Idiot dragged out of bar by her hair for not wearing mask

[Loren Pechtel]

Personally, if someone needed to be incapacitated, I would try a choke hold. The person is restrained and rendered unconscious, if done right. If a bouncer can overcome someone well enough to drag them by the hair, then they can put them in a choke hold.

Choke holds require skill to use safely. Used without enough skill they fall into the lethal force category. Not all that lethal but potentially so.

(A blood choke is safe so long as it's not held for too long. An airway choke can kill even if released quickly and ensuring you only do the former, not the latter, take training and practice.)

 

[WAB]

Dragging by the hair is the ultimate form of dehumanization, and would never be the best or only option to remove someone from a space. Never. Hence my absolutism here.

This is the thing I don't understand.

While I'm generally opposed to violence as anything but a last desperate resort, I don't see hairpulling as "the ultimate form of dehumanization.

Maybe because I grew up with sisters, where biting and hairpulling was a regular feature of their squabbles.

To me it's a relatively benign form of applying force. Far less risky than most of the alternatives. And while such behavior would be unconscionable under the overwhelming majority of circumstances, bar bouncers are employed specifically to do things that are ordinarily stupidly brutish. Because sometimes that's the only way to deal with belligerent drunks and those are all to common in bars.

So, your assessment that I would be unsafe around your family is puzzling. I'm one of the least violent people you'll ever meet.
Tom

Tom, I remember saying something like that, but I don't recall even thinking such a thing about you in particular. I've read your posts and I believe you to be a good and rational person.

I regret saying such a thing. It's hyperbole with a liberal touch of cheap whiskey.

I get emotional when it comes to things like this, as I don't react well to seeing any person handled in such a manner, for any reason.

I shouldn't join these kind of threads because inevitably I regret it.

 

[Rhea]

.
The purpose of this board is discussion, not clever flames and crafty insults.
Respond to the topic, not the person.

It looks like the thread has gotten back on track since yesterday - please keep it that way so it doesn’t have to be closed.

.
.

Also - edit your quotes! If that is too hard for you on your phone then don’t quote at all, just respond and type in your brief context. You can reference a post number if you want. When you layer 7,8,9 quotes deep it is impossible to read, especially on the phone, so you’re making it out of reach for other phone users to follow the conversation.

 

[WAB]

Personally, if someone needed to be incapacitated, I would try a choke hold. The person is restrained and rendered unconscious, if done right. If a bouncer can overcome someone well enough to drag them by the hair, then they can put them in a choke hold.

Choke holds require skill to use safely. Used without enough skill they fall into the lethal force category. Not all that lethal but potentially so.

(A blood choke is safe so long as it's not held for too long. An airway choke can kill even if released quickly and ensuring you only do the former, not the latter, take training and practice.)

I've already retracted my choke hold thing, upthread. I do not advocate the choke hold folks!

 

[TomC]

I regret saying such a thing. It's hyperbole with a liberal touch of cheap whiskey.

Haha. I can sympathize all too well. There's a reason I stick to vino, and at home. Beer goes down like soda pop, which leads to bad judgement like ordering shots of Jack Daniels,

and the next thing ya know you're waking up naked and alone in the women's bathroom at a gas station in Georgia.

Tom

 

[Wiploc]

... and the next thing ya know you're waking up naked and alone in the women's bathroom at a gas station in Georgia.

I think I'd rather be dragged by the hair.

 

[WAB]

... and the next thing ya know you're waking up naked and alone in the women's bathroom at a gas station in Georgia.

I think I'd rather be dragged by the hair.

I'm just wondering how Tom wound up naked in a woman's bathroom...

 

[WAB]

I retract my choke hold remarks. That was silly of me.

But I am still dead set against dragging someone by the hair. In fact I cannot conceive of any situation where I would resort to doing that. But if the rest of you can conceive of it, I guess we are just different people.

And you're right, Jarhyn, I am not a fighter. Never claimed to be. Quite the contrary. I despise violence, which means the initiation of violence. I am not a pacifist and I understand that force is necessary when in retaliation to the initiation of force.

I have been in a few fights. One when I was a kid, and somehow I wound up with my tooth in the other kid's head. All my other fights were with my older brother, and I lost all of 'em.

Again, the choke hold thing was I'll conceived. I of course would never do that to someone, and I don't even know how anyway. Nor do I want to know how.

