Merci Mack, a Black woman killed in Dallas, is 18th transgender death this year

[Toni]

So, when feminists continually write about men's violence towards women, their crude analysis of population statistics is unhelpful?

Is there any topic that does not drive you to inject a derail about feminist thought?

Sometimes he's happy to go after blacks. Here, he gets a two-fer.

Really? Because I think the murder of black transwomen to an extent that is disproportionate even for the murder rate in the rest of the trans community is a problem within the black community that very much needs to be addressed.

You need to demonstrate why this is a problem within the black community. The fact the victims are black is insufficient.

Racists are quick to point out that most murders are committed by someone the victim knew, rather than strangers. In our society, much of the social and familial interactions occur within racial groups, so most victims of crimes are victims of people of the same racial group as they are.

Which makes it odd that so many white people are sooooooo afraid of black people. They are much more likely to be robbed or murdered or raped by another white person.

 

[Toni]

So, when feminists continually write about men's violence towards women, their crude analysis of population statistics is unhelpful?



It matters very much. You see, black people are not responsible for the crimes of other black people.

However, feminists seem to have a strange problem in applying the logic to men. For example, telling sexist jokes enables the murder of women (this is not a strawman of a feminist position, it is the actual argument of some feminists. Men create an environment of joking about women, psychopathic men don't recognise that it's a joke, psychopathic men take it as confirmation that it's okay to be violent towards and/or kill women).

Now, as it happens, I don't think I'm responsible for the actions of psychopathic men. But I'm merely applying feminist logic to the situation. If black transwomen have a higher likelihood of being murdered, part of that must be the environment created by the black community that enables these psycopathic black men to murder transwomen.

And that person could be black, white, asian, Hispanic, female, male, intrasex, trans, whatever, right?

Sure, but it's almost certain that the vast majority are black men. And, just as feminists see men's violence towards women as an attitude that men need to work on, black men's violence towards black transwomen is also an attitude that black men need to work on.

So it's premature even for you guys to decide that this is a problem within the black community to be solved.

Really? Because I think the murder of black transwomen to an extent that is disproportionate even for the murder rate in the rest of the trans community is a problem within the black community that very much needs to be addressed.

Wow.

 

[Metaphor]

So, when feminists continually write about men's violence towards women, their crude analysis of population statistics is unhelpful?



It matters very much. You see, black people are not responsible for the crimes of other black people.

However, feminists seem to have a strange problem in applying the logic to men. For example, telling sexist jokes enables the murder of women (this is not a strawman of a feminist position, it is the actual argument of some feminists. Men create an environment of joking about women, psychopathic men don't recognise that it's a joke, psychopathic men take it as confirmation that it's okay to be violent towards and/or kill women).

Now, as it happens, I don't think I'm responsible for the actions of psychopathic men. But I'm merely applying feminist logic to the situation. If black transwomen have a higher likelihood of being murdered, part of that must be the environment created by the black community that enables these psycopathic black men to murder transwomen.



Sure, but it's almost certain that the vast majority are black men. And, just as feminists see men's violence towards women as an attitude that men need to work on, black men's violence towards black transwomen is also an attitude that black men need to work on.



Really? Because I think the murder of black transwomen to an extent that is disproportionate even for the murder rate in the rest of the trans community is a problem within the black community that very much needs to be addressed.

Wow.

Thank you for your considered and well argued response.

 

[Toni]

So, when feminists continually write about men's violence towards women, their crude analysis of population statistics is unhelpful?



It matters very much. You see, black people are not responsible for the crimes of other black people.

However, feminists seem to have a strange problem in applying the logic to men. For example, telling sexist jokes enables the murder of women (this is not a strawman of a feminist position, it is the actual argument of some feminists. Men create an environment of joking about women, psychopathic men don't recognise that it's a joke, psychopathic men take it as confirmation that it's okay to be violent towards and/or kill women).

Now, as it happens, I don't think I'm responsible for the actions of psychopathic men. But I'm merely applying feminist logic to the situation. If black transwomen have a higher likelihood of being murdered, part of that must be the environment created by the black community that enables these psycopathic black men to murder transwomen.



Sure, but it's almost certain that the vast majority are black men. And, just as feminists see men's violence towards women as an attitude that men need to work on, black men's violence towards black transwomen is also an attitude that black men need to work on.



Really? Because I think the murder of black transwomen to an extent that is disproportionate even for the murder rate in the rest of the trans community is a problem within the black community that very much needs to be addressed.

Wow.

Thank you for your considered and well argued response.

IMO, I transcended your post in equality and depth. You’re welcome.

 

[laughing dog]

Non. Either your comprehension is severely lacking, or (as might be indicated by your dishonest editing out of my post showing the exact steps that are sufficient to reach my conclusion) you know my reasoning was sufficient and cannot bring yourself to admit such.Either your comprehension is severely lacking, or (as might be indicated by your dishonest editing out of my post showing the exact steps that are sufficient to reach my conclusion) you know my reasoning was sufficient and cannot bring yourself to admit such.

