Merci Mack, a Black woman killed in Dallas, is 18th transgender death this year

[Loren Pechtel]

Pretending it's an external problem is used to support racist narrative.

You're going to have to explain "external" here.

External as in not something caused by the black people. If it's being inflicted on them it must be coming from outside the group.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Pretending it's an external problem is used to support racist narrative.

You're going to have to explain "external" here.

External as in not something caused by the black people. If it's being inflicted on them it must be coming from outside the group.

How can it be a black problem?

 

[repoman]

If the vast majority of trans killed in these reported cases were white and killed by whites in the US, you would have another tune.

 

[Metaphor]

External as in not something caused by the black people. If it's being inflicted on them it must be coming from outside the group.

How can it be a black problem?

It was explained to you already. But I am happy to explain it to you again.

Black people are about 13% of the US population. Black trans people are therefore presumably around 13% of the US trans population.

However, much more than half the trans people murdered in the US are black (20/26 so far this year, if I'm recalling correctly). So black trans people are getting murdered disproportionately to trans people of other races.

Most murders are intraracial, and most murderers are men. Therefore, it is likely that the people murdering the majority of these black transpeople are black men.

People -- almost certainly black men -- are murdering black transpeople at a grossly higher proportion than transpeople from other races are murdered (probably by men from their own racial group).

Therefore, the black community has a particularly violent transphobic response to the existence of trans people.

How do you intend to address the black community to resolve this problem?

 

[Trausti]

How do you intend to address the black community to resolve this problem?

Find a way to blame straight White men? Where is Haven Monahan anyway?

 

[Toni]

Guys, you know that murders are not solved by crude analysis of population statistics, right?

You do know that it matters who killed each of these individuals, right? And that person could be black, white, asian, Hispanic, female, male, intrasex, trans, whatever, right?

So it's premature even for you guys to decide that this is a problem within the black community to be solved.

 

[Metaphor]

Guys, you know that murders are not solved by crude analysis of population statistics, right?

So, when feminists continually write about men's violence towards women, their crude analysis of population statistics is unhelpful?

You do know that it matters who killed each of these individuals, right?

It matters very much. You see, black people are not responsible for the crimes of other black people.

However, feminists seem to have a strange problem in applying the logic to men. For example, telling sexist jokes enables the murder of women (this is not a strawman of a feminist position, it is the actual argument of some feminists. Men create an environment of joking about women, psychopathic men don't recognise that it's a joke, psychopathic men take it as confirmation that it's okay to be violent towards and/or kill women).

Now, as it happens, I don't think I'm responsible for the actions of psychopathic men. But I'm merely applying feminist logic to the situation. If black transwomen have a higher likelihood of being murdered, part of that must be the environment created by the black community that enables these psycopathic black men to murder transwomen.

And that person could be black, white, asian, Hispanic, female, male, intrasex, trans, whatever, right?

Sure, but it's almost certain that the vast majority are black men. And, just as feminists see men's violence towards women as an attitude that men need to work on, black men's violence towards black transwomen is also an attitude that black men need to work on.

So it's premature even for you guys to decide that this is a problem within the black community to be solved.

Really? Because I think the murder of black transwomen to an extent that is disproportionate even for the murder rate in the rest of the trans community is a problem within the black community that very much needs to be addressed.

 

[laughing dog]

So, when feminists continually write about men's violence towards women, their crude analysis of population statistics is unhelpful?

Is there any topic that does not drive you to inject a derail about feminist thought?

Really? Because I think the murder of black transwomen to an extent that is disproportionate even for the murder rate in the rest of the trans community is a problem within the black community that very much needs to be addressed.

You need to demonstrate why this is a problem within the black community. The fact the victims are black is insufficient.

 

[Metaphor]

Is there any topic that does not drive you to inject a derail about feminist thought?

Sure. But it certainly seems relevant here. Feminists have a theory of justice that require a 'community' (men) that in some way 'resembles' an individual perpetrator (men who are perpetrators) to alter its behaviour and examine itself for how it is a co-conspirator and enabler.

You need to demonstrate why this is a problem within the black community. The fact the victims are black is insufficient.

