Perception vs. Reality

[Jimmy Higgins]

That logic was so tortured, the UN has opened up an investigation.

 

[Trausti]

This 2016 study examined "All fatalities resulting from use of lethal force by on-duty Law enforcement from 2009 to 2012 in all 17 U.S. states using National Violent Death Reporting System data."

Unlike the data the OP is based upon and most of what is posted in this thread, This data source does not rely solely upon reports created by the officers who killed the "suspects".

"NVDRS is a state-based surveillance system that links data on violent deaths (e.g., suicide, homicide, legal intervention) from death certificates; coroner/medical examiner reports; and LE reports in an incident-based, confidential data set. ...Data abstractors in each participating state review investigative findings from each data source and abstract information on incident circumstances and characteristics of victims and officers using standardized coding guidance. NVDRS also includes two narratives generated by the state abstractor containing a brief description of the incident based on information from the coroner/medical examiner and Law enformcement reports."

Major findings related to race:

"Blacks had 2.8 times the rate of deaths by law enforcement compared with whites"


Among those who died due to lethal force by law enforcement:

Blacks were 50% less likely to be armed.

Whites were 16% more likely to have been deemed "a threat to law enforcement.

"the percentage of “suicide by cop” cases was almost seven times higher for whites than blacks" (27% vs. 4% of deaths for each group).

"Suicide by cop" was determined using "Evidence from witness/Law enforcement accounts suggesting that victim was actively suicidal and engaged in life-threatening or criminal behavior directed at Law enforcement to elicit use of lethal force. Evidence of suicidal intent could include: suicidal behavior/threats during incident, suicide note, prior expression of intent/desire to be killed by LE reported by an informant, taunting/asking LE to kill them during the incident."

In sum, this is evidence that blacks are much more likely to be killed by cops, and yet when they are killed they are less likely than whites to be armed, a threat, or trying to use the encounter to commit suicide.

Oh, so Asians don't exist? (Or are they white adjacent ) Also, according to that, unarmed whites are more likely to be shot than unarmed hispanics. And men are greatly more likely to be shot than women. Maybe it has nothing to do with bias and everything to do with the rate of crime committed by these demographics.

Asians are irrelevant to the discussion and account for too few deaths to apply any meaningful stats. Also, racist attitudes are race specific. No theory or data suggests that racists view Asians and blacks the same.

And overall crime rates are irrelevant to these data. The data show that in fact among those who are killed by police, it is whites who are more likely to have a gun, be a threat, and deliberately engage in the crime of attacking officers in order to provoke them into shooting them. General crime rates cannot account for any of that, and it shows that whites who get shot are the one's more likely be engaged in the kinds of criminal behavior mostly likely to result in a justified shooting.

Unsurprisingly, you lack the basic literacy needed to read a simple table, otherwise you'd have noticed the (a) and (b) superscripts which show that there was no significant difference between whites and Hispanics in their likelihood of being unarmed when killed.

Dude, in that study N=812 over three years. 83% were armed, leaving 139 unarmed persons over three years. Of that, 14.8% were black, or 20 unarmed black people over three years. 6-7 a year, maybe. How does this study in anyway contradict the OP?

 

[ronburgundy]

Asians are irrelevant to the discussion and account for too few deaths to apply any meaningful stats. Also, racist attitudes are race specific. No theory or data suggests that racists view Asians and blacks the same.

And overall crime rates are irrelevant to these data. The data show that in fact among those who are killed by police, it is whites who are more likely to have a gun, be a threat, and deliberately engage in the crime of attacking officers in order to provoke them into shooting them. General crime rates cannot account for any of that, and it shows that whites who get shot are the one's more likely be engaged in the kinds of criminal behavior mostly likely to result in a justified shooting.

Unsurprisingly, you lack the basic literacy needed to read a simple table, otherwise you'd have noticed the (a) and (b) superscripts which show that there was no significant difference between whites and Hispanics in their likelihood of being unarmed when killed.

Dude, in that study N=812 over three years. 83% were armed, leaving 139 unarmed persons over three years. Of that, 14.8% were black, or 20 unarmed black people over three years. 6-7 a year, maybe. How does this study in anyway contradict the OP?

