical violence against conservatives generally? State your boundaries for us so we don't mischaracterize you.
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Stop dodging. You made a statement, now back it up.
TSwizzle
I am unburdened by what has been.
He wasn't assaulted for being a idiot or a "reporter" or being gay or being right wing or whatever. He was assaulted for crossing the "Proud Boys" and that's the price you pay when you mess with these idiots. You play stupid games you get stupid prizes. Why do you care so much about this impostor ? You act like he's some sort of martyr, he's not. He's a no mark internet blogger. Fuck Ngo. He got what he wanted and it has backfired.
Jason Harvestdancer
Contributor
Anything to avoid discussing what Antifa actually supports, right?
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Yes, that is exactly what you are doing.
Jason Harvestdancer
Contributor
FIXT.
Anything I come up with to describe that group of white middle-class college kids will be met with "Not ALL Antifa are like that." PH has repeatedly defended Antifa by pointing out they don't have a central organization but are a group of separate affiliated organizations. Anything you try to ascribe to them, he will say "NAAALT".
That's why I asked him to tell me their shared positive beliefs. You are helping him duck that question, for the same reason he is ducking the question.
Apparently since there is no central organization, anyone in Antifa can believe anything. That means one can even be a fascist and be in Antifa. If I am wrong, give me some positive beliefs about what Anfia believes, above and beyond "well, they oppose fascism". Or tell me where is the central authority that declares from on high that fascism isn't allowed in Antifa. Remember, the two defenses are to avoid discussing positive beliefs, and to declare NAAALT whenever someone does come up with a positive belief. Well, I suppose a fascist Antifa would be an example of NAAAFLT.
The one thing that has been revealed by PH is that whenever I or JP discuss Antifa in terms of "we don't believe in initiating violence", PH has called both of us white. Neither of us are white. Apparently PH believes white people don't initiate violence but minorities do.
BACK TO TOPIC.
Pyramid Head. I'll leave it at reiterating Jolly's questions. You are pretty much this board's most ardent supporter of this group of white middle class kids pretending to be revolutionaries. Do you or do you not support the assault of Mr. Ngo? Do you or do you not support physical violence against non-violent white nationalists? Do you or do you not support physical violence against Trump supporters? Do you or do you not support physical violence against conservatives generally? State your boundaries for us so we don't mischaracterize you.
PyramidHead
Contributor
Here are the facts whether you like them or not
1. There is no such thing as a non-violent white nationalist. White nationalism is an ideology that can only achieve its goals through violence against innocent people; any effort to spread it or give it purchase in society is an enabling and initiating act of violence.
2. As such, all antifa counter-violence, no matter how misguided or occasionally over the top (though it has never resulted in one death) is self defense.
3. Violence in self defense is justified in its intent and should be supported in general, even if every instance of it isn't perfectly congruent to the specific threat being defended against.
4. The President is a fascist sympathizer at the very least, and military/police organizations across the country are stocked with violent racists who disproportionately target minorities and turn a blind eye to Neo-Nazis.
5. There are no adequate mechanisms within federal, state, and local law enforcement that can be relied upon to resist or confront fascists and the people who support them.
6. Innocent people should not live in fear of harm coming to them because of the color of their skin, their religion, their sexual orientation, their birthplace, or their status as immigrants. They should feel welcome in their homes.
7. White nationalists SHOULD live in fear of resistance and retaliation against them by society; they should not feel welcome anywhere.
If you agree with the above, support antifa as a rule and give them the benefit of the doubt, as a rule. Not in all times and places, not for all individual acts. But they are the good guys and they are the ones in a position of vulnerability and defense, the ones acting in solidarity for a common good, even if their tactics are sometimes aggressive, so get with the program and proclaim, as I do, that you are also part of antifa.
If you don't agree with the above, I won't try to change your mind because I don't think it's possible to do so. But I hope you eventually come to your senses.
1. There is no such thing as a non-violent white nationalist. White nationalism is an ideology that can only achieve its goals through violence against innocent people; any effort to spread it or give it purchase in society is an enabling and initiating act of violence.
2. As such, all antifa counter-violence, no matter how misguided or occasionally over the top (though it has never resulted in one death) is self defense.
3. Violence in self defense is justified in its intent and should be supported in general, even if every instance of it isn't perfectly congruent to the specific threat being defended against.
4. The President is a fascist sympathizer at the very least, and military/police organizations across the country are stocked with violent racists who disproportionately target minorities and turn a blind eye to Neo-Nazis.