Your premises are unsubstantiated claims of relevant fact. Your reasoning lacked an relevant empirical basis ("most ___" is handwaved irrelevancy since there is no data presented or linked) and logic ("most ___" does not logically mean "necessarily"). Which means your argument was insufficient. Any thinking individual willing to have a honest discussion would realize that claims of fact require a factual basis.

Of course, you can continue your argument that black community (as a group) should act to deal with this problem while you continue to deny that "men" (as a group) should act to deal with the problem of the rape or murder (since men do the most of those).



Note, I "clipped" your response (as you typically do) to the relevant part. There is no "dishonesty" involved. Notice I did not accuse you of "dishonesty" or "cowardice" because you did not address the entirety of my post. Frankly, the tendency of yours to make such false accusations makes your responses and positions appear the desperate reactions of a fragile snowflake than a thoughtful discussant.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Not really where this thread should go but...

Think about when the Irish came to America in waves of immigration. Where'd they end up? In places they were directed to find work, often urban areas of high crime. The discrimination was relentless. Attitudes were terrible.

Imagine the typical joe schmoe talking about the Irish.

Person A: "There are so many Irish deaths, it's terrible."
Joe Schmoe: "Those are mostly Irish killing Irish" [no evidence]
Person A: "Oh, I didn't know that. Why do you suppose it's happening?"
Joe Schmoe: "There's something about the Irish. They live in filth, they steal, they murder. They'd kill each other over a pint."

Now, if you can't figure out what is wrong with this type of thinking (and I do not mean morally wrong, but instead logically wrong), well, let me just say, you should be able to spend some time thinking about what factors would hypothetically be involved in how crime rates in cities are a thing and how Irish may have made more victims of themselves than others. There is even an admitted white supremacist in the thread who mentioned one factor out of the many: proximity. If you couldn't think of that and he could, please at least try harder.

The reason I draw a parallel between an Irish immigrant of the past and a trans person is the intense discrimination and limit of opportunity...the actual movement of some subpopulation of the trans group due to things like societal rejection, family rejection, healthcare access. Where do they end up in higher percentages? What jobs do they end up with in higher percentages? How do the jobs out them and put them at risk in high crime areas? As far as who they end up with, again at higher percentages than the non-trans population--not even a by-and-large-statistic, then what kinds of problems do the partners they end up with have? (again as a percentage higher)?

There isn't any data to test any hypothesis and prove its worth.

Even in this particular case of Merci Mack. Are we going to really find out the suspected murderer's motivations? I think he may have been mentally ill. How does that justify the "black community" being at fault for Merci's murder?

Here are some other statistics and information across the world (from 2018):

• Nearly 3,000 transgender people were murdered over the last decade worldwide. The most common causes of death were shooting, stabbing and beating.
• At least 369 transgender people were killed in the last 12 months.
• The number of trans people reported murdered each year by TMM has risen steadily, from 148 in 2008 to 358 last year.
• Brazil is the most dangerous country to be transgender, with at least 167 people killed in the last 12 months. Mexico had 71 murders, and the United States saw 28 killed.
• Nearly two thirds of reported victims over the last decade were sex workers.
• In the United States, more than three-quarters of trans people murdered in 2018 were women from an ethnic minority and nearly two thirds were aged under 35.
• In France, Italy, Portugal, and Spain, 65 percent of reported murder victims in the last decade were migrants.
• Nearly three quarters of known U.S. victims in 2018 were initially identified by their previous gender in police or media reports, a practice activists say is disrespectful and can hamper investigations.

https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/murders-of-transgender-people-rising-worldwide-1.6674858

If you are reading these bullets and thinking "Oh, I see, Hispanics are even worse than Blacks!!!" then you are beyond help. If you are reading them and only dividing people up by race, same thing. It's as arbitrary and nonsensical as saying "Oh, the Youth Community is at fault!!"

Things in life are multi-variate--they involve multiple significant variables. The different variables are most often continua, measurably numerical. We often don't even know what are all the variables. ETA: I will add here that the data is very incomplete and probably biased toward looking like more murders happen in certain areas of the world. Maybe. People in many areas of the world do not have freedom to declare their gender identity or even if they do, if the government sanctions their murder, you might not hear about it. This isn't just true at the country-level, but also regionally. So, if you live in some conservative town in West Virginia or you live in Saudi Arabia, you might never reveal yourself to statistics, yet you still may find yourself killed. Urban areas might even be a double-edged sword in a sense because they are so diverse as to put you in contact with some like-minded accepting people, but also put you at high risk of crime. Who knows?