It's a somewhat separate issue from the OP. It's the issue that cops use a lower threshold to justify shooting black people. It contradicts the claim made within the thread that there is blacks are no more likely to get shot under similar circumstances. The ratio of deaths per arrest were used to support that claim, but I already explained why that completely invalid. Basically, "arrest" isn't a wide range of circumstances, and evidence supports that blacks are more likely to be targeted by cops while not engaged in a crime and wind up arrested while defending their rights and physical body from assault by cops.

BTW, one of the only valid aspects of the OP article is that it accepts that blacks are much more likely than whites to be shot by cops, just like this data shows. However, this data directly contradicts attempts to explain that with claims that blacks are just more likely to be armed or more likely to be a threat, engage in suicide by cop, and things that would warrant them being shot more often.

As to the rest of the OP, my first two posts in the thread which you ignored (here and here) already shreds the invalid methodology and the failure to consider the logical implications of the fact that all Americans, liberals and conservatives over-estimate by double the % of blacks in the general population. That fact means that OP data are a result of conservatives wrongly believing that blacks are only shot at a rate more equal to their % of the general population.

 

[ronburgundy]

It is a valid stat. You're totally moving the goalposts by bringing up a real issue as evidence for something it doesn't apply to.

It applies directly to it. It means that black arrests are inflated by racist actions from cops harassing random black people for no cause. It is evidence that cops use a lower threshold to arrest blacks and initiate confrontations that lead to blacks being arrested. That dilutes what "arrests" represent for blacks, and thereby means that the any ratio involving "arrests" does not represent the same conditionalized stat for blacks as it does for whites. It means that if all the arrests that result from cops being racist assholes targeting people for being black were removed from the "arrests" of blacks, then their deaths per arrest rate would be higher than for whites.

That means the the "arrests" denominator for blacks is inflated with people only arrested because of the racial bias by the cops. That would then artificially reduce their deaths per arrests ratio.

Stop and frisk is not an arrest.

Stop and frisk is a blatant violation of civil rights and a clearly racist act that would lead many reasonable self-respecting people to react in ways that are likely to get them arrested by those same racist cops who stopped them for being black in the first place. IOW, stop and frisk is a cop triggered event that inflates arrest stats for blacks and thus inherently deflates deaths per arrest.

IMPORTANT NOTE: The above does NOT imply that whites are generally more likely to engage in crime. That's irrelevant. What it means is that whites rarely get approached and arrested by cops unless they were engaging in behaviors that warrant being stopped, arrested, and have force used against them, whereas just being black is often the sole basis that triggers this sequence of events.

Stop and frisk is more likely to catch white criminals--most stop and frisks are of people who appear to be out of place. With whites a large chunk of these will be people who came into the inner city to buy drugs.

??????
Black:white ratio of those targeted by NYC "Stop & Frisk" is 6:1
Black:white ratio in NYC is about 1:2
Conclusion is that blacks are 12 times more likely than whites to be targeted by NYC "Stop & Frisk"

 

[Derec]

Deaths per arrest is not a valid stat, b/c it is deflated for blacks due their arrests being inflated by police bias. Blacks are twice as likely to be stopped by the cops while while in public prior to being a suspect in any reported crime, and 4 times as likely to experience use of force during such impromptu "street stops" and in traffic stops.

They are also 5x more likely to kill people than whites, according to FBI data.

But that is not politically correct to talk about. The misinformation by media and activists leads to nonsense like black people saying they are afraid to go outside because they fear police or white people might kill them, when the chances of being killed by somebody black are far greater.

Take this ridiculous article. It's about a #BLM protest for Patrick Kimmons, a Rolling 60 Crip from Portland, who was shot by police after he shot two other people.

Reality:
Repeat Offender Sentenced to 60 Months in Federal Prison for Illegal Firearm Possession

The fight began when an individual attempted to punch Hall in the face. In response, Portland resident Patrick Kimmons brandished a firearm and fired three shots into the chest of Hall’s assailant. One of the rounds struck Hall in the hip. Kimmons was then shot and killed by police after running at officers with a firearm and failing to comply with their commands. Within minutes of the shooting, Hall and another subject arrived at Legacy Emanuel Hospital with gunshot wounds and police were notified.