Your argument from Incredulity is just that: mere Incredulity.

The point is that everyone who knows how to or who has any experience in removing someone from a space is in pretty tight agreement that hair dragging is pretty solid depending on the context.

Hair isn't alive and hair does grow back. You'll never live down the image of kicking and screaming like a petulant child as someone removed you from a public space in front of your peers, but she would already never live down the rest of the scene either.

I really hate to keep dragging this out. Why, oh why, do you want someone to be so shamed that they will never live something down, and never forget something that was shameful?

I gather, Jarhyn, that the hair dragging thing is okay by you in a squeeze when dealing with someone who is utterly out of hand, am I right? And, someone who is posing a real threat to others, in this case an anti masker, or, a plague rat. Am I right?

Okay. But why oh why do you seem overjoyed that such a person should go through something that will cause her shame, and shame of such magnitude that she will never live it down, and never forget it? Why does it SEEM to me that you take pleasure in another person's shame? Is that the case, or is my radar all broken?

Please explain. After all, this woman is not a rapist or a child molester, people I believe OUGHT to be shamed, due to the heinous nature of their offense. It is a woman apparently throwing a fit and refusing to wear a mask...

 

[Jarhyn]

I retract my choke hold remarks. That was silly of me.

But I am still dead set against dragging someone by the hair. In fact I cannot conceive of any situation where I would resort to doing that. But if the rest of you can conceive of it, I guess we are just different people.

And you're right, Jarhyn, I am not a fighter. Never claimed to be. Quite the contrary. I despise violence, which means the initiation of violence. I am not a pacifist and I understand that force is necessary when in retaliation to the initiation of force.

I have been in a few fights. One when I was a kid, and somehow I wound up with my tooth in the other kid's head. All my other fights were with my older brother, and I lost all of 'em.

Again, the choke hold thing was I'll conceived. I of course would never do that to someone, and I don't even know how anyway. Nor do I want to know how.

Your argument from Incredulity is just that: mere Incredulity.

The point is that everyone who knows how to or who has any experience in removing someone from a space is in pretty tight agreement that hair dragging is pretty solid depending on the context.

Hair isn't alive and hair does grow back. You'll never live down the image of kicking and screaming like a petulant child as someone removed you from a public space in front of your peers, but she would already never live down the rest of the scene either.

I really hate to keep dragging this out. Why, oh why, do you want someone to be so shamed that they will never live something down, and never forget something that was shameful?

I gather, Jarhyn, that the hair dragging thing is okay by you in a squeeze when dealing with someone who is utterly out of hand, am I right? And, someone who is posing a real threat to others, in this case an anti masker, or, a plague rat. Am I right?

Okay. But why oh why do you seem overjoyed that such a person should go through something that will cause her shame, and shame of such magnitude that she will never live it down, and never forget it? Why does it SEEM to me that you take pleasure in another person's shame? Is that the case, or is my radar all broken?

Please explain. After all, this woman is not a rapist or a child molester, people I believe OUGHT to be shamed, due to the heinous nature of their offense. It is a woman apparently throwing a fit and refusing to wear a mask...

I do not believe in forgiveness.. our shame, the things we will remember and experience again and again a little bit forever, are what shape is into better people. The knowledge that she fucked up so bad she got dragged out of a bar full of people (by her hair, but her shirt, by whatever was a strong enough handle to leverage her with) is a powerful formative experience.

I wish THIS person to have an experience that shapes them FOREVER because I want them to DOUBT the wisdom of listening to whoever told them to do the thing that got them dragged out of a bar by their hair.

Now, whether I ALSO get pleasure from seeing it, well, I'm human. I can't not feel a little good when I see someone get their comeuppance. I'm allowed to have feelings that are complicated. I am entirely allowed as a human to like seeing idiocy yield consequences that may teach them.

All offense is best taught with shame and embarrassment. It is the best outcome, not the worst, when idiocy may be dispelled with a bit of shame.

 

[WAB]

I really hate to keep dragging this out. Why, oh why, do you want someone to be so shamed that they will never live something down, and never forget something that was shameful?

I gather, Jarhyn, that the hair dragging thing is okay by you in a squeeze when dealing with someone who is utterly out of hand, am I right? And, someone who is posing a real threat to others, in this case an anti masker, or, a plague rat. Am I right?

