Your opinion on Christian member participation

[Valjean]

Right, right, right. I love it when religionists imply that without their faith, they'd be criminals, because what would be the basis of morality if there wasn't a god? That is so screwed-up it's hard to fathom. 'You mean, the only reason you didn't shoot me and take my wallet is that you believe some stories from Old Palestine? Trust me, I'm steering clear of you if you ever get a subscription to Freethought Today.'

If religion offers, or even imposes, a deontological moral framework, what motivation is there to develop a strong, internalized morality?
When you're raised walking with crutches you're not likely to develop the strength or balance to walk without external support.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Eh, plenty of atheists state or imply that they would immediately become vicious, violent social conservatives if they were to find Jesus.

Plenty? I've never heard one...
Thinking on it, i guess it'd depend on Jesus?
If he's as described in the Books, no.
If it's Second Amendment, anti-immigrant, Prosperity Gospel Jesus.... Mmm. Still, no.
I'd have to become a vicious, violent social conservative first, before finding thst Jesus.

 

[rousseau]

That is a strawman. The world will not be a paradise. We each even have different ideas on what constitutes a paradise, so let’s not even pretend that term is appropriate or applies. We still want to overall improve the human condition even though it will never come to perfection, and that includes discovering more about how the natural universe around us works.

Striving to better the human condition is fine by me, I think it just needs to come with a healthy sense of realism about what reason has actually accomplished. That's the problem I point to - dogma about the virtues of reason shield us from the ways that it works to our detriment, and it also shields us from the way the world actually works.

Those who are idealistic about it are happy to applaud science and pat themselves on the back while ignoring the ambiguity and complexity of the world. Like I said originally - that's fine by me - it just points to another kind of dogma, similar to ipso facto religion.

Where if you're able to recognize that science, reason, and understanding are basically amoral, but still strive to be reasonable, that is a more consistent, non-dogmatic position.

 

[Brian63]

Striving to better the human condition is fine by me, I think it just needs to come with a healthy sense of realism about what reason has actually accomplished. That's the problem I point to - dogma about the virtues of reason shield us from the ways that it works to our detriment, and it also shields us from the way the world actually works.

In this very thread, you have been presenting arguments that have attempted to use the tool of reason---to demonstrate how reason can lead to our detriment. If you think that is reasonable, why did you bother trying to present a reasonable argument in the first place? Your position is in a circular firing squad. Can't people just as easily say that your view is reasonable, and thus by your own reason it should be rejected?

Those who are idealistic about it are happy to applaud science and pat themselves on the back

That last ad hominem is unnecessary, irrelevant, unwarranted, and unreasonable.

while ignoring the ambiguity and complexity of the world.

I completely agree with you that the world has tremendous ambiguity and complexity. If I was an intended target of that claim, that is a strawman.

Like I said originally - that's fine by me - it just points to another kind of dogma, similar to ipso facto religion.

Where if you're able to recognize that science, reason, and understanding are basically amoral, but still strive to be reasonable, that is a more consistent, non-dogmatic position.

I agree that reason itself is amoral. However, it is a superior means of acquiring knowledge than any other attempted epistemology, such as faith. When our moral goals and values are first decided, the tool of reason is then our best chance to maximizing fulfillment of those goals and values.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's just that tge purpose of the forum is My Little Pony graphic amputee-fetish fanfiction, so bringing faith into the discussions here is really jarring. None of us MLPGAFFers are reaslly interested in such topics, or equipped to deal with the subject matter.
Plus it's so hard to see a title and ubpnderstand if the underlaying subject is going to be religion.

You know, I always thought I was more than a little warped - until I started reading your posts here. You make me feel like a normal person

I will say that you made me laugh with this one.

Ruth

What do you expect for someone who spent years around bottled sunshine?

 

[Keith&Co.]

It's just that tge purpose of the forum is My Little Pony graphic amputee-fetish fanfiction, so bringing faith into the discussions here is really jarring. None of us MLPGAFFers are reaslly interested in such topics, or equipped to deal with the subject matter.
Plus it's so hard to see a title and ubpnderstand if the underlaying subject is going to be religion.