Idiotic Elle article about the protest:
'I'm Tired of Walking in Their White Spaces'

They were making their way to the parking lot on 3rd and Harvey Milk where Kimmons, a 27-year-old Black man, was killed by two white police officers two years ago, on September 30, 2018. He was shot nine times in the back.
[...]
“They talk so bad about my baby. But they didn’t tell y’all about the good part about Pat-Pat,” [Letha Winston, Patrick Kimmons' mother] said. Patrick went to Portland Community College and was raised in a respectful home. Growing up in her family ain’t no joke. If she told you to get up, you got up. “My son was a good man. He took care of his kids. He took care of his baby’s mama. He checked on his mama. He knew what exactly when to do it and how to do it.”

Not a word in this entire BS article about how Patrick Kimmons was armed with a gun ad shot two people right before being shot by police. Not a word. But plenty of racist bullshit. And what's that bullshit about giving "Pat-Pat" credit for what he's supposed to be doing anyway while completely ignoring that he was running around shooting people?

But the most important part right now is this paragraph.

“Get rid of this nasty system that is tearing Black individuals down,” she was saying, louder each time into the mic. ”I fear going outside. I fear leaving my dad’s side. Because me as a light-skinned woman could protect him. I fear that he’ll get pulled over and a cop will shoot him fucking dead. I’m tired of being scared. So I come out here every fucking chance that I get. I am not doing the bare minimum am I?”
No! The crowd shouted.
“I’m tired of walking in their white spaces.”
And now she sounded tired, too.

She "fears" that her dad will be shot by a cop. The number of black people killed by police is very low compared to those killed by black civilians. And vast majority of people killed by police were armed or otherwise attacked the officer. So you can do a lot to minimize your chances of being killed by police whether you are white or black. If you don't do stupid shit like refuse to drop a gun or a knife, you have very little to fear.

 

[Derec]

#BLM has generally become vocal when unarmed black people are killed.

That's not true.
Patrick Kimmons - armed with a firearm.
Keith Lamont Scott - armed with a firearm.
Dreasjon Reed - armed with a firearm.
Walter Wallace - armed with a knife.
Mario Woods - armed with a knife.
And many others.

And even unarmed perps (like #BLM OG Mike Brown) can be dangerous when attacking police as they can overpower and disarm the officer, sometimes with tragic results.

Thankfully, it isn't that common, but still, it is hard to tackle a topic when discussing with a person that has a distorted perception of the truth.

Like your typical #BLMer. Read that pro-#BLM article on Elle that I linked to above. That's "distorted perception of the truth" that rivals even the Qanons.

 

[Derec]

When a population is oppressed badly enough for long enough, the individuals within that population become dangerous to the oppressors.

Black people are not being oppressed in this country. Given all the racial preferences in higher education, hiring and awarding government contracts, it's the opposite of oppression.

 

[Derec]

Therefore, it is acceptable for police officers to kill black people.

It is acceptable for police officers to kill black people when they pose a threat to officers or others. Which is the case in vast majority of police shootings.
The comparison of numbers is there to show that #BLM ignores the far bigger problem but solely focuses on the lesser ones because they can scapegoat hated out-groups (police, white people) for all their problems.

Your argument doesn't work, and we have been through this before.

Of course it works. And yes, we've discussed all this since at least Michael "Gentle Giant" Brown.

Police officers are paid to protect and serve the communities they work in, and have taken an oath to uphold the laws of the land. Common criminals have taken no such oath, nor are they paid to protect and serve the communities in which they live.

So killing people is only wrong if you take an oath to uphold the law or what?
Police shooting Patrick Kimmons were in the wrong because they shot a black man, never mind that he was armed and shooting at people, but Patrick Kimmons was not wrong for shooting at people because he didn't take an oath?

The police serve under the color of the law, which gives them certain rights and privileges common citizens do not generally enjoy.

Correct. It also means that they are required to engage dangerous and violent suspects when regular citizens are advised to get out of here. That means not only that they expose themselves to additional danger, but also they they are more likely to engage in justified deadly force than regular people.

For these reasons, police conduct should be held to a higher standard than the behavior of common criminals. You keep ignoring this point so you can continue to perpetuate your racist opinions.

I don't know about "higher standard" because that can be taken way too far (Jarhyn for example thinks police officers should not shoot unless shot at first) but of course they should be held to all applicable laws. That does not change the fact that #BLMers are hypocrites and also completely wrong when they say that they are "in fear" when going out because they are afraid of being shot by police or white civilians when in reality other blacks pose by far the most danger.

