Forgery suspect killed by cop restricting his airway

[repoman]

Oh man, gotta love blacks sometimes. Not afraid to be non PC.

 

[Arctish]

Oh man, gotta love blacks sometimes. Not afraid to be non PC.

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What does ^this^ have to do with what we're discussing in this thread, aside from having been said by a random black guy?

 

[marc]

I guess we'll have to disagree on that.


But he didn't have his air choked off for nine minutes. If he had, then it would have been a clear case of 1st degree murder.

So Chauvin was merely making knee to neck contact with his knee in George's neck for 9 minutes because Chauvin was a pervert?

WOW, use your brain!

Funny how we have videos of two different people telling the police they can't breath, and obviously they can since they are able to say something, then both mysteriously die a few moments later. Must be some incredible coincidence

 

[Worldtraveller]

Oh man, gotta love blacks sometimes. Not afraid to be non PC.

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What does ^this^ have to do with what we're discussing in this thread, aside from having been said by a random black guy?

Although it's a complete derail, I'd take the above with a huge salt lick. There's a decent chance it's all completely made up anyway.

 

[Emily Lake]

We will almost certainly never know. What we can see is they put him in the cruiser, then pulled him out and the officer put his knee on him for no apparent reason. That makes it very likely that the knee was retaliation for something that happened in the cruiser.

Honestly, I think this is even worse than "She shouldn't have worn such a short skirt". This is a lot more like "Maybe she was wearing a short skirt, or sexy heels, or maybe she smiled at him, and that's why he raped her... but we'll never know. But there must have been some valid reason why he raped her."

It's not even normal victim blaming. This is imagineering that a reason must exist that makes it the victim's fault.

 

[atrib]

We will almost certainly never know. What we can see is they put him in the cruiser, then pulled him out and the officer put his knee on him for no apparent reason. That makes it very likely that the knee was retaliation for something that happened in the cruiser.

Honestly, I think this is even worse than "She shouldn't have worn such a short skirt". This is a lot more like "Maybe she was wearing a short skirt, or sexy heels, or maybe she smiled at him, and that's why he raped her... but we'll never know. But there must have been some valid reason why he raped her."

It's not even normal victim blaming. This is imagineering that a reason must exist that makes it the victim's fault.

Well if you start with the premise that every person who gets killed by the police did something to deserve this fate, there is not much room for objective analysis. All you have to do is make up shit to make the data fit the premise, oops, I mean conclusion.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

We will almost certainly never know. What we can see is they put him in the cruiser, then pulled him out and the officer put his knee on him for no apparent reason. That makes it very likely that the knee was retaliation for something that happened in the cruiser.

Honestly, I think this is even worse than "She shouldn't have worn such a short skirt". This is a lot more like "Maybe she was wearing a short skirt, or sexy heels, or maybe she smiled at him, and that's why he raped her... but we'll never know. But there must have been some valid reason why he raped her."

It's not even normal victim blaming. This is imagineering that a reason must exist that makes it the victim's fault.

I think comparing this to rape will create some interesting analogies. For example, it's like all that above but in addition, the cop raping a woman in broad daylight with 20 witnesses while she is screaming for him to please stop.

 

[Arctish]

We will almost certainly never know. What we can see is they put him in the cruiser, then pulled him out and the officer put his knee on him for no apparent reason. That makes it very likely that the knee was retaliation for something that happened in the cruiser.

Honestly, I think this is even worse than "She shouldn't have worn such a short skirt". This is a lot more like "Maybe she was wearing a short skirt, or sexy heels, or maybe she smiled at him, and that's why he raped her... but we'll never know. But there must have been some valid reason why he raped her."

It's not even normal victim blaming. This is imagineering that a reason must exist that makes it the victim's fault.

I think comparing this to rape will create some interesting analogies. For example, it's like all that above but in addition, the cop raping a woman in broad daylight with 20 witnesses while she is screaming for him to please stop.

And then she stops screaming when he chokes her to death.

 

[Toni]

We will almost certainly never know. What we can see is they put him in the cruiser, then pulled him out and the officer put his knee on him for no apparent reason. That makes it very likely that the knee was retaliation for something that happened in the cruiser.