It's tragic and needs to be studied more. In the meantime, discrimination (and transphobia) need to stop so that trans persons have equal opportunity in life and don't end up in these kinds of situations...or at least they do less so.

 

[Metaphor]

Your premises are unsubstantiated claims of relevant fact. Your reasoning lacked an relevant empirical basis ("most ___" is handwaved irrelevancy since there is no data presented or linked)

Your statement is verifiably false.

I implore everybody to revisit the posts in question (e.g. post 80).

I gave links for the facts that most murders are intraracial and most murders are committed by men.

• Most murders are intraracial. Now, Loren warned us here about the fallacy of composition--what's true for all murders might not be true for a subset (e.g. black victims in general are more likely to have been killed by black perpetrators, but it might not apply to, say, black transwomen). However, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I have no good reason to believe that the murder of black transwomen excludes the intraracial element present in homicides in general.
• Most murders are committed by men (see above).

and logic ("most ___" does not logically mean "necessarily").

I never claimed that it did.

Which means your argument was insufficient. Any thinking individual willing to have a honest discussion would realize that claims of fact require a factual basis.

All of them have a factual basis.
Black transwomen are murdered disproportionately
Most murders of black people are intraracial
Most murderers are men

The only 'fact' without direct independent data is that most muders of transwomen are intraracial, and I acknowledged that a subset of the whole does not necessarily follow from the pattern of the whole, but also that outright rejection is less rational than acceptance. Not accepting that black transwomen are murdered mostly by black people would require a belief that murdered black transwomen are killed mostly by nonblack people.

Of course, you can continue your argument that black community (as a group) should act to deal with this problem while you continue to deny that "men" (as a group) should act to deal with the problem of the rape or murder (since men do the most of those).

Non. I want people who believe in blaming entire group demographics for a thing to be consistent in the application of their philosophy.

Note, I "clipped" your response (as you typically do) to the relevant part. There is no "dishonesty" involved. Notice I did not accuse you of "dishonesty" or "cowardice" because you did not address the entirety of my post. Frankly, the tendency of yours to make such false accusations makes your responses and positions appear the desperate reactions of a fragile snowflake than a thoughtful discussant.

No, you clipped out the relevant part.

 

[laughing dog]

Your statement is verifiably false.

Not to anyone who understand the English language.

I gave links for the facts that most murders are intraracial and most murders are committed by men.

Which have nothing to directly to do with murders of black transgendered people.

I never claimed that it did.

Then your argument really was bullshit, since you admit there is no necessary connection between your facts and your conclusion.

All of them have a factual basis.
Black transwomen are murdered disproportionately
Most murders of black people are intraracial
Most murderers are men

The only 'fact' without direct independent data is that most muders of transwomen are intraracial, and I acknowledged that a subset of the whole does not necessarily follow from the pattern of the whole, but also that outright rejection is less rational than acceptance. Not accepting that black transwomen are murdered mostly by black people would require a belief that murdered black transwomen are killed mostly by nonblack people.

Logically, not accepting ____ can mean there is insufficient evidence to accept A. Once again, your argument is based on faulty logic.

Non. I want people who believe in blaming entire group demographics for a thing to be consistent in the application of their philosophy.

Which is irrelevant to your argument. Since you do not believe in blaming entire group demographics, it means you do not even believe your own conclusion that the black community as a group should act to deal with this. Which means you are tacitly admitting your argument is insufficient.

[

No, you clipped out the relevant part.

Nope, it was not relevant to my argument.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Most women are killed by a current or ex intimate male partner.

 

[Metaphor]

Most women are killed by a current or ex intimate male partner.

No, you will have to clear that with laughing dog.

You see, you haven't linked to a source. Also, just because most women who are murdered are killed by current or ex intimate male partners, doesn't mean you can generalise 'women' to 'black transwomen'.

laughing dog, can you please explain to Don2 how he has no evidence that murdered black transwomen are killed mostly by intimate partners? Ta luv.

 

[laughing dog]

Most women are killed by a current or ex intimate male partner.

No, you will have to clear that with laughing dog.

You see, you haven't linked to a source. Also, just because most women who are murdered are killed by current or ex intimate male partners, doesn't mean you can generalise 'women' to 'black transwomen'.

laughing dog, can you please explain to Don2 how he has no evidence that murdered black transwomen are killed mostly by intimate partners? Ta luv.

Don's point is that by using your logic, it is a problem that the male community should act on, not the black community. Since you now apparently endorse that reasoning, what are you going to do?

 

[Toni]

Most women are killed by a current or ex intimate male partner.

No, you will have to clear that with laughing dog.

You see, you haven't linked to a source. Also, just because most women who are murdered are killed by current or ex intimate male partners, doesn't mean you can generalise 'women' to 'black transwomen'.

laughing dog, can you please explain to Don2 how he has no evidence that murdered black transwomen are killed mostly by intimate partners? Ta luv.