Yes, that would indeed be insufficient, but I did not in any way imply it was sufficient. In fact, I stepped out the logic for Toni and Don2 more than once. However, I will step out the logic again, with slightly more detailed notes. I will also provide my thoughts on where assumptions in the chain of logic might be sufficiently challenged.

• Black transwomen are more likely to be murdered than transwomen of any other race. I presume this is not in contention, as the trans community has specifically pointed to this and it is obvious from the data.
• Most murders are intraracial. Now, Loren warned us here about the fallacy of composition--what's true for all murders might not be true for a subset (e.g. black victims in general are more likely to have been killed by black perpetrators, but it might not apply to, say, black transwomen). However, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I have no good reason to believe that the murder of black transwomen excludes the intraracial element present in homicides in general.
• Most murders are committed by men (see above).
• Black men are killing black transwomen at a higher rate than white men are killing white transwomen.

What is it in the black community that causes black men to be much more likely than white men to be murderously violent towards transwomen?How do you or Toni or Don2 intend to deal with this information?Why is denial your first response?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

External as in not something caused by the black people. If it's being inflicted on them it must be coming from outside the group.

How can it be a black problem?

It was explained to you already. But I am happy to explain it to you again.

Black people are about 13% of the US population. Black trans people are therefore presumably around 13% of the US trans population.

However, much more than half the trans people murdered in the US are black (20/26 so far this year, if I'm recalling correctly). So black trans people are getting murdered disproportionately to trans people of other races.

Most murders are intraracial, and most murderers are men. Therefore, it is likely that the people murdering the majority of these black transpeople are black men.

People -- almost certainly black men -- are murdering black transpeople at a grossly higher proportion than transpeople from other races are murdered (probably by men from their own racial group).

Therefore, the black community has a particularly violent transphobic response to the existence of trans people.

How do you intend to address the black community to resolve this problem?

You seem to keep making the same weird, logical error over and over. The black community doesn't own this since it's not caused by the black community. That doesn't mean they shouldn't care. Everyone should care. I hope that helps you to understand, but really you already understand and just want to poison the thread.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

On June 30, Mack was found with multiple gunshot wounds in an apartment parking lot in east Oak Cliff.

Detectives say during their investigation they were contacted by a witness who has known Walker for more than a year and a half.

According to an arrest warrant affidavit, during the night of the shooting the witness saw Walker sitting outside the apartments wearing all black and a ski mask rolled up around his head.

The witness told police that Walker always wears a ski mask rolled up around his head and pulls the mask down to cover his face when he gets near people, documents state.

The witness says around 5 a.m., he was inside his apartment when he heard gunshots outside. When the witness looked out the window he saw Walker chasing Mack through the parking lot firing a handgun at her, according to the affidavit.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/c...oman/287-0a49c212-9f20-451c-84f5-e2ae84cf2168

Angelo Walker is person accused, sounds guilty, but still. Wearing a ski mask sounds mentally ill. It doesn't seem related to COVID because a ski mask would be ineffective re covid. It sounds like some antisocial personality disorder...which is also consistent with extreme reaction to social media post of love life with trans person. Of course, there is currently very little info known so who knows what we will learn later.

This is an individual. Right?

 

[repoman]

Central Park Karen is also an individual.

 

[Metaphor]

You seem to keep making the same weird, logical error over and over. The black community doesn't own this since it's not caused by the black community. That doesn't mean they shouldn't care. Everyone should care. I hope that helps you to understand, but really you already understand and just want to poison the thread.

In what way isn't it caused by the black community? Who do you think is killing these black transwomen?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

You seem to keep making the same weird, logical error over and over. The black community doesn't own this since it's not caused by the black community. That doesn't mean they shouldn't care. Everyone should care. I hope that helps you to understand, but really you already understand and just want to poison the thread.

In what way isn't it caused by the black community? Who do you think is killing these black transwomen?

Individuals, some of whom are black. Why does their race matter so much to you, aside from poisoning the thread, I mean?

 

[Metaphor]

On June 30, Mack was found with multiple gunshot wounds in an apartment parking lot in east Oak Cliff.

Detectives say during their investigation they were contacted by a witness who has known Walker for more than a year and a half.