5. There are no adequate mechanisms within federal, state, and local law enforcement that can be relied upon to resist or confront fascists and the people who support them.
6. Innocent people should not live in fear of harm coming to them because of the color of their skin, their religion, their sexual orientation, their birthplace, or their status as immigrants. They should feel welcome in their homes.
7. White nationalists SHOULD live in fear of resistance and retaliation against them by society; they should not feel welcome anywhere.
If you agree with the above, support antifa as a rule and give them the benefit of the doubt, as a rule. Not in all times and places, not for all individual acts. But they are the good guys and they are the ones in a position of vulnerability and defense, the ones acting in solidarity for a common good, even if their tactics are sometimes aggressive, so get with the program and proclaim, as I do, that you are also part of antifa.
If you don't agree with the above, I won't try to change your mind because I don't think it's possible to do so. But I hope you eventually come to your senses.
Jason Harvestdancer
Contributor
Long live the forums reigning dodgeball champion.
If you REALLY meant what you wrote, this is what you would have written.
1. There is no such thing as a non-violent government. Government is an ideology that can only achieve its goals through violence against innocent people; any effort to spread it or give it purchase in society is an enabling and initiating act of violence.
2. As such, all antifa counter-violence, no matter how misguided or occasionally over the top (though it has never resulted in one death) is self defense.
3. Violence in self defense is justified in its intent and should be supported in general, even if every instance of it isn't perfectly congruent to the specific threat being defended against.
4. All Presidents are government sympathizers at the very least, and military/police organizations across the country are stocked with violent government enforcers who disproportionately target civilains and turn a blind eye to fellow government enforcers.
5. There are no adequate mechanisms within federal, state, and local law enforcement that can be relied upon to resist or confront government officials and the people who support them.
6. Innocent people should not live in fear of harm coming to them for any reason. They should feel welcome in their homes.
7. Government officials SHOULD live in fear of resistance and retaliation against them by society; they should not feel welcome anywhere.
If you REALLY meant what you wrote, this is what you would have written.
1. There is no such thing as a non-violent government. Government is an ideology that can only achieve its goals through violence against innocent people; any effort to spread it or give it purchase in society is an enabling and initiating act of violence.
2. As such, all antifa counter-violence, no matter how misguided or occasionally over the top (though it has never resulted in one death) is self defense.
3. Violence in self defense is justified in its intent and should be supported in general, even if every instance of it isn't perfectly congruent to the specific threat being defended against.
4. All Presidents are government sympathizers at the very least, and military/police organizations across the country are stocked with violent government enforcers who disproportionately target civilains and turn a blind eye to fellow government enforcers.
5. There are no adequate mechanisms within federal, state, and local law enforcement that can be relied upon to resist or confront government officials and the people who support them.
6. Innocent people should not live in fear of harm coming to them for any reason. They should feel welcome in their homes.
7. Government officials SHOULD live in fear of resistance and retaliation against them by society; they should not feel welcome anywhere.
PyramidHead
Contributor
Antifa means anti-fascist action. There is no other shared belief that describes them. You might as well ask, "Well, it's easy to say that anti-fracking activists are against, but what do they stand for?!" They stand for not fracking. You can't glean a playbook of common ideals by collecting stories of anti-fracking protesters who smashed windows and extrapolating that anti-fracking means anti-windows. Antifa stands for protecting the targets of right-wing extremism by confronting right-wing extremists publicly with physical resistance.
Jason Harvestdancer
Contributor
Where is the central authority clearing antifa beliefs that declared this to be so?
PyramidHead
Contributor
Works for me. I believe in all of those too. Have you already forgotten which one of us was defending cops in the other thread?
PyramidHead
Contributor
I'll give you a hint: it's not a woman named Auntie Fa.
Elixir
Made in America
That's the beauty of egalitarian anarchy. PH is such an authority.
Antifa doesn't need a Hitler or a Trump to worship and rally around, like white supremacists do.
PyramidHead
Contributor
This is now a thread about why all cops are bastards. Thank you Jason for reminding us not to forget this important fact.
The authoritarian cult of scientology also has such a problem with critics. It's as if they cannot grasp that a bunch of independent actors can come to the same or similar conclusions without an authority or ideological group telling them to.
I've been watching the cult and its critics for twenty years, and they are still bent on finding that authority figure to take out to destroy the whole critic movement.
PyramidHead
Contributor
It's the same with the right wing. They said it about the women's march, Occupy, and any other left-leaning protest: it must be backed by a (((shadowy oligarch))), because everybody knows that people don't spontaneously form coalitions without dark money from think thanks and investors.