Honestly, I think this is even worse than "She shouldn't have worn such a short skirt". This is a lot more like "Maybe she was wearing a short skirt, or sexy heels, or maybe she smiled at him, and that's why he raped her... but we'll never know. But there must have been some valid reason why he raped her."

It's not even normal victim blaming. This is imagineering that a reason must exist that makes it the victim's fault.

I think comparing this to rape will create some interesting analogies. For example, it's like all that above but in addition, the cop raping a woman in broad daylight with 20 witnesses while she is screaming for him to please stop.

Yeah, what’s a good discussion without reminding women that they can still be raped...

 

[Jarhyn]

We will almost certainly never know. What we can see is they put him in the cruiser, then pulled him out and the officer put his knee on him for no apparent reason. That makes it very likely that the knee was retaliation for something that happened in the cruiser.

Honestly, I think this is even worse than "She shouldn't have worn such a short skirt". This is a lot more like "Maybe she was wearing a short skirt, or sexy heels, or maybe she smiled at him, and that's why he raped her... but we'll never know. But there must have been some valid reason why he raped her."

It's not even normal victim blaming. This is imagineering that a reason must exist that makes it the victim's fault.

So, killing him as retaliation is premeditation of the act. Premeditating doing an act that would kill someone. Certainly an act that would kill me, and I'm healthy.

 

[repoman]

I'm not justifying it, I'm explaining why it happens and how to avoid it. You can try to avoid things that shouldn't exist in the first place!

What is it that you think Floyd should have avoided? Or what is it that you think shouldn't exist?

We will almost certainly never know. What we can see is they put him in the cruiser, then pulled him out and the officer put his knee on him for no apparent reason. That makes it very likely that the knee was retaliation for something that happened in the cruiser.

Maybe he or the other police decided to send the guy off in an ambulance instead which is why they took him out the cruiser that had or almost had him in.

Didn't want to have him barf or piss himself in it and did not want to clean it up. You know, not wanting to do their job.


There will be records of a call to an ambulance.

 

[DBT]

Kneeling on the neck of a man who is handcuffed, laying face down on the road, is clearly the use of excessive force. It's more than just negligence, given the length of time that pressure was applied, it is murder.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We will almost certainly never know. What we can see is they put him in the cruiser, then pulled him out and the officer put his knee on him for no apparent reason. That makes it very likely that the knee was retaliation for something that happened in the cruiser.

Retaliation may be an explanation, but it is not a justified excuse. It is further evidence that Mr. Chauvin should not be a police officer.

I've never said what happened was proper. I'm talking about how to avoid having it happen to you.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We will almost certainly never know. What we can see is they put him in the cruiser, then pulled him out and the officer put his knee on him for no apparent reason. That makes it very likely that the knee was retaliation for something that happened in the cruiser.

Honestly, I think this is even worse than "She shouldn't have worn such a short skirt". This is a lot more like "Maybe she was wearing a short skirt, or sexy heels, or maybe she smiled at him, and that's why he raped her... but we'll never know. But there must have been some valid reason why he raped her."

It's not even normal victim blaming. This is imagineering that a reason must exist that makes it the victim's fault.

Why do so many people have a hard time telling the difference between reality and perfection? I'm talking about how to live with a flawed system!

 

[Arctish]

We will almost certainly never know. What we can see is they put him in the cruiser, then pulled him out and the officer put his knee on him for no apparent reason. That makes it very likely that the knee was retaliation for something that happened in the cruiser.

Retaliation may be an explanation, but it is not a justified excuse. It is further evidence that Mr. Chauvin should not be a police officer.

I've never said what happened was proper. I'm talking about how to avoid having it happen to you.

So are the Black Lives Matter protesters.

The difference is, you are blaming the victim of police brutality while the protesters are putting the blame squarely where it belongs - on the needlessly violent cops committing the brutality.

The best way to avoid being a victim of police brutality is to weed out the cops most likely to make you one, and to train the rest in ways to control a situation without escalating it into a violent confrontation.