Okay. But why oh why do you seem overjoyed that such a person should go through something that will cause her shame, and shame of such magnitude that she will never live it down, and never forget it? Why does it SEEM to me that you take pleasure in another person's shame? Is that the case, or is my radar all broken?

Please explain. After all, this woman is not a rapist or a child molester, people I believe OUGHT to be shamed, due to the heinous nature of their offense. It is a woman apparently throwing a fit and refusing to wear a mask...

I do not believe in forgiveness.. our shame, the things we will remember and experience again and again a little bit forever, are what shape is into better people. The knowledge that she fucked up so bad she got dragged out of a bar full of people (by her hair, but her shirt, by whatever was a strong enough handle to leverage her with) is a powerful formative experience.

I wish THIS person to have an experience that shapes them FOREVER because I want them to DOUBT the wisdom of listening to whoever told them to do the thing that got them dragged out of a bar by their hair.

Now, whether I ALSO get pleasure from seeing it, well, I'm human. I can't not feel a little good when I see someone get their comeuppance. I'm allowed to have feelings that are complicated. I am entirely allowed as a human to like seeing idiocy yield consequences that may teach them.

All offense is best taught with shame and embarrassment. It is the best outcome, not the worst, when idiocy may be dispelled with a bit of shame.

Thanks for the candid answer. Yes, you and I are different people, and our moral and ethical outlook is vastly different.

 

[TomC]

Thanks for the candid answer. Yes, you and I are different people, and our moral and ethical outlook is vastly different.

I dunno.
Schadenfreude is an all too natural human response to certain conditions. [MENTION=377]Jarhyn[/MENTION]; never suggested he was going to act on it in any way. It's like lust and such. Not admirable, but normal, and as long as you don't kick someone while they're down or something I don't see any big deal.

Especially when it's such a hot topic, cranking people's emotional response. My mother-in-law got C19, and probably from some entitled Trumpish asshole at her Baptist church. She survived, but it was rough because she has a batch of "underlying conditions". I've also seen violently belligerent drunks get their asses handed to them by bar bouncers for messing up other people's party.

Bottom line, I felt a good bit of schadenfreude from this story myself. I just didn't see it as important enough to mention. "Violently belligerent anti-mask drunk gets hair pulled on her way out of bar" mostly just made me snigger.

Tom

 

[WAB]

I understand all of this, but I stand by what I said. My mind will not be changed on the issue (not that you are trying to change my mind).

With all due respect, and perhaps our experiences are vastly different when it comes to bars and belligerent drunks, I have never witnessed a situation that would have called for someone being dragged across the floor by their hair- and let's please not conveniently reduce this to mere "hair pulling".

Now, I have seen many altercations where some asshat was in somebody's face making all kinds of threats and letting their anger overwhelm them. I have seen such altercations end with a bloody nose, a broken mouth, or a blackened eye, and in many situations this punishment was justified. I do not dispute that sometimes someone is acting SO belligerently that a fist is the only or at least perhaps the best method available to resolve things.

Please note I am talking chiefly about altercations among men. I am not advocating hitting someone as being desireable. But such things happen. You can argue that being dragged by the hair causes less physical harm, and while that is true we should be able to recognize that being dragged by the hair is largely a gesture intended to cause lasting shame. It is degrading and dehumanizing. That is the primary purpose of such an act. That it is the best way to remove a potentially threatening individual from a space is absurd. If it were the case, dragging by the hair would be far more common. But it is not common, and it is not common chiefly because it is barbaric.

I still say that this bouncer had plenty of other options. The hair dragging was purposefully intended to give maximum shame, and in this case there may (I do not know, I am speculating, not asserting) have been an element of virtue signalling for the purpose of gaining broad and even worldwide attention.

These things happen, and at the moment "Karens" and "plague rats" are in focus, and it is politically correct to treat them as severely as possible.

My opinion in this case is not going to change.

 

[Wiploc]

I understand all of this, but I stand by what I said. My mind will not be changed on the issue (not that you are trying to change my mind).

Noted.

With all due respect, and perhaps our experiences are vastly different when it comes to bars and belligerent drunks,

I had a couple of exchanges of blows in sixth grade. Nobody injured. Nobody really even discomfited, if I recall correctly. That would be in 1963. That's the sum total of my experience.

I have never witnessed a situation that would have called for someone being dragged across the floor by their hair-

I don't have any trouble imagining situations in which it would be appropriate.

and let's please not conveniently reduce this to mere "hair pulling".

And yet you get expand it by assuming that the primary purpose was to cause lasting shame, to degrade and dehumanize.

... That it is the best way to remove a potentially threatening individual from a space is absurd.

In the video, it looked like the bouncer had her under control. But the woman's own testimony is that she was still able to kick the bouncers legs, so it may not have been entirely effective.

I don't know how to control people and remove them from bars. So I don't know whether the bouncer could have used some better grip. I also don't know how long they tussled, how many other grips the bouncer attempted before she wound up using that one.

I also don't know on how many occasions, and after causing what kind of damage, that patron has previously been ejected from that bar.

If it were the case, dragging by the hair would be far more common. But it is not common, and it is not common chiefly because it is barbaric.

Fights are barbaric. In a fight, you try to win without being killed or injured.

I still say that this bouncer had plenty of other options.

I think you're making that up.

The hair dragging was purposefully intended to give maximum shame,

I don't know why you like that enough to assume it is true without evidence.

and in this case there may (I do not know, I am speculating, not asserting) have been an element of virtue signalling for the purpose of gaining broad and even worldwide attention.

Isn't it the customer who's trying for attention?

These things happen, and at the moment "Karens" and "plague rats" are in focus, and it is politically correct to treat them as severely as possible.

My opinion in this case is not going to change.

More non-facts assembled to support strongly held but apparently arbitrary opinion.

Maybe the bouncer used that technique because it was effective when used on her. Maybe it's her goto, maybe because it works. Maybe it has nothing to do with Karens and plague rats.

 

[WAB]

Your objections are noted, Wiploc.

I stand by everything I wrote. Confidently.

"I don't have any trouble imagining situations in which it would be appropriate."

It would never be appropriate.

 

[blastula]

BTW, Notice that I stripped the extraneous portion of my quote above, to zero in on the part relevant to the sub-topic. I wonder why many TFTers fail to take the time to do this; it helps clarify discussion. (If the answer is: It's hard to edit on a smart-phone, I sympathize.)

Most important comment in this thread.

 

[Jarhyn]

Your objections are noted, Wiploc.

I stand by everything I wrote. Confidently.

"I don't have any trouble imagining situations in which it would be appropriate."

It would never be appropriate.

"It would never be appropriate" by what principle? What non-axiomatic principle can you point to to justify this claim?

 

[jab]

"Submit to my simplistic view without acceptance of nuance or have me say you look stupid".

I would rather "look" stupid do something that is, actually, stupid.

I'm not going to take pity on stupid people being stupid.

I am not going to forgive a bouncer who did something stupid, assuming what they did was, in fact, stupid.

This is what I own: the intelligence to know that there are at most 1 persons in 'the right' here, and that person is certainly not the bar patron. That there at least 1 persons who are wrong, and that number absolutely includes the bar patron.

There is no getting away from these facts. These facts are what the universe owns. I am merely pointing them out. You are the calling it "looking stupid" for doing so.

This is a game with no winners.

You keep wanting there to be a winner, but there isn't. There are just losers. Most of all, the biggest losers are the people who want to "win" something over this in political debate.

All there is here is tragedy, first the tragic stupidity of the plague rat, then the tragic need for a response, and then the tragedy over the response.

The correct, ethical path of this situation was lost the second Karen was told by someone they trusted that masks weren't necessary for social activities.

That unethical ignorance then became a decision to be an asshole in a bar, that unethical decision became a decision to resolve it through violence, that violence is then cried bloody murder over.

You are right about some things, and wrong about other things.

You are right that the situation has no winners. I am not trying to win anything. My posting record, my very candid personality, and my constant self- deprecation ought to clue you in that I am not a competitive person...

But none of this is about me, at least not the situation being commented on.

This discussion is about me, I suppose, and about whoever participates in it. I joined the discussion because I became indignant, and very baffled that so many people would condone, or at least not condemn, an act of unnecessary violence.

You can talk all day about who started the whole mess, okay, the anti masker started it. She was in the wrong. Agreed! Who the hell will say she was not in the wrong? Maybe some fellow anti maskers, maybe TSwizzle? I don't know.

But there are other facts. First, the whole situation could have been diffused had the police been summoned. Short of that, there must have been rational people present who might have talked to the woman calmly and deescalated the situation. Short of that, a person can be forcibly removed from an establishment in the customary ways! Do not tell me that dragging a person by the hair is a common thing. It is not. I've been in bars, I've seen people tossed out. This kind of brutal shit might happen rarely, but it cannot be excusable, it cannot be justified, unless one is in a political discussion and one is compelled to twist the truth and rationalize.

Jarhyn, you and others have said things to the effect that the threat of violence is expedient in getting someone to stop talking, or to calm down, or some such. This only applies to a few contexts: one can do it if one is a police officer, sheriff, or some such lawful authority; a parent can do it justifiably with a particularly ungovernable child. BUT, one adult should never use a threat of violence on another adult or child in normal contexts.

If you were to threaten me with violence because you didn't care for what I was saying, or because I had gotten too loud, or you perceived that I was out of control, I would tell you to go and fuck yourself, and your threats would never silence me. Trust me on this one.

1. a lot of self-deprecation in this post.
2. be wary of someone who feels the need to inform you they have "a very candid personality"

 

[jab]

Take your bullshit about what is and isn't acceptable in a fucking fight and politely blow it out your goddamn ass.

When someone is keen on injuring you however they can on account of you, the bouncer, the collective voice of violence, showing them the door, your job is to do what is necessary to put them on the other side of that door.

Take your sanctimonious bullshit and take it elsewhere. I don't give a flying fuck what you or anyone else who has never been in a fight with a crazed asshole before might say about it.

I would ABSOLUTELY drag someone by the hair if they weren't letting me get any other leverage, aren't intent on just leaving on their own, are threatening continued injury, and I could get that much. They would end up less injured from that than they would ever get from any other method I would have to physically remove someone; all the other methods of actually removing someone from a space would require either submission or unconsciousness, and neither of those things would happen as easily as securing some hair and using that lever.

Yell and scream all you want about that. Calling the police is too fucking slow on account of them being a fucking plague rat exposing the patrons and police in an hour or two.

Why should I care what arbitrary fucking lines you draw?

Thanks, Jarhyn. What I suspect is you've never been in a fight. Or if you have, you lost.

I may be wrong.

But, for all your telling bluster, you've admitted that you would drag someone out of an establishment by the hair. Thanks for that.

Someone that out of hand can and should be rendered inoperative by other means than dragging them out by the hair. If you have actually been in these kind of altercations you would know that.

Show me ONE altercation involving police where a suspect or criminal was dragged across a floor by the hair.

Only knuckle dragging brutes would resort to such brutality. The worst thing is that I know you know that.

The very tone you use in your post reveals your anger. Your colors are showing.

Peace be with you, if you can achieve it. Best of luck.

Thank you WAB for your copious self deprecation in this post.

 

[jab]

I am puzzled that you ignored any substance in my post, but needed to twist my mild joke into "dehumanization."

There wasn't any real substance to your post. Just mental gymnastics of implausible and irrelevant scenarios. The dehumanization of the victim, Bliss, is not twisted. It's what is actually happening on this thread and you have become part of that.

In this case, "the victim, Bliss" is an oxymoron. Did you mean "the scofflaw Bliss", perchance?

 

[jab]

Dragging by the hair is the ultimate form of dehumanization, and would never be the best or only option to remove someone from a space. Never. Hence my absolutism here.

This is the thing I don't understand.

While I'm generally opposed to violence as anything but a last desperate resort, I don't see hairpulling as "the ultimate form of dehumanization.

Maybe because I grew up with sisters, where biting and hairpulling was a regular feature of their squabbles.

To me it's a relatively benign form of applying force. Far less risky than most of the alternatives. And while such behavior would be unconscionable under the overwhelming majority of circumstances, bar bouncers are employed specifically to do things that are ordinarily stupidly brutish. Because sometimes that's the only way to deal with belligerent drunks and those are all to common in bars.

So, your assessment that I would be unsafe around your family is puzzling. I'm one of the least violent people you'll ever meet.
Tom

Same with my sisters. My parents reprehended all fighting, particularly among girls--too unfeminine--but considered biting, deep scratching, and heavy punching even worse than hair pulling. My poor sisters: my parents' religion compelled them to have long hair, and it provided such a handy pull when they got to fighting. We boys had short hair (despite Jesus the Nazarene's example), so it was much harder when we fought to get traction there.