Don's point is that by using your logic, it is a problem that the male community should act on, not the black community. Duh.

And Don would be correct. Men are more likely to be murdered than women. Men are more likely to call omit murder and other crimes than are women.

It definitely seems like the male community needs to work on itself.

 

[repoman]

Is the acceptance of transgender in general (with the exception of locker rooms, and most sports) just permeating more slowly to blacks than whites in the US?

25 years ago on Jenny Jones show the gay man surprise crush on his friend that led to either a gay panic or at least an embarrassment based murder



There are other issues related to poverty and stress and I would think. The prostitution violence issue may be of the class of clientele. Are white, hispanic and asian trans prostitutes getting safer higher end customers?

 

[Derec]

So they caught the guy who did it.
Police Charged A Man Over The Death Of Merci Mack, A Black Trans Woman Killed In Dallas

Police have charged a 20-year-old man with the murder of Merci Mack Richey, a Black transgender woman shot and killed in Dallas on the last day of Pride Month.
The North Texas Fugitive Task Force arrested Angelo Walker on Wednesday. He appeared in court on Thursday, charged with murder and breaking probation for a past aggravated robbery. No attorney is listed for him.

So Toni, can we stop blaming all men for it now? Turns out the killer was somebody Merci knew well enough to have some sort of incriminating video with, and she also presumably was blackmailing him with the video.

The arrest affidavit by investigators said Walker and Richey had had an "altercation" about a video of the two of them that she planned to release.
Richey posted on her Facebook on June 29: "Brand new video on my private snap in jusssst a minute y’all have to see how nasty I got with this nigga!"
A friend of hers, Dolly Part, posted on Facebook that Richey and Walker had known each other since they were kids and that he used to bully her.
"I’m so creeped out this man TEASED my bestie for being gay in middle school whole time he really had a crush on her that’s sick you tried to cover your dirt !" she wrote. "You seen her before she transitioned you weren’t tricked it makes sense now you liked my bestie since we were kids then turned around & took her life we can’t get her back over some dumb ass shit !!"

Dangerous business, blackmail, if that's what it was and not straight (no pun intended) trans-panic.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

stuff

This was already posted. Please catch up with the thread before responding again. He seems mentally ill.

 

[Derec]

This was already posted. Please catch up with the thread before responding again.

I guess it's easy to miss given the man-bashing by Toni and the rest of the back and forth.

He seems mentally ill.

I doubt he is literally mentally ill. It seems that what happened was that he and Merci had an intimate relationship of which there was a video. Merci threatened to post the incriminating video on Facebook (kids still use Facebook, I thought it was all about Insta and Tiktok these days?) and Angelo presumably did not want his homies to know that he was on the outside fucking booty holes so he killed her. Not exactly indicative of genuine, diagnosable mental illness.

By the way, this is a great video showing the homophobia/transphobia in the black community.

 

[Metaphor]

Most women are killed by a current or ex intimate male partner.

No, you will have to clear that with laughing dog.

You see, you haven't linked to a source. Also, just because most women who are murdered are killed by current or ex intimate male partners, doesn't mean you can generalise 'women' to 'black transwomen'.

laughing dog, can you please explain to Don2 how he has no evidence that murdered black transwomen are killed mostly by intimate partners? Ta luv.

Don's point is that by using your logic, it is a problem that the male community should act on, not the black community. Since you now apparently endorse that reasoning, what are you going to do?

Non. By my reasoning, it is a black male community problem. Black men kill transwomen at a far higher rate than white men kill transwomen. So, men have a problem with killing, and black men have an even more acute problem. We need to know what blackness does to men to make them more likely than nonblack men to kill transwomen.

I look forward to your contribution.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

This was already posted. Please catch up with the thread before responding again.

I guess it's easy to miss given the man-bashing by Toni and the rest of the back and forth.

He seems mentally ill.

I doubt he is literally mentally ill.

I explained why I thought he was mentally ill in the previous posts. Please read the thread before responding.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

We need to know what blackness does to men to make them more likely than nonblack men to kill transwomen.

That is a logical error that has been explained to you in posts that you refused to respond to. So, it still appears that you know it's bullshit and are just trying to hobby horse the thread.

 

[laughing dog]

Don's point is that by using your logic, it is a problem that the male community should act on, not the black community. Since you now apparently endorse that reasoning, what are you going to do?

Non. By my reasoning, it is a black male community problem. Black men kill transwomen at a far higher rate than white men kill transwomen.

That is an unsubstantiated claim of fact.

So, men have a problem with killing, and black men have an even more acute problem.

According to you, men have a problem with killing. So, according to you, that is problem men should act on. I repeat - what are you going to do about it?

We need to know what blackness does to men to make them more likely than nonblack men to kill transwomen.

Perhaps you do, but "we" don't.

And with that, I think will adopt the mantra of DNFTT.