Forgery suspect killed by cop restricting his airway

[Loren Pechtel]

How is this not a religion?

Because of the mountain of robust evidence that it is the case, much of which has been presented in various threads over several years.

Ok, perhaps it is not primarily the cause. It is at least clearly and obviously a somewhat important relevant factor. That is something that is not even viably disputable by reasonable, intelligent and informed people.

Racism denialists/minimisers like you and Loren might be another matter however. You are essentially an integral part of what is wrong with attitudes in your society, and imo I think you should be ashamed of yourselves. Really. And personally I don’t think you have much if anything useful to contribute on any forum that seeks to promote rational thinking on these important topics.

I see what’s happening in America and then I see your responses to it and it literally makes me feel sick, and indeed angry.

The problem is you have a mountain of quicksand.

The vast majority of the "evidence" for discrimination fails to adequately control for differences in the populations. Strangely enough the evidence tends to wither when better controls are used. Off the top of my head:

1) Inferior medical treatment for blacks? Nope--inferior medical treatment in inner city medical facilities which are overloaded and underfunded (because so many patients don't pay at all.) Same facility, the "discrimination" vanishes.

2) Race matters in schooling? Not once you control adequately for the parents. Note that one of these factors is the age when they had their first child.

If there is better evidence why do we keep seeing crap evidence? It's like the creationists--the pile of crap they use to prove their position basically proves they don't have real evidence.

And note that we have both advocated for truly colorblind approaches--the people making the decisions do not know the race or other such things that they are supposedly discriminating on. That ensures no discrimination--but that's not what the left wants.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Thanx, ZiprHead. That shows the sort of thing that policing should be reserved for -- and it shows how gently the suspect is being treated by some standards. He's handcuffed but not being beaten up or worse.

Don't resist, you're unlikely to be beaten. Cause trouble for the cops and they're prone to administering a bit of punishment right there.

 

[ZiprHead]

Thanx, ZiprHead. That shows the sort of thing that policing should be reserved for -- and it shows how gently the suspect is being treated by some standards. He's handcuffed but not being beaten up or worse.

Don't resist, you're unlikely to be beaten. Cause trouble for the cops and they're prone to administering a bit of punishment right there.

Funny how hospital personnel routinely have to treat rude, combative, and even violent patients and don't beat them up.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And more recently there was the subprime lending of the early 2000s, when black applicants were, amongst other dubious practices, offered and sold more expensive loans than whites of equivalent financial status.

Locally there was a huge article in the paper about it--oops, it provided enough data to make the whole thing look suspect.

The "discrimination" was against houses, not buyers. The justice warriors screamed "redlining!"--but was it? If it was redlining why did it only show up on low-down mortgages and not traditional 80/20 mortgages? Meanwhile, I compared the zip codes supposedly being redlined to the price appreciation map the paper prints every so often, which is again by zip code. The "redlined" zip codes were the ones on the very bottom of the appreciation list.

Now, we are left with two possibilities:

1) Basically every lender in town has decided to discriminate against blacks who want low-down mortgages.

2) Lenders are looking at something else--the financial position they're likely to be in if things go south in a few years. Low down and low appreciation means they're almost certainly not going to get as much from a foreclosure sale as is owed and counting real estate commissions the owners are generally underwater.

Case 1 doesn't make much sense. Even if we have a bunch of racists why discriminate against only certain borrowers? Case 2 makes perfect sense and isn't discriminatory. However, it does require a judgment call--the expected appreciation of the property.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The lawyer for one of the officers who watched Floyd's murder is trying to shift the blame to bystanders for not interceding against four armed men with badges:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ests-updates/#link-REP3E2HLTJAV5P5QYWZ2OT62BQ

You can't make this shit up.

When you watch that video it's obvious the one officer wanted to help the guy and started to go toward him but was pushed away by his superior. That would have been a great time to push the superior to the ground and tell him we're not out here for this. They guy would have been a real hero.

But most cops are young and trained to follow orders so you can't fault them for following orders. But someone needs to teach them the difference between a lawful and an unlawful order, same goes for police behavior.

And then there's training and role playing so they get to practice what they're supposed to know and do.