You know, I always thought I was more than a little warped - until I started reading your posts here. You make me feel like a normal person

I will say that you made me laugh with this one.

Ruth

What do you expect for someone who spent years around bottled sunshine?

Canned.

 

[Tigers!]

I enjoy the discussions.

Me too. And I even LIKE two of the Christian posters far more than I like some of the more FAR LEFT posters. But I love everyone. Hugs.

C'mon now who are these two (2) Christian posters of whom you are so fond?

PS: I voted first option.

 

[Ruth Harris]

Okay, there have been several people who visited this thread but didn't vote, according to the list at the bottom. Don't be shy - let your opinion be known and vote! No one will know how you voted so be honest.

Ruth

 

[Politesse]

25 responses is actually a very good turnout for a poll on this site.

 

[WAB]

I enjoy the discussions.

Me too. And I even LIKE two of the Christian posters far more than I like some of the more FAR LEFT posters. But I love everyone. Hugs.

C'mon now who are these two (2) Christian posters of whom you are so fond?

PS: I voted first option.

OH, hey, didn't see this.

Lion and Learner.

Having messaged them behind the scenes, I find them both to be very kind and cordial.

Also, I have sent them both a friend request, something I hardly ever do, unless I feel like talking with a member in private. I don't see the point of friending on a site like this if you're just going to try and friend the ostensibly friendliest posters and/or members who are friendlier to you than others or just really nice and friendly or people who are actually your friends like friends in the real world only you don't know what they look like or sound like.

My favorite person in the whole TFT world is __________ and I have not ever sent her a friend request. At least not that I can recall. ?? She knows who she is.

Aww hell - Hi Spikey!

 

[DrZoidberg]

1) Without disagreement there's not discussion. This is a discussion forum. Christians spice it up.

2) I like drive-by fundamentalists crashing in burning. I miss Syed. I know it doesn't reflect well on me. But for an atheist it's nice to see a caricature of a religious person making a fool of themselves. I wonder what happened to Syed? Did he get banned?

3) The rule against proselytizing we have here is good. While it's good to welcome people with differing opinions, there's got to be a discussion. Proselytizing is not a discussion.

4) It's a good way to measure if we're correct or not. I want my atheism tested. The only way to know if my opinions on this is correct is by having them challenged.

5) There's been quite a few atheist members on the various atheist forums I've been a member of where they first came to try to talk us into joining their religion and they ended up losing their faith and becoming an atheist. While I am not a missionary for atheism I do like to leave this door open.

I say keep it as it is.

 

[Rhea]

Okay, let’s hear from you. Do you think Christians should be allowed to post anything related to their faith on this forum in the appropriate areas? Or should they only be allowed to post secular messages? Maybe you think they shouldn’t be allowed here at all.

I have given you several options to choose from, and I am really interested in seeing what the result will be.

So it looks like the votes are consistent with the forum rules. All topics are welcome for discussion. They get stopped when they devolve to mudslinging or preaching. Other than that - marketplace of ideas.

Curious - did you think the vote would be otherwise?

 

[ideologyhunter]

Now...Hope this isn't a derail, but...what if Jesus HIMSELF begins to post here? You are aware, his followers have told us this might happen. Does HE get a pass on the proselytizing? If he damns some of us, are the moderators going to ban him? If the moderators then get damned, are we going to have their back? I like to think I stand for free expression, but there was that damn fig tree that pissed off Jesus... Christians, can you give us any pointers on this? Forewarned is forearmed.

 

[Politesse]

Curious - did you think the vote would be otherwise?

The unremitting hostility can be a bit confusing if you aren't used to it.

Christians, can you give us any pointers on this? Forewarned is forearmed.

He'd be in more danger from us than from you, I'm sure. Jesus fans are worse than Star Wars fans.

 

[Ruth Harris]

Okay, let’s hear from you. Do you think Christians should be allowed to post anything related to their faith on this forum in the appropriate areas? Or should they only be allowed to post secular messages? Maybe you think they shouldn’t be allowed here at all.

I have given you several options to choose from, and I am really interested in seeing what the result will be.