According to an arrest warrant affidavit, during the night of the shooting the witness saw Walker sitting outside the apartments wearing all black and a ski mask rolled up around his head.

The witness told police that Walker always wears a ski mask rolled up around his head and pulls the mask down to cover his face when he gets near people, documents state.

The witness says around 5 a.m., he was inside his apartment when he heard gunshots outside. When the witness looked out the window he saw Walker chasing Mack through the parking lot firing a handgun at her, according to the affidavit.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/c...oman/287-0a49c212-9f20-451c-84f5-e2ae84cf2168

Angelo Walker is person accused, sounds guilty, but still. Wearing a ski mask sounds mentally ill. It doesn't seem related to COVID because a ski mask would be ineffective re covid. It sounds like some antisocial personality disorder...which is also consistent with extreme reaction to social media post of love life with trans person. Of course, there is currently very little info known so who knows what we will learn later.

This is an individual. Right?

Yes. It's a black man.

Don2, when feminists write endlessly about men's violence towards women, and tell men that they are complicit in this violence every time they do not challenge a sexist joke, or every time they "disrespect" a woman, or any time men do anything that feminists find offensive, do you say to yourself "that's not a problem with men. An individual did that violence".

I suspect you do not. I suspect you think there is a problem with men and the 'rape culture' and 'patriarchy' that makes them co-responsible for all violent acts that men inflict upon women.

There'd be less domestic violence if society treated women as fully human, is the feminist article of faith. So, let's accept that feminist line of thinking. A community's attitudes can enable violence in the community that is perpetrated by individuals.

So why is this line of thinking acceptable towards 'men', but not 'black men'?

Because black men are killing black transwomen at a far higher rate than white men are killing white transwomen.

What is it in the black community, what systematic factors, are causing this massively higher rate of transphobic violence against transwomen?

If your answer is 'nothing', then I suggest you call out any feminist who speaks about 'men' in generalised terms.

Because you appear to agree that men, as a community, do not have to answer for the behaviour of violent, psychopathic men. (I agree).

 

[Metaphor]

You seem to keep making the same weird, logical error over and over. The black community doesn't own this since it's not caused by the black community. That doesn't mean they shouldn't care. Everyone should care. I hope that helps you to understand, but really you already understand and just want to poison the thread.

In what way isn't it caused by the black community? Who do you think is killing these black transwomen?

Individuals, some of whom are black. Why does their race matter so much to you, aside from poisoning the thread, I mean?

Most of whom are black.

But, I'm glad that you do not wish to examine and call out the entire black community for the violent actions of some individual black people.

So every time a feminist calls out 'men', and blames men as enablers of 'the patriarchy', and as co-conspirators in male violence against women even when the vast majority of men have never been violent towards a woman or anybody, I hope you will have the courage to call the feminists on their bullshit.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Individuals, some of whom are black. Why does their race matter so much to you, aside from poisoning the thread, I mean?

Most of whom are black.

Allegedly and perhaps, and even if so, not meaningful.

But, I'm glad that you do not wish to examine and call out the entire black community for the violent actions of some individual black people.

That would be illogical.

So every time a feminist calls out 'men', and blames men as enablers of 'the patriarchy', and as co-conspirators in male violence against women even when the vast majority of men have never been violent towards a woman or anybody, I hope you will have the courage to call the feminists on their bullshit.

Oh, I see. So, you admit that what you were saying was bullshit and now you are trying to redirect to a completely different derail.

Okay, I will humor you. I've said over and over and over: patriarchy is something that MRAs like YOU should also be upset about because they mostly benefit just a few elite males, even if they also provide other privileges to many other males. Those privileges are relative for most and the drawbacks are too much. Let's take a look at an example I've given before: Iran or Saudi Arabia. So many people have it really bad off, most men included. So, MRAs like you should be AGAINST patriarchy. Even more so because men are used like fodder in wars for the elite class. Also, other theocratic cults of patriarchy like the religious nut in Utah should make MRAs like you angry because of all the young boys who get cast out of the society, even if you can't be mad about all the rapes of little girls, you should still get mad about patriarchy!