 

[Deepak]

Don't resist, you're unlikely to be beaten

Jesus fucking Christ

After he got out, he physically resisted officers

Which controls did you implement when you experimentally validated this assertion?

 

[lpetrich]

Congresswoman Ilhan Omar Says MPD Should be Dismantled - YouTube - because small reforms here and there haven't done much.

She compared the issue to what to do about a cancer: cut it out.

Senate Republicans Move To Launch Police Reform Proposal : NPR - led by Sen. Tim Scott (R-SC), the only black Republican Senator

Scott said Republicans are considering a proposal to increase training to focus on de-escalation tactics that would lessen the potential for chokeholds and other dangerous forms of police restraints. But Scott was clear his GOP colleagues aren't fans of the major items in the Democratic legislation, which includes bans on chokeholds and no-knock warrants in drug-related cases. He also ruled out reform of the legal doctrine for police known as qualified immunity — a key provision in the bill Democrats unveiled Monday.

How Senate Republicans reacted to Trump’s Buffalo protester tweet - YouTube - what a spectacle of evasion.

Trump's trapped in his own bunker of fear — with his fan base of right wing cowards | Salon.com - "Conservatives pose like tough guys while mocking unprotected protesters with actual physical and moral courage"

We're now more than a week into the White House's attempts to rationalize Donald Trump's choice to tear gas peaceful protesters in order to clear the way for a photo op, and the excuses aren't getting any better. Officials can't even decide on one lie to tell, ping-ponging between denying the violence against protesters was that serious — the event was extensively documented — to claiming it was justified. The latest excuse from Attorney General Bill Barr, who previously tried to deny he ordered the action, somehow falls into both camps.

...
White House officials can't settle on a coherent narrative for a simple reason: Trump's decision to tear gas protesters exposed the lie behind his tough-guy preening, showing that he's actually a sniveling coward underneath.

 

[DBT]

Floyd may have initially resisted officers, but that doesn't even slightly excuse how he was treated after he was subdued.

 

[Patooka]

Thanx, ZiprHead. That shows the sort of thing that policing should be reserved for -- and it shows how gently the suspect is being treated by some standards. He's handcuffed but not being beaten up or worse.

Don't resist, you're unlikely to be beaten. Cause trouble for the cops and they're prone to administering a bit of punishment right there.

Don't beat the fuck out of innocent law abiding citizens, you're unlikely to be policing a rioting city. Now I know I'm being unrealistic here, aren't I? Nevermind the fact there are entire fucking continents that show your attitude is bullshit.

 

[laughing dog]

Thanx, ZiprHead. That shows the sort of thing that policing should be reserved for -- and it shows how gently the suspect is being treated by some standards. He's handcuffed but not being beaten up or worse.

Don't resist, you're unlikely to be beaten. Cause trouble for the cops and they're prone to administering a bit of punishment right there.

You do realize you are saying that police are easily provoked violence-prone assholes.

 

[lpetrich]

Derek Chauvin and George Floyd had history of not getting along, coworkers say - YouTube

Both George Floyd and Derek Chauvin, the ex-police officer charged for Floyd's death, worked together at a nightclub and had a history of not getting along. The owner of the nightclub says Chauvin was afraid and intimidated by black people. Jeff Pegues has the details.

So DC seems like he wanted to get even with GF.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Derek Chauvin and George Floyd had history of not getting along, coworkers say - YouTube

Both George Floyd and Derek Chauvin, the ex-police officer charged for Floyd's death, worked together at a nightclub and had a history of not getting along. The owner of the nightclub says Chauvin was afraid and intimidated by black people. Jeff Pegues has the details.

So DC seems like he wanted to get even with GF.

Well, any claim that George was resisting in these minor ways can now be seen in this context...he knew Chauvin hated him. He may have initially wanted to gtfo or been sick to his stomach with fear so much he was confused. None of that excuses Chauvin's actions, of course, but it might explain George knew something real was coming.

 

[ruby sparks]

And more recently there was the subprime lending of the early 2000s, when black applicants were, amongst other dubious practices, offered and sold more expensive loans than whites of equivalent financial status.