So it looks like the votes are consistent with the forum rules. All topics are welcome for discussion. They get stopped when they devolve to mudslinging or preaching. Other than that - marketplace of ideas.

Curious - did you think the vote would be otherwise?

Actually, no - this is what I expected.

I was just doing a compare/contrast between the members of this forum and another private forum I belong to which is a Christian forum. I have made the argument there that they should not ban atheist members or discussion, but haven't been making any headway. Some of the members of that forum suggested that I poll the members of this forum and was convinced that it would go entirely the opposite direction.

I admit that I am looking forward to their reactions when I tell them these results

Ruth

 

[Rhea]

Curious - did you think the vote would be otherwise?

Actually, no - this is what I expected.

I was just doing a compare/contrast between the members of this forum and another private forum I belong to which is a Christian forum. I have made the argument there that they should not ban atheist members or discussion, but haven't been making any headway. Some of the members of that forum suggested that I poll the members of this forum and was convinced that it would go entirely the opposite direction.

I admit that I am looking forward to their reactions when I tell them these results

Ruth

Oooh! Let us know, I would be interested what they think.
Also, invite them here. They can ask questions and also visit the humor forum and discover we are gentle beings.

 

[Rhea]

Curious - did you think the vote would be otherwise?

The unremitting hostility can be a bit confusing if you aren't used to it.

Kind of like a young male engineer walking into a room full of female engineers and feeling very uncomfortable, blissfully unaware that he is finally feeling for the first time what all of us have felt for decades? Yes, it is unnerving for them, I have seen that.

But "unremitting hostility" is perhaps not a factual conclusion, it just seems that way when one is in the minority for the first time in their life. For the rest of us, it is "another Tuesday as a minority."

Given the number of Christians that have been banned from here, versus the number of atheists who have been banned from Christian fora, I'm thinking "unremitting hostility" does not mean what you think it means. Just my opinion.

Christians have plenty of experience that should have made them "used to it," they were just on the giving end the whole time and never noticed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Now...Hope this isn't a derail, but...what if Jesus HIMSELF begins to post here? You are aware, his followers have told us this might happen. Does HE get a pass on the proselytizing? If he damns some of us, are the moderators going to ban him? If the moderators then get damned, are we going to have their back? I like to think I stand for free expression, but there was that damn fig tree that pissed off Jesus... Christians, can you give us any pointers on this? Forewarned is forearmed.

Would that be proselytizing, though?

 

[Rhea]

Now...Hope this isn't a derail, but...what if Jesus HIMSELF begins to post here? You are aware, his followers have told us this might happen. Does HE get a pass on the proselytizing? If he damns some of us, are the moderators going to ban him? If the moderators then get damned, are we going to have their back? I like to think I stand for free expression, but there was that damn fig tree that pissed off Jesus... Christians, can you give us any pointers on this? Forewarned is forearmed.

Would that be proselytizing, though?

Why would it NOT be proselytizing? Unless he was using the Socratic method?

 

[Politesse]

Kind of like a young male engineer walking into a room full of female engineers and feeling very uncomfortable, blissfully unaware that he is finally feeling for the first time what all of us have felt for decades? Yes, it is unnerving for them, I have seen that.

But "unremitting hostility" is perhaps not a factual conclusion, it just seems that way when one is in the minority for the first time in their life. For the rest of us, it is "another Tuesday as a minority."

Most Christians who post on TFT are also religious minorities. You yourself often attempt to "throw the Book at me", trying to shame me for my various heresies and supposed hypocrisies, presumably spitting out by rote whatever version of the faith you learned as a child. That being the case, do you think the average Christian church community would do any differently? They came by those opinions the same way you did. and they never escaped even halfway.

But by unremitting hostility, I meant, angry personal attacks and so forth, not just numerical minority, though it is true that these are often connected. These don't come from all posters, some are quite friendly. But it is an unfortunate flaw in our psychology that the feeling of being attacked is a much stronger emotion than that of being treated kindly. It does not therefore take very many nasty people to make a whole environment seem hostile.

Personally, I've never seen "doing unto others as they did to me" as a very healthy or worthwhile life goal.