 

[repoman]

Ideally, there would be an ability to be able to deconflate regrettable situations where the cops were forced to shoot by crazy suspects and ones where the cops were trigger finger assholes or just did cold blooded banal evil.

Not many want to be fair about the stats and make fair concessions about them.

 

[ruby sparks]

Ideally, there would be an ability to be able to deconflate regrettable situations where the cops were forced to shoot by crazy suspects and ones where the cops were trigger finger assholes or just did cold blooded banal evil.

Not many want to be fair about the stats and make fair concessions about them.

True. Though I’m not sure if it’s actually not many, because it could be a very vocal minority who are not being reasonable in the way you describe and a majority who are willing to be.

And by the same token, there are a number of people here (I don’t mean you) who are being unreasonable in the other direction, by unhelpfully minimising the extent of the underlying problems.

So as usual it cuts both ways. There are unreasonable people on all sides.

And of course the existence of those unreasonable people, on any side, should not lead to us leaning too far in an opposite direction. We all have a basic responsibility for our own responses and keeping them fair and reasonable rather than using unreasonable people as an excuse to not do that.

 

[ruby sparks]

I've never said what happened was proper. I'm talking about how to avoid having it happen to you.

So are the Black Lives Matter protesters.

The difference is, you are blaming the victim of police brutality while the protesters are putting the blame squarely where it belongs - on the needlessly violent cops committing the brutality.

The best way to avoid being a victim of police brutality is to weed out the cops most likely to make you one, and to train the rest in ways to control a situation without escalating it into a violent confrontation.

Imo, Loren’s perspective has always involved minimising the underlying, broader issues on one side (namely, in this case, the policing side, in other cases regarding racism against African Americans). As such, he consistently leans towards a certain approach. An emphasis on the role and behaviour of individual victims follows naturally once the minimising, arguably overly-apologetic (sometimes actually denialist) position is in place, particularly if it involves minimising the broader issues in favour of analysing individual incidents.

He has sympathies, and it’s clear where they mostly tend to lie and where they don’t.

 

[atrib]

We will almost certainly never know. What we can see is they put him in the cruiser, then pulled him out and the officer put his knee on him for no apparent reason. That makes it very likely that the knee was retaliation for something that happened in the cruiser.

Honestly, I think this is even worse than "She shouldn't have worn such a short skirt". This is a lot more like "Maybe she was wearing a short skirt, or sexy heels, or maybe she smiled at him, and that's why he raped her... but we'll never know. But there must have been some valid reason why he raped her."

It's not even normal victim blaming. This is imagineering that a reason must exist that makes it the victim's fault.

Why do so many people have a hard time telling the difference between reality and perfection? I'm talking about how to live with a flawed system!

A system where some police officers work under the assumption that it is OK to needlessly kill civilians is not just flawed, it is broken. A system where the police and the DA's office work to cover up and protect criminal behavior by rogue officers is not just flawed, it is broken. The system has to be fixed. We pay for the service that the police provide, and we have the power to change things for the better. That should be the goal, not holding classes for black people and minorities to teach them how to not trigger the murderous instincts of the rogue officers who patrol our streets. It is the behavior of the police that has to be reformed, not the behavior of civilians. That is the point you don't get.

 

[Emily Lake]

Why do so many people have a hard time telling the difference between reality and perfection? I'm talking about how to live with a flawed system!

It's a dumb thing to talk about here. A cop kneeling on the neck of a suspect for 9 fucking minutes is not "a flawed system" that any of us should try to live with!

I've never said what happened was proper. I'm talking about how to avoid having it happen to you.

Loren, how the holy fuck do you "avoid" having a cop kneel on your neck for 9 fucking minutes? Once it's past those first few minutes, that's out of your hands altogether! And if you're not resisting during those first few minutes, as well as telling the cop that you can't breathe... what the fuck else do you suggest? I'm guessing "Don't do whatever he did that made the cop so angry that he knelt on his neck until dead"?

Look, this isn't a case where we can say "a reasonable person would have done..." Because the entire situation was unreasonable. And there's no reasonable avoidance strategy here, because there's no reasonable situation in which a person already cuffed, subdued, and inside the fucking cop car should be pulled out of the car and THEN have his neck knelt on!