Locally there was a huge article in the paper about it--oops, it provided enough data to make the whole thing look suspect.

The "discrimination" was against houses, not buyers. The justice warriors screamed "redlining!"--but was it? If it was redlining why did it only show up on low-down mortgages and not traditional 80/20 mortgages? Meanwhile, I compared the zip codes supposedly being redlined to the price appreciation map the paper prints every so often, which is again by zip code. The "redlined" zip codes were the ones on the very bottom of the appreciation list.

Now, we are left with two possibilities:

1) Basically every lender in town has decided to discriminate against blacks who want low-down mortgages.

2) Lenders are looking at something else--the financial position they're likely to be in if things go south in a few years. Low down and low appreciation means they're almost certainly not going to get as much from a foreclosure sale as is owed and counting real estate commissions the owners are generally underwater.

Case 1 doesn't make much sense. Even if we have a bunch of racists why discriminate against only certain borrowers? Case 2 makes perfect sense and isn't discriminatory. However, it does require a judgment call--the expected appreciation of the property.

Loren, it was probably a mix of several things. Your endless, tortured efforts to try to eliminate bias from such issues are as unconvincing now as they ever were. I have discussed racial issues with you a LOT, in the past, but now I have mostly stopped, because what you do, Loren, is racism denial. There is no other word for it. And if it's not outright denial it's insidious minimising, which is nearly as bad.

You're right, we did look into this in detail before. And imo it did not in fact pan out the way you were seeing it. The subprime lending thing had some dodgy racial aspects to it. That's not saying racial bias was necessarily the main problem. It probably wasn't, imo. Get into this with someone else maybe.

Also, I see you conveniently ignored the other items I listed. But we've done those before too. So I know what your response is anyway. It's the usual 'colour blind' set of responses. It either wasn't racism or if it was it was in the past blah blah blah all the way down the line to where you pitch your tent, at the spot where there are essentially no significant, systemic anti-black racism issues in the USA nowadays. Loren, that's a bankrupt position. Racial bias and unfairness are still today clearly and evidently and demonstrably more of a problem in the USA than you acknowledge, even if they are also less of a problem than sometimes claimed and even if, obviously, other factors are sometimes not taken into reasonable consideration.

Also, if you're going to cite something, in this case an article from some newspaper or other, could you please just provide a link, because it could have been a good article, or it could have not been a good article. Also, imo you have a habit of pulling stuff out of your arse a bit too often so I'm never sure whether what you say is from a good source or even sourced at all.

On which note, did you get back to me yet regarding evidence or a case for your claim that AA hiring had resulted in lower police standards? If you did, I must have missed it. If you didn't, do you see my problem with some of your claims?

 

[Worldtraveller]

Thanx, ZiprHead. That shows the sort of thing that policing should be reserved for -- and it shows how gently the suspect is being treated by some standards. He's handcuffed but not being beaten up or worse.

Don't resist, you're unlikely to be beaten. Cause trouble for the cops and they're prone to administering a bit of punishment right there.

Funny how hospital personnel routinely have to treat rude, combative, and even violent patients and don't beat them up.

Also, Loren is flat out lying here. There are dozens of videos (George Floyd comes to mind) of people (usually of color) not resisting in any way, shape, or form, that then show those people beaten, often killed, at the hands of the thugs he glorifies. If those are all the ones that get caught on video, just imagine how many more there are that we don't see.

 

[Elixir]

Thanx, ZiprHead. That shows the sort of thing that policing should be reserved for -- and it shows how gently the suspect is being treated by some standards. He's handcuffed but not being beaten up or worse.

Don't resist, you're unlikely to be beaten. Cause trouble for the cops and they're prone to administering a bit of punishment right there.

Funny how hospital personnel routinely have to treat rude, combative, and even violent patients and don't beat them up.

Obviously they should be carrying guns. Especially in this time of pandemic, they don't have time to coddle probably criminals with violent tendencies. They should be at least as authorized as police are to summarily off anyone who threatens to impede their work.

 

[atrib]

Thanx, ZiprHead. That shows the sort of thing that policing should be reserved for -- and it shows how gently the suspect is being treated by some standards. He's handcuffed but not being beaten up or worse.