So, now that we're done with your latest derail please get back on topic.

The topic here is a that a trans person Merci Mack was killed. It's actually a more important topic than shoes at schools and fake outrage about fake news, quote-mining, and a bunch of other drama which is why you want to poison the thread.

Please stop now. Thank you.

 

[Metaphor]

Oh, I see. So, you admit that what you were saying was bullshit and now you are trying to redirect to a completely different derail.

No. What I was saying was not "bullshit", unless you have a feminist mindset and blame all the people in a group for the actions of some.

Okay, I will humor you. I've said over and over and over: patriarchy is something that MRAs like YOU should also be upset about because they mostly benefit just a few elite males, even if they also provide other privileges to many other males. Those privileges are relative for most and the drawbacks are too much. Let's take a look at an example I've given before: Iran or Saudi Arabia. So many people have it really bad off, most men included. So, MRAs like you should be AGAINST patriarchy. Even more so because men are used like fodder in wars for the elite class. Also, other theocratic cults of patriarchy like the religious nut in Utah should make MRAs like you angry because of all the young boys who get cast out of the society, even if you can't be mad about all the rapes of little girls, you should still get mad about patriarchy!

You don't need to explain to me the disadvantages that men as a class endure in society. I'm well aware of them. However, I do not agree that the systemic disadvantages that men endure in society is a result of 'the patriarchy'.

But, your attempt to sell me on feminist ideas aside, I'm glad you reject the feminist mindset of blaming a category of people for the violent actions of individual members of that category.

So, now that we're done with your latest derail please get back on topic.

The topic here is a that a trans person Merci Mack was killed. It's actually a more important topic than shoes at schools and fake outrage about fake news, quote-mining, and a bunch of other drama which is why you want to poison the thread.

Please stop now. Thank you.

But, I am talking about the thread. Evidently you don't think there is anything in the black community that causes black men to kill black transwomen so alarmingly disproportionately. So, if it is nothing to do with attitudes in the black community, why do black men kill black transwomen so alarmingly disproportionately?

 

[laughing dog]

Is there any topic that does not drive you to inject a derail about feminist thought?

Sure. But it certainly seems relevant here....

No, it has as much relevance as the Jainist's or misogynist's or any other _____ thought's about justice that you ignored. It appears you cannot help but inject a feminist derail into any discussion.

Yes, that would indeed be insufficient, but I did not in any way imply it was sufficient...

In summary, once again, you have insufficient factual basis for your claim.

 

[Metaphor]

No, it has as much relevance as the Jainist's or misogynist's or any other _____ thought's about justice that you ignored. It appears you cannot help but inject a feminist derail into any discussion.

Yes, that would indeed be insufficient, but I did not in any way imply it was sufficient...

In summary, once again, you have insufficient factual basis for your claim.

Non. Either your comprehension is severely lacking, or (as might be indicated by your dishonest editing out of my post showing the exact steps that are sufficient to reach my conclusion) you know my reasoning was sufficient and cannot bring yourself to admit such.

For any individual who is willing to have an honest conversation, I will lay out once again the reasoning I used. laughing dog edited it out of his 'response' above.

Yes, that would indeed be insufficient, but I did not in any way imply it was sufficient. In fact, I stepped out the logic for Toni and Don2 more than once. However, I will step out the logic again, with slightly more detailed notes. I will also provide my thoughts on where assumptions in the chain of logic might be sufficiently challenged.

• Black transwomen are more likely to be murdered than transwomen of any other race. I presume this is not in contention, as the trans community has specifically pointed to this and it is obvious from the data.
• Most murders are intraracial. Now, Loren warned us here about the fallacy of composition--what's true for all murders might not be true for a subset (e.g. black victims in general are more likely to have been killed by black perpetrators, but it might not apply to, say, black transwomen). However, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I have no good reason to believe that the murder of black transwomen excludes the intraracial element present in homicides in general.
• Most murders are committed by men (see above).
• Black men are killing black transwomen at a higher rate than white men are killing white transwomen.

What is it in the black community that causes black men to be much more likely than white men to be murderously violent towards transwomen?How do you or Toni or Don2 intend to deal with this information?Why is denial your first response?