 

[fromderinside]

Derec you need to get a grip on your statistics. The article cited in the OP was an opinion about percent of those killed that were black, not an actual count of those who were killed. And even there it was opined that twenty three percent of those killed by police were black by conservatives. That's more than twice the proportion of black people in the us.

As for your black on black versus pollice vs black? Rhat is a false comparison since blacks are among blacks almost all the time while they are visible to policea mere pittance of the time.

Get real. Here is an article that reports police killed over 1100 young black males in 2019.
Young black men killed by US police at highest rate in year of 1,134 deaths: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/31/the-counted-police-killings-2015-young-black-men

Here's the indictment of police shootings of blacks. Police kill blacks five times the number of times they kill white young males. And, just to be sure we're puffing the right stuff, police are among whites in proportion to to relative populations of each (about 6 to1).

Definitely no racism indicated here. HAH

 

[Derec]

If you've ever been around enough black people for a long enough time you'd have learned years ago that black-on-black crime has always been an issue in our neighborhood and we (the black people that care) go well out of our way to bring attention to it as well try to stop it.

I am sure it is a thing among many black people but it is definitely not a thing among the #BLM and the woke.
The "I am in fear for my life every time I leave the house because I am afraid whitey or police might shoot me" trope is one I have repeatedly seen voiced by the #BLM activists/protesters.

Unbeknownst to you, a part of the solution is creating opportunities where black people can avoid gangs/criminal lifestyles, to begin with.

That's great! More of that. Less rioting and looting and arsoning! What happened throughout 2020 was the wrong way.

This leads us to folks like you who are quick to stand in the way by speaking about nothing but the negative regarding black people further fueling prejudice. If I'm not on your ignore list already this is a great time to add me. You've been warned.

There is nobody on my ignore list. And I also do not have any prejudices. But there is a definite disconnect between reality and what media and activists focus on.

 

[Derec]

That is an incredibly stupid graphic, since the issue is blacks killed by the police not white people.

It would have been better if it said "someone white or police", sure, but white civilians killing black people gets unwarranted amount of attention in the media and among activists. So it's not just police.

Take that guy who was killed in South Georgia. Ahmed something. Because his killers were white, that became national news and Anderson Cooper et al were all over it for months. During those months, dozens of black people have been shot and killed in Atlanta without much fanfare.

 

[Trausti]

Derec you need to get a grip on your statistics. The article cited in the OP was an opinion about percent of those killed that were black, not an actual count of those who were killed. And even there it was opined that twenty three percent of those killed by police were black by conservatives. That's more than twice the proportion of black people in the us.

As for your black on black versus pollice vs black? Rhat is a false comparison since blacks are among blacks almost all the time while they are visible to policea mere pittance of the time.

Get real. Here is an article that reports police killed over 1100 young black males in 2019.
Young black men killed by US police at highest rate in year of 1,134 deaths: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/31/the-counted-police-killings-2015-young-black-men

Here's the indictment of police shootings of blacks. Police kill blacks five times the number of times they kill white young males. And, just to be sure we're puffing the right stuff, police are among whites in proportion to to relative populations of each (about 6 to1).

Definitely no racism indicated here. HAH

Young black men are the most homicidal of any group. (And most of their victims are other young black males.) That they would end up killed disproportionately by police is hardly surprising. And the OP was about the disconnect between perception and reality in accounting for the deaths of unarmed black people. Nothing to do with opinion. If you have different statistics for unarmed black males, do share.

 

[Elixir]

Young black men are the most homicidal of any group.

That's generally true of the most oppressed group in any population. DUH.

 

[scombrid]

Most civilian murders occur within-group. No news there. But police are supposed to be neutral and they are not in far too many jurisdictions. I grew up in a “sunset” town as in “don’t let the sun set on you black ass”. It is still like that in 2021. The white kids mass up in the Kroger parking lot (it was Keen’s car wash and the McDonalds/Hardee’s lots when I was a kid) and cruise on Friday and Saturday night. They drink and do drugs and vandalize things and get in fights. Nothing comes of it. If the black kids massed up like that the riot squad would get called in. Black kids know to stay on their side of town when the sun goes down. The ones that can, keep their noses clean until they go off to college and then the never come back. The others get a job at the packing plant and make sure they are “where they belong” when night falls.

 

[laughing dog]

That is an incredibly stupid graphic, since the issue is blacks killed by the police not white people.

It would have been better if it said "someone white or police", sure, but white civilians killing black people gets unwarranted amount of attention in the media and among activists. So it's not just police.

Take that guy who was killed in South Georgia. Ahmed something. Because his killers were white, that became national news and Anderson Cooper et al were all over it for months. During those months, dozens of black people have been shot and killed in Atlanta without much fanfare.

You mean this Ahmed something  Killing_of_Ahmaud_Arbery - the unarmed black man gunned down by white vigilantes, one of whom is quoted as saying "fucking nigger" as Mr. Arbery dying at their feet. You cannot grasp why this outrageous incident made the national news? Is that because your perception is that vigilante murders are daily events just like other homicides?

 

[Trausti]

Young black men are the most homicidal of any group.

That's generally true of the most oppressed group in any population. DUH.

Example? Yeah, you don't have one. But let us know your mental gymnastics for this: Young Black men and teens are killed by guns 20 times more than their white counterparts, CDC data shows

The analysis, titled "A Public Health Crisis in the Making," found that although Black men and boys ages 15 to 34 make up just 2% of the nation's population, they were among 37% of gun homicides that year.

They're so oppressed that they shoot each other to death. Brilliant, Elixir.

 

[Trausti]

Killings of black people in England and Wales at highest level since 2002

The number of black victims of homicide in England and Wales has climbed to its highest level in nearly two decades, official figures have revealed.

A total of 105 black victims of murder and manslaughter were recorded in the 12 months to March 2020, up from 96 the previous year, and the highest since the 12 months to March 2002, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said.

Black people are more likely to be victims of homicide, the figures show. About 15% of all victims in the period were black, but only 3% of the general population are black. Sixty-four per cent of victims were white, while white people make up 85% of the general population.

In the three years to March last year, the average homicide rate per million population, at 49.5, was about five times higher for black people than white people, at 9.4. The rate of victimisation for black people has soared, a 70% increase when compared with the three years to March 2014.

The figures also show black people are more likely to be perpetrators of homicide and murder. Approximately one in five – or 21% – of convicted suspects were black. About 67% of suspects convicted of homicide were identified as white.

We can't hope to solve a problem until we first acknowledge it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Stop and frisk is more likely to catch white criminals--most stop and frisks are of people who appear to be out of place. With whites a large chunk of these will be people who came into the inner city to buy drugs.

??????
Black:white ratio of those targeted by NYC "Stop & Frisk" is 6:1
Black:white ratio in NYC is about 1:2
Conclusion is that blacks are 12 times more likely than whites to be targeted by NYC "Stop & Frisk"

You're utterly missing the point.

Yes, blacks are stopped and frisked at a very disproportionate rate. That does not mean that whites aren't more likely to be arrested in such stops. Out-of-place blacks are generally just someone in a higher class neighborhood than their appearance. Out-of-place whites are frequently buying drugs.

 

[fromderinside]

Young black men killed by US police at highest rate in year of 1,134 deaths: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/31/the-counted-police-killings-2015-young-black-men

Here's the indictment of police shootings of blacks. Police kill blacks five times the number of times they kill white young males. And, just to be sure we're puffing the right stuff, police are among whites in proportion to to relative populations of each (about 6 to1).

Definitely no racism indicated here. HAH

Young black men are the most homicidal of any group. (And most of their victims are other young black males.) That they would end up killed disproportionately by police is hardly surprising. And the OP was about the disconnect between perception and reality in accounting for the deaths of unarmed black people. Nothing to do with opinion. If you have different statistics for unarmed black males, do share.

The OP is all about opinion about the numbers: "How Informed are Americans about Race and Policing?" https://www.skeptic.com/research-center/reports/Research-Report-CUPES-007.pdf

If you see the numbers of the actuals, my citation, and compare it with the estimates by different persuasions, the OP citation, you'll find both were given in my post which shows a big disconnect between estimates of number skilled and actual numbers killed.

 

[Gospel]

So far in this thread; Black people are more likely to get killed by both Police and black people than white people are. Nice to know some folks are starting to see how fucked up things are for black people. Welcome aboard.