Don't resist, you're unlikely to be beaten. Cause trouble for the cops and they're prone to administering a bit of punishment right there.

And that is why reform is necessary. This attitude that police can mete out justice on the streets without fear of being held accountable has to change. More and more police interactions are being captured on video, and these days, the whole world gets to watch when the police kill a man lying with his hands cuffed behind his back in cold blood, in daylight, and in front of witnesses. The old ways of policing through intimidation and violence no longer work, and the police have to be trained to act appropriately.

 

[atrib]

Derek Chauvin and George Floyd had history of not getting along, coworkers say - YouTube

Both George Floyd and Derek Chauvin, the ex-police officer charged for Floyd's death, worked together at a nightclub and had a history of not getting along. The owner of the nightclub says Chauvin was afraid and intimidated by black people. Jeff Pegues has the details.

So DC seems like he wanted to get even with GF.

Watching Chauvin's behavior during the encounter with Floyd, and the unnecessary brutality with which Chauvin handled the situation makes me believe that there was bad blood between the two. The way Chauvin behaved makes no sense otherwise. One of the police officers on the scene apparently warned Chauvin that he could not find Floyd's pulse, and suggested they roll Floyd on his side so he could breathe on two separate occasions. Chauvin ignored this warning both times. Chauvin maintained pressure for almost 3 minutes after Floyd had stopped moving, even as civilian witnesses kept telling him that Floyd was unresponsive. This behavior is hard to explain other than in the context of Chauvin wanting to hurt or kill Floyd, in my opinion.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Derek Chauvin and George Floyd had history of not getting along, coworkers say - YouTube

Both George Floyd and Derek Chauvin, the ex-police officer charged for Floyd's death, worked together at a nightclub and had a history of not getting along. The owner of the nightclub says Chauvin was afraid and intimidated by black people. Jeff Pegues has the details.

So DC seems like he wanted to get even with GF.

Watching Chauvin's behavior during the encounter with Floyd, and the unnecessary brutality with which Chauvin handled the situation makes me believe that there was bad blood between the two. The way Chauvin behaved makes no sense otherwise. One of the police officers on the scene apparently warned Chauvin that he could not find Floyd's pulse, and suggested they roll Floyd on his side so he could breathe on two separate occasions. Chauvin ignored this warning both times. Chauvin maintained pressure for almost 3 minutes after Floyd had stopped moving, even as civilian witnesses kept telling him that Floyd was unresponsive. This behavior is hard to explain other than in the context of Chauvin wanting to hurt or kill Floyd, in my opinion.

It isn't surprising, it isn't astounding, it isn't even unexpected that 40% of the population think that Chauvin didn't do anything wrong. And even if that 40% do mouth a few compassionate words, the fact remains of their fake indignance. They accept this behavior and encourage it and wish that the incident would just go away as it has for the past couple hundred years.

 

[lpetrich]

About a daughter's memories of George Floyd:
Ruschell Boone on Twitter: "Many have asked me to share this ⁦@NY1⁩ #nycprotests #Brooklyn https://t.co/ZNh1gvDVP3" / Twitter
then
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "This young woman’s testimony about her father’s role in her life,& how she’s marching for George Floyd’s daughter, moved me.
I felt this way about my dad,too. The father-daughter bond is a formative one for many.
Thank you @RuschellBoone for sharing the humanity of this moment." / Twitter


Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Tear gas is a chemical weapon banned in war.
It is a deep shame that US leaders chose to tear gas our own people last week. It should never, ever happen again.
This week I’m joining @RepMarkTakano & @RepChuyGarcia to introduce a National Ban on Tear Gas: https://t.co/95G7ugsA38" / Twitter

 

[TSwizzle]

It isn't surprising, it isn't astounding, it isn't even unexpected that 40% of the population think that Chauvin didn't do anything wrong.

Where does this come from ?

They accept this behavior and encourage it and wish that the incident would just go away as it has for the past couple hundred years.

Not from the footage I've seen on TV. The condemnation and demands for change through protests have pretty